Greninja BREAK

[WastedSkyPirate]

I've been testing this deck for a little while, and saw an interesting tech in one of the lists from US Nationals, mostly for the mirror: Bent Spoon.

Situational at best outside of the mirror, and redundant if Pokemon Ranger has its effect last for the whole game, but it outright wins the mirror, which is awful otherwise. Instead of just trading Shadow Stitchings, Rough Seas healing and N's to stop deck outs, it gives you a chance to still get a few Giant Water Shurikens off, and saving an otherwise horrible match up.

Hi @Doomsday94

I've been testing the deck with Bent Spoon too, thinking it was a fantastic tech for the mirror, unfortunately though I've not found it to be as useful as I first thought. My biggest problem is that it doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to fire off any Giant Water Shurikens as it does not remove existing effects on the turn that you attach it. This means that, after being Shadow Stitched, your opponent has an opportunity to remove it with Startling Megaphone (or Xerosic). Considering the fear of Garbodor, Greninja decks typically run 1 or 2 Startling Megaphone.

I have not yet found a tech/strategy to swing the mirror match (or at least make it less tedious). I'd be interested to hear anyone's ideas for the mirror match in the future.

On a different note, Greninja decks didn't seem to do so well at US Nationals - only 2 placed in the top 64. This comes as a bit of a surprise considering the hype that Greninja received before the tournament (even though at the Origins tournament, just before Nationals, there was a similar lack of Greninja). What does everyone think were the reasons for Greninja's poor performance?

 

[PMJ]

Greninja is more prone to bad starts than Night March, who plays 40 cards in a turn, or Trevenant, who is all but guaranteed to set up the item lock regardless of them going first or second. It's not a Battle Compressor deck and really really really wants to go first. The deck is slow enough as it is. Combined with the potential for poor starts and having to basically give up half the game before you start getting into it, Greninja probably didn't seem like a good choice.

That's to say nothing of the resurgence of Garbodor, who Greninja finds a royal pain. It can be worked around, but Greninja can't really afford not to spam shurikens every turn.

 

[Lanstar]

I think the reason for its low standing was that everyone knew they needed to counter it - and the counters were quite obvious: Shut down its abilities (Garbodor and Hex Maniac), protect your own abilities (Bronzong, or use few abilities at the start), and/or use High HP attackers with Fighting Fury Belt. Doing this, and setting it up before the Greninja Player can, it is quite tough for Grenina Break to counter, given its inconsistent nature at times.

 

[cardgjammer]

Hi @Doomsday94

I've been testing the deck with Bent Spoon too, thinking it was a fantastic tech for the mirror, unfortunately though I've not found it to be as useful as I first thought. My biggest problem is that it doesn't guarantee that you'll be able to fire off any Giant Water Shurikens as it does not remove existing effects on the turn that you attach it. This means that, after being Shadow Stitched, your opponent has an opportunity to remove it with Startling Megaphone (or Xerosic). Considering the fear of Garbodor, Greninja decks typically run 1 or 2 Startling Megaphone.

I have not yet found a tech/strategy to swing the mirror match (or at least make it less tedious). I'd be interested to hear anyone's ideas for the mirror match in the future.

On a different note, Greninja decks didn't seem to do so well at US Nationals - only 2 placed in the top 64. This comes as a bit of a surprise considering the hype that Greninja received before the tournament (even though at the Origins tournament, just before Nationals, there was a similar lack of Greninja). What does everyone think were the reasons for Greninja's poor performance?

I have three reasons that explain Greninja's slide out of top:

1. Fates Collide Bronzong that stops ability loss on bench.

2. Bent spoon to preserve ability.

3. Vileplume's item lock to prevent use of Dive Ball, VS Seeker, Megaphones, etc.

4. Speaking of 3, fast Vespiquen decks and Revitalizers instead of EXes can also wear Greninja down in long run.

^ All in all, it's no wonder Greninja's now no longer at top...

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

I have three reasons that explain Greninja's slide out of top:

1. Fates Collide Bronzong that stops ability loss on bench.

Is that now confirmed and, if so, can you link me to the ruling?

I know that, as of last month, it was with Pokemon Japan's R&D department to rule on. If that really is the case then, you're right, that is a big, big hit for Greninja BREAK decks going into Worlds.

This is the thread on PokeGym (where official rulings are given) that I am anxiously keeping an eye on. No replies as yet!

EDIT: I have just found the official ruling through a Reddit post. It looks like you're right - if Metal Fortress Bronzong is on the bench when the opponent's active is hit by Shadow Stitching, then the existing benched Pokemon and any Pokemon that hits the bench subsequently have their abilities protected.

 

[Sabaku]

I have three reasons that explain Greninja's slide out of top:

1. Fates Collide Bronzong that stops ability loss on bench.

2. Bent spoon to preserve ability.

3. Vileplume's item lock to prevent use of Dive Ball, VS Seeker, Megaphones, etc.

4. Speaking of 3, fast Vespiquen decks and Revitalizers instead of EXes can also wear Greninja down in long run.

^ All in all, it's no wonder Greninja's now no longer at top...

You forgot to mention another reason.

5. Everyone suddenly using Garbodor more often from Darkrai-EX / Giratina-EX to ToadTina to the potential return of M Manectric-EX w/ Garbodor.

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

I have a feeling Greninja will be relegated a few tiers in Standard but it's still a deck to keep your eye on. Unfortunately it's become a bit one dimensional at the moment and the complete reliance on Giant Water Shuriken has become too easy to counter. Garbodor will be very strong in the next format (unless a new tool-removing Trainer is printed or Startling Megaphone/Xerosic are reprinted in Steam Siege) and Greninja still has no answer to M Sceptile-EX.

To bounce back, Greninja will need to:

• Improve its consistency in the opening 1-3 turns.
• Find an answer to Garbodor.
• Find an answer to M Sceptile-EX.
• Solve the tedium of the mirror match.

Unfortunately, by addressing the latter points one decreases the consistency of the deck. Besides, the "answers" to the latter points are more checks than counters (e.g. Startling Megaphone, Weakness Policy and Bent Spoon).

 

[Doomsday94]

One route to consistency and getting past the slower start that I want to test is running 2/3 Wally (maybe even 4, the Jirachi Promo may be less useful if the meta moves away from DCE). Going second, opening Froakie and dropping a Wally + energy is huge, and losing 1 Frogadier is fine. It also allows for Dive Ball + Wally to hit a break the turn after, making it much more likely to get a GWS off.

I honestly feel the drop in play is down largely to Garbodor and how awful the mirror is. The mirror is honestly impossible to win, and if you expect people to play Greninja, playing it as well means you are likely to draw a lot of rounds. As for Garb, there really is no out to it outside of cards which are rotating.

For the M Sceptile match up, would Regice maybe help? Stalls their damage, and also helps in the M-Ray match up, which may become more common post rotation.

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

One route to consistency and getting past the slower start that I want to test is running 2/3 Wally (maybe even 4, the Jirachi Promo may be less useful if the meta moves away from DCE). Going second, opening Froakie and dropping a Wally + energy is huge, and losing 1 Frogadier is fine. It also allows for Dive Ball + Wally to hit a break the turn after, making it much more likely to get a GWS off.

I honestly feel the drop in play is down largely to Garbodor and how awful the mirror is. The mirror is honestly impossible to win, and if you expect people to play Greninja, playing it as well means you are likely to draw a lot of rounds. As for Garb, there really is no out to it outside of cards which are rotating.

For the M Sceptile match up, would Regice maybe help? Stalls their damage, and also helps in the M-Ray match up, which may become more common post rotation.

I like the idea of running a heavier count of Wally. I'll try that too and report back.

Getting past Garbodor post-rotation is made even harder by the absence of Muscle Band. The Greninja player won't even be able to Lysandre-OHKO it, which is clearly pretty disastrous. As for M Sceptile-EX; Regice is a good suggestion but its energy requirements have little synergy with Greninja and playing DCE is undesirable without changing the entire nature of the deck (which may yet be what is required here actually).

 

[PokeDad5]

The problem with Greninja at Nats was it was too easy to counter. I played water toolbox and Quaking Punch completely slowed this deck down early on until I was able to setup for a Grenade Hammer. I did only play against 1 Greninja deck, and we only got through 2 games in that match because of healing with Rough Seas, but it was pretty easy for me to go 2-0 against it with Waterbox. Dark/Tina handled it easy because of Garbodor. NM was setup too fast and would just Lysandre out the most evolved form for a OHKO. It's going to have a tougher time now relying on Xerosic or tool scrapper to be able to remove the ability lock from Garbodor since Megaphone is going to rotate.

 

[Evader]

For the M Sceptile match up, would Regice maybe help? Stalls their damage, and also helps in the M-Ray match up, which may become more common post rotation.

I've tried Regice and it was bad, mainly due to its huge retreat cost but also due to the 3Energy attack cost (and you only use basic energies...). To run something like that you'll need Float Stone or Olympia (since AZ will not be in Standard anymore) and something to accelerate energies on it. I found Glaceon EX (also works with M-Ray) better: less retreat, it can also use its first 2Energy attack.
However, giving up 3-5 cards only to deal with a deck that most of the time you can do nothing against is a bad choice.
Right now I'd say run 1-2 Jamming Net or Head ringers. It disrupts the 1-turn Sceptile EX m-evolution and also, unless they have an Ariados on the bench, they will probably need 2 turns to KO a Greninja break. Even like this, giving up 2 cards can be huge for this deck and doesn't guaranty anything vs M-Sceptile.

Lastly, I don't think that there won't be a new card (or a reprint) to discard Garb's item, but we'll just have to wait until then.

 

[Doomsday94]

I've tried Regice and it was bad, mainly due to its huge retreat cost but also due to the 3Energy attack cost (and you only use basic energies...). To run something like that you'll need Float Stone or Olympia (since AZ will not be in Standard anymore) and something to accelerate energies on it. I found Glaceon EX (also works with M-Ray) better: less retreat, it can also use its first 2Energy attack.
However, giving up 3-5 cards only to deal with a deck that most of the time you can do nothing against is a bad choice.
Right now I'd say run 1-2 Jamming Net or Head ringers. It disrupts the 1-turn Sceptile EX m-evolution and also, unless they have an Ariados on the bench, they will probably need 2 turns to KO a Greninja break. Even like this, giving up 2 cards can be huge for this deck and doesn't guaranty anything vs M-Sceptile.

Lastly, I don't think that there won't be a new card (or a reprint) to discard Garb's item, but we'll just have to wait until then.

Yup, I tested yesterday and it was awful. The Net / Ringer are no good, they rotate out, which is when M Sceptile becomes a threat. However, I'm not convinced with Glaceon, at least Regice is useful in other match-ups.

I've also been racking my brains for something for the mirror, mostly because I'd actually like it to end. The only idea so far is to run a Bronzong from Fates Collide. Seeing as the mirror sucks enough that you can always get 2 breaks out, you can use Bronzong to to keep the benched useful. Obviously, the high retreat is a problem, so it would be best to run Float Stone too. This clears up the problem with Regice.

Honestly, Regice and the Bronzong deal with two of the more problematic match-ups, apart from Garb. But, playing a build focused around getting the GWS off early means picking up a KO on a Trubbish is possible. To help with the speed of the deck, I might test 2x Shaymin and Ultra Balls, it grabs all the pieces, discards dead cards in certain match ups and can help hit the T1 Frogadier Water Duplicates.

For the deck to work next format, its gonna need a fairly large adjustment.

 

[Evader]

Yup, I tested yesterday and it was awful. The Net / Ringer are no good, they rotate out, which is when M Sceptile becomes a threat. However, I'm not convinced with Glaceon, at least Regice is useful in other match-ups.

I've also been racking my brains for something for the mirror, mostly because I'd actually like it to end. The only idea so far is to run a Bronzong from Fates Collide. Seeing as the mirror sucks enough that you can always get 2 breaks out, you can use Bronzong to to keep the benched useful. Obviously, the high retreat is a problem, so it would be best to run Float Stone too. This clears up the problem with Regice.

Honestly, Regice and the Bronzong deal with two of the more problematic match-ups, apart from Garb. But, playing a build focused around getting the GWS off early means picking up a KO on a Trubbish is possible. To help with the speed of the deck, I might test 2x Shaymin and Ultra Balls, it grabs all the pieces, discards dead cards in certain match ups and can help hit the T1 Frogadier Water Duplicates.

For the deck to work next format, its gonna need a fairly large adjustment.

I find both Regice and Glaceon useless in this deck. I'm just saying that if I were to choose between one of them I'd go with the Glaceon because, even if it's a 2prize card, you can use your first attack in combination with one GWS and deal a good amount of damage. (not against M-Sceptile, that card is just cancer vs Greninja).
Also I gave the Jamming Net/Head Ringer example to point out that even with 2 copies of these cards currently in your deck you can't be sure that you can deal with MSceptile (even get a draw <- best case scenario). I'm not playing any of these 2 copies (although I've used to, I found them to be useless versus decks that are not MSceptile). I just think you'll have to accept that there's not much to do vs a MSceptile and try to stall/hope your opponent gets bad draws or just hope you don't get to play with one (how many people use it anyways, it's only really good vs Greninja and Greninja is seeing a decline in play).

Right now (Greninja Break is my main deck) I'm not even using octillery because having a pokemon with more than 1 retreat cost lysandred can cost your game if you are not prepared to switch it back right away. In total I gave up 3-4 cards that I replaced with N/Ace Trainer/Sycamore for better consistency (just like the current deck list on this thread).
The deck works better like that, especially when having to go vs Item lock (which is really famous in my local league). However after the Item lock/NM rotation there will be room for adjustments but we also have to hope for new tech cards (or reprints).

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

@Doomsday94 Agreed.

One thing to note post-rotation; Jirachi probably won't be needed in Greninja. The two big decks that exclusively use DCE are Night March and Vespiquen; NM is rotating outright, whilst Vespiquen won't be nearly as potent because Battle Compressor is rotating too.

 

[Evader]

@Doomsday94 Agreed.

One thing to note post-rotation; Jirachi probably won't be needed in Greninja. The two big decks that exclusively use DCE are Night March and Vespiquen; NM is rotating outright, whilst Vespiquen won't be nearly as potent because Battle Compressor is rotating too.

There will be decks that Jirachi will be able to stall in order to give you room to set up Greninjas:
Darkrai/Giratina, MRay (will most probably use DCE), YveltalEX with Zoroark variants, Gallade (if we find a new way to get it out with Maxie).

However I'm with you on this one, Jirachi will probably see a decline in play/use (maybe just 1 copy instead of 0).

Apart from that, do you think that we can try and get Greninja's out using Rare candies? Right now this is out of the question because of the existence of item lock, but do you think that it will be viable after the rotation? This way you can also use 2-4 copies of wally and be able to GWS on your second turn!

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

More food for thought - is Rough Seas really a staple in this deck?

It feels like a luxury card most of the time and is one of the reasons the mirror match is so tedious. Through testing, I'm leaning towards Silent Lab instead. It can really slow down certain decks, especially those reliant on Shaymin-EX to *cough* setup, and it shuts off Wobbufet allowing you to GWS.

 

[PMJ]

I like it. It gives you Stadium control and keeps you healthy. You can still attack through Wobbuffet and unless you're heavily damaged already he isn't gonna do much back to you.

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

I like it. It gives you Stadium control and keeps you healthy. You can still attack through Wobbuffet and unless you're heavily damaged already he isn't gonna do much back to you.

My point re. Wobbufet was more of a bonus of Silent Lab; the real benefit is slowing your opponent down. Unless your opponent has a counter Stadium/Delinquent in hand, an early game Silent Lab can dictate the pace of their play by blocking Shaymin-EX and Hoopa-EX (among others). In the mirror match, you can gain some momentum by using your opponent's Rough Seas before bumping it with Silent Lab.

Trevenant is the only matchup where Rough Seas is obviously the better choice.

 

[PMJ]

I think that's kinda what made it a staple; it was basically a win condition against Trevenant if you could keep it in play. Erasing a turn of Silent Fear was more than enough reason to include it.

With Trevenant as we know it dead, though, it might be less important to include.

 

[Evader]

I think that's kinda what made it a staple; it was basically a win condition against Trevenant if you could keep it in play. Erasing a turn of Silent Fear was more than enough reason to include it.

With Trevenant as we know it dead, though, it might be less important to include.

Exactly. I'm running 3 Rough Seas + 1 Delinquent (although I love this card in general) just to be able to deal with the Trevenant decks in my league.

As we can already see after the rotation there will be a lot of space in this deck for some techs to deal with new threats or just help us with new strategies.