PlumeTomb's one great flaw!!! (How SP's can beat it!)

Rikko145

Rikko145

I put the "laughter" in "slaughter&
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I believe I have found PlumeTomb's greatest flaw. Which Stage 2 does it set up first? They have to keep a Spiritomb active for 2-4 turns to be fully set up, but if they set up Gengar first, they have to break the lock to attack. If they set up Vileplume first, they have no attacker to send up once the Spiritombs are gone! I think that if we SP players can exploit this flaw by Dragon Rush'ing them when they're Stage 1's, we can keep them down long enough to break the lock, get set up, and destroy them. Let me put this into a metaphor. Imagine you, the SP player are a wolf on the hunt. PlumeTomb deck is a moose, and it's your prey, but it has an advantage over you. It's bigger so it can "size" lock you where you are. You want supper? You gotta get it on the ground, where the antlers (Gengar and Vileplume) can't get up in the air to swing at you. You have to attack and hopefully break its legs (the Stage 1's.) Okay, so let's review. They have a choice of which to set up, supposing you either kill the Spiritomb quickly or Dragon Rush their Stage 1. They either:
A.) Have no lock, only an attacker.
or
B.) Have no attacker, only a lock.
Either way, you're sittin' pretty and killing off things that try to set up. So, what do you other SP players think of this? Is this the way to win, or should we use another tactic?
 
So you're assuming they don't play any sort of search/draw cards like Bebe's Search, Uxie, or Professor Oak's New Theory? If they do a Collector with a Spiritomb start can be a Gastly, Oddish, and an Uxie. So if their hand is small enough they can setup for a good amount and if they so happen to find a Broken Time-Space on either a Gloom or Haunter with that Uxie draw that just means they setup a stage 2 off of Spiritomb on T1/2 (depending on who went first). And have you even though of how difficult it is for SPs to pull off a T2 Dragon Rush while under Trainer lock? They would have to god start most of the time (like having a DCE in hand, the Garchomp C Lv.X in hand, start with either a Call Energy or Pokemon Collector in hand or start with Garchomp C (which is I'm sad to say unlikely with only 2-3 in a deck with all basics), and also have a free retreater start if they didn't get to start with Garchomp C so that way they're able to not waste energy. I will admit that it has happened to me but it was some of the luckiest drawing I've ever had.

tl;dr: Very difficult for T2 Dragon Rush and the Gengar/Vileplume player can setup multiple stage twos with Spiritomb and Broken Time-Space by T2/3 thus giving not even a one turn margin to snipe the stage one.
 
It appears to me you could have just said 'Outspeed them' which to be honest is the major flaw with most decks if your beat in either speed or consistency then your pretty much doomed, you maybe be able put up a decent fight and with some luck and alot of effort perhaps even win but chances are slim.

Also note that most Sp decks will outspeed any evolution deck due to the very nature of Sp's, an ambipom G DCE start can wreck VileTomb with its snap attack killing off the tomb before it can do anything and that can be done on the opening turn of the game as well.

In summary VileTomb isn't to stoppable its just learning how to maintain speed under a trainer lock, some times its not a question a question of how hard you hit the wall but where you hit it and in this case when you hit it
 
Sp needs a little luck to out speed it
its possible though

but one thing sp decks can do that ive only seen one person do is limit the damage they take
ive played several games where people play conspiracy, then grab a trainer and supporter without much of a second thought

does it make sense to grab a trainer when you cant play them?

what people need to do is not grab a trainer only grab a supporter if its needed
 
You do realize that this deck can have a set up Vileplume by T2 and at the latest, T3, right?
You can beat it unless they get an awful hand, which is unlikely.
 
I finally was able to watch an exceptionally well built GengarPlume deck vs an equally well built DialgaLuxChomp deck.
It went down to the wire with both parties executing exactly what they wanted the whole game.
In the end they were tied 1-1 and the gengar was able to grab the last prize for the win.

What's amazing is that a deck "designed" to beat an SP deck still came down to the wire and needed a little luck to win. As we know nothing can consistently beat a good SP deck right now. Gengarplume will give it a good challenge.

In accord to the what the OP said, SP decks can still outspeed the plume decks as they can any deck. However, they will need to probably sacrifice a few turns, sprays, gains to make sure they can consistently beat them. Which leaves them open to losses from other speed decks like Donkphan or Jumpluff. Also they will become very weak in mirror matches.
 
1. Most good Plumetombs run Warp Energy, so if they need to set up a Vileplume first, they can Warp Energy out.
2. If not, they run Dodrio.
3. You say once their Spiritombs ARE gone. How do you plan on setting up the attacker to kill Spiritomb, while trying to set up a Garchomp C with a DCE and another energy, with a Garchomp C X ready in your hand, or a heavy attacker with a Luxray GL X ready? UNDER TRAINER LOCK. Setting up Garchomp C X with a basic energy seems plausible, with Cyrus's Conspiracy, by searching for an energy, Bebe's, and something else, but getting a Garchomp C and DCE may add to your troubles. IDK, it's possible, but it seems really hard.
4. If you can KO something, they could just send up another Spiritomb.
5. Most Plumetombs are ready by T3.
 
I believe I can address all of these issues by returning your question with one of my own. How can you keep up the trainer lock if I have a DGX out? I'm obviously going to keep Dragon Rushing anything in the Gengar line to keep clear of level down, and if you do manage to get to Gengar X, I can always Power Spray.
 
Dialgachomp already beats Plumetomb anyway.

We're talking about SPs that have trouble with Plumetomb, no?
 
Meh. Not every deck runs DGX. If that was your contingency, you should've mentioned it in your initial post.

That aside, I figure many Viletomb players will try their own DGX counters. Power Spray will stop Level Down for a while. I've been toying with the idea of Pokemon Reversal, with or without Drifblum UD. It's flippy, but humorously ironic if it works out (ironic that DGX is out to break the trainer lock, which allows the Viletomb player to counter with Reversal).
 
Few questions (coming from someone who has ran LuxChomp for practically a year now):

1) Do you run Dialga G? If no, you're basically screwed. The list that the Senior Champion posted on PokeGym is an exact counter to SP, so you basically have no hope unless you can donk them, or they have a GOD AWFUL start.

2) How many Bebe's do you run? It's not like you can just say "Well I get DGX out, haha, I win."
No... that's not how things work. Spiritomb or Pitch Dark is going to most likely be the first action used, and you're not going to be able to run a single trainer throughout the whole game.

SP need A LOT of luck, and even with DGX, it's still extremely hard. At least if you're playing a good PlumeTomb user, if they're running a bunch of trainers, well that's another story...
 
Harrison covered it. The only way SP can win in this matchup is to abuse garchomp's healing breath, although that only goes so far.
 
LucarioXFroslass- I didn't say it was easy. And, obviously, you're going to be leveling up/warping DGX T2. Dragon Rush away. And when I can't KO something with Dragon Rush? Kill a Spiritomb.
Darkartisan - What!?! Where does Healing Breath even work into the equation? Did you even read half the posts!?!
Absent Gravity - I see your points. But I believe that's why DGX went up 15$ after rotation and will jump more after BR's. Everybody wants it to tech into their SP deck. It's 'The Play' to make.
Banuffin- Along the same lines as Absent Gravity. It's going to be teched into everything that can even remotely use it. And they don't have to infinitely hold off Level Down. Just long enough to take 6 prizes. Let me say another metaphor. (I really like 'em.) There were two men camping in the middle of the woods. One night a rabid bear rips through their tent. One man scrabbles from the tent, screaming. The other quietly bends down and begins lacing his running shoes. The man screaming stops and says, "What are you doing, you idiot!? You can't outrun that bear!" the man with his running shoes now on says, "I know that. I just have to outrun you!"
Tyraniking- Again, I believe it will be in at least 80% of all SP decks.
 
You think you'll be able to hold off Level Down long enough to take 6 prizes? How on earth are you going to accomplish that? Four consecutive Power Sprays? You'd have to draw into a Cyrus and then Cyrus for another Cyrus and the spray 4 turns in a row, meaning your blowing through the bulk of your SP search engine just to prevent DGX from being leveled-down. That means no searching Poketurns, SP Radars, etc to scoop up your damaged Garchomp or find Crobat G for that extra damage.

In the Gengar/Viletomb matchup, 4 Sprays isn't enough to get the job done anyway. Between Vileplume, Spiritomb and Gengar, the *only* thing that Garchomp can one-shot is Spiritomb, so your 4-turn break isn't gonna cut it. Meanwhile, Gengar is still attacking. I don't see you taking 6 prizes before Gengar plows through Garchomp and/or Level Downs your DGX.
 
@Rikko: I agree, especially when Lost World arrives, Dialga will be the perfect side attacker for any deck. Then there's no discussion. We're talking about Chomp sniping before they can set up, then you say that Dialga will be teched. What's the point of discussing Chomp then? Everyone understands once you get a Dialga G X vs. a Plumetomb that's not Gengar, you autowin. The discussion should be either countering Level Down without Sprays or Garchomp sniping Also, sorry to say, you can't spray 4 Level Downs in a row.
 
banuffin - You forget other factors, though. Like the fact that you have to be a Stage 1 and a Basic at some point? That it will take at least 3 (usally more) turns to get a Gengar X out, while only 2 for DGX. And that I control how much damage you do. Level up Dialga, fight it out long enough for me to have some special metals on him, you're doing 0-40 per turn. Because, DUH, I'm not going to sit there with a bunch of trainers! I'll sit with a Cyrus's Conspiracy and a Power Spray. The rest I'll use/put back with SP Radar or Bebe's.

Tyraniking - Why can't I spray 4 in a row? Sure, it's unprobable, but if you were hellbent on doing it, you could. Also, read my post to Banuffin.
 
I would say Dialga just takes just as long to set up. Under trainer lock, you need to depend on Bebe's, Collector, Cyrus's, and Call.
 
Yes, but I'm hitting for 80-100 per turn and getting rid of energies. He's hitting for 0-40 depending on how many special metals I have. If I don't have a Cyrus/Spray? 0 anyways.
 
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