Discussion Cards Rotating Out

[crystal_pidgeot]

So I've been thinking about this more, and I'd like to throw out a question to the more experienced, veteran pokemon players:

Has pokemon ever had a time in its past where it's only carried 3 or 4 expansions in its Standard format?

If yes, then I think we should be prepared for a rotation through Evolutions. If not, then we'll probably still have everything Breakthrough on.

Right now, my money's on Breakthrough on. I really doubt that Pokemon's going to rotate out 8 or 9 expansions. It's just going to <bleep> too many people off.

There was a format with Sabledonk which forced them to remove all of the remaining D/P/Pt sets (both pre and post SP) and go right to HGSS-On. The rotation was also done 3 to 4 months ahead of normal rotation. This was due because of Sableye and new rules/mechanics of the block. This is why I believe rotation will be Evolutions-On.

Going to be real. I think essentially rotating everything released prior to October 2016 seems like a terrible idea. There was a lot of money invested in those cards and to only get one season of play from them is ridiculous in my opinion. Honestly, I think losing VS Seeker + Trainer's mail alone does a metric ton to slow down the format. Add Shaymin to that list and I think the format will naturally be slow even rotating 4 sets.

I would stop looking at things as "X spent money" so we can't do this. We all spend money on the game, some more so than others. I personally spend thousands on singles in the past year or so and they will rotate out. This is just the simple nature of card games like Pokemon. We also have a expanded format where all of those cards can be used. Yeah, it will suck but if its for the betterment of the game, then so be it.

 

[Fayld]

I would stop looking at things as "X spent money" so we can't do this. We all spend money on the game, some more so than others. I personally spend thousands on singles in the past year or so and they will rotate out. This is just the simple nature of card games like Pokemon. We also have a expanded format where all of those cards can be used. Yeah, it will suck but if its for the betterment of the game, then so be it.

If there was anything in the format that was truly game breaking, I would agree with you. There isn't though and that has been born out by the fact that so many decks have done well in this format. I would argue that the format is actually pretty healthy right now and that there isn't an "emergency rotation" required like one was with the Sabledonk example you gave. Right now, the most "defining" aspect of the format as a whole is the complete lack of trainer based tool removal giving rise to Garbodor havinga lot of power. That isn't something that requires a full set rotation. That is something that requires a reprint of one of several cards or a new card that does something different.

So yeah, without any truly destructive decks out there, I believe it would be in very poor form for Pokemon to rotate anything released in 2016. While spending that amount of money and having it only pay dividends in the primary format (and Standard is definitely the primary format) is expected to some degree, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a blended format for a year either. There are already cards coming out that are intended to handle exactly that type of format. Outside of trying to make the GX line the primary focus for the next season, there isn't much reason at all to rotate the 2016 sets.

We have had this discussion before though, and we probably aren't going to agree on this one

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

If there was anything in the format that was truly game breaking, I would agree with you. There isn't though and that has been born out by the fact that so many decks have done well in this format. I would argue that the format is actually pretty healthy right now and that there isn't an "emergency rotation" required like one was with the Sabledonk example you gave. Right now, the most "defining" aspect of the format as a whole is the complete lack of trainer based tool removal giving rise to Garbodor havinga lot of power. That isn't something that requires a full set rotation. That is something that requires a reprint of one of several cards or a new card that does something different.

So yeah, without any truly destructive decks out there, I believe it would be in very poor form for Pokemon to rotate anything released in 2016. While spending that amount of money and having it only pay dividends in the primary format (and Standard is definitely the primary format) is expected to some degree, I don't think there is anything wrong with having a blended format for a year either. There are already cards coming out that are intended to handle exactly that type of format. Outside of trying to make the GX line the primary focus for the next season, there isn't much reason at all to rotate the 2016 sets.

We have had this discussion before though, and we probably aren't going to agree on this one

The main problem is the mixing of the two formats. Sun and Moon is fundamentally different from BW/XY and as a game designer, you want to balance your "new thing" and doing so against the old thing isn't the best thing to do just so you can keep. This isn't a simple expansion for a MMO where the new addition add to the old. Since Sun and Moon is looking to slow the game down and have a focus on evolution, removing the big basics that can get going in a turn will help balance Sun and Moon. If the rotation isn't deep, then XY cards existing in SM could affect card design.

 

[Fayld]

The main problem is the mixing of the two formats. Sun and Moon is fundamentally different from BW/XY and as a game designer, you want to balance your "new thing" and doing so against the old thing isn't the best thing to do just so you can keep. This isn't a simple expansion for a MMO where the new addition add to the old. Since Sun and Moon is looking to slow the game down and have a focus on evolution, removing the big basics that can get going in a turn will help balance Sun and Moon. If the rotation isn't deep, then XY cards existing in SM could affect card design.

Thing is, in the games I have played against S&M decks, they haven't seen *that* much slower because there is a lot of tech that helps in setup. This has been especially true of the Basic / S1 GXs. I will grant you that I haven't seen a Solgaleo / Lunala / Incineroar deck yet though and those would be the ones that require the most amount of setup. I have seen a Primarina deck, but I honestly can't say what I thought of it because I was messing around with a Primal Kyogre deck which is every bit as slow lol!

I get what you are saying about trying to stylistically make the two sets work isn't as simple as "flip a switch" and "taddah!" I honestly think that what Pokemon is doing is gauging the effect the two sets have together on the S2 GX variants over the next several tournaments before they make any kind of rotation decision. Personally, I have found that I like blending the sets, but will readily admit that more of my decks are based outside S&M than inside it.

I would like to see how things go first though. If even making those S2 GX's as outstanding as they are still can't get people to really build decks for them outside of Decidueye which has FoGP, then I think you are probably right and it might be time to rotate. If we start seeing viable S2 based GX decks though, I think they rotate everything prior to BT.

Curious. Do you happen to know how S&M S2 decks have fared in Japan?

 

[jessalakasam]

Going to be real. I think essentially rotating everything released prior to October 2016 seems like a terrible idea. There was a lot of money invested in those cards and to only get one season of play from them is ridiculous in my opinion. Honestly, I think losing VS Seeker + Trainer's mail alone does a metric ton to slow down the format. Add Shaymin to that list and I think the format will naturally be slow even rotating 4 sets.

You never know we have 2 sets releasing before rotation they could reprint Mail and Seeker, and maybe give us a Shaymin-like card

 

[Fayld]

You never know we have 2 sets releasing before rotation they could reprint Mail and Seeker, and maybe give us a Shaymin-like card

I hope we never see a card like Shaymin again. It is a great card, but when most decks require 2 and up until recently 2 would set you back 110-120 dollars, I don't think that is good for the game.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Thing is, in the games I have played against S&M decks, they haven't seen *that* much slower because there is a lot of tech that helps in setup. This has been especially true of the Basic / S1 GXs. I will grant you that I haven't seen a Solgaleo / Lunala / Incineroar deck yet though and those would be the ones that require the most amount of setup. I have seen a Primarina deck, but I honestly can't say what I thought of it because I was messing around with a Primal Kyogre deck which is every bit as slow lol!

I get what you are saying about trying to stylistically make the two sets work isn't as simple as "flip a switch" and "taddah!" I honestly think that what Pokemon is doing is gauging the effect the two sets have together on the S2 GX variants over the next several tournaments before they make any kind of rotation decision. Personally, I have found that I like blending the sets, but will readily admit that more of my decks are based outside S&M than inside it.

I would like to see how things go first though. If even making those S2 GX's as outstanding as they are still can't get people to really build decks for them outside of Decidueye which has FoGP, then I think you are probably right and it might be time to rotate. If we start seeing viable S2 based GX decks though, I think they rotate everything prior to BT.

Curious. Do you happen to know how S&M S2 decks have fared in Japan?

Those decks are doing well because of the current card pool. SM cards are too slow. Stage 1 Pokemon have always been in a odd limbo but Decidueye GX is good because of FoGP. Now we don't know if any card will get reprinted but if the game remains slow because people are trying to force speed out of the game instead of moving on, we could see reprints of the speed cards we see now, which mean the game will devolve to what it is now.

 

[jessalakasam]

I hope we never see a card like Shaymin again. It is a great card, but when most decks require 2 and up until recently 2 would set you back 110-120 dollars, I don't think that is good for the game.

they don't have to make it a GX they could make an uncommon or rare with the same effect, like Uxie....

 

[xaej806]

It's not just about slowing it down, though. It's about making it possible for evolutions (other than Greninja), meaning stage 1 and 2 GX's for example, to viably prize trade with big basics and/or megas when you have to evolve twice or Rare Candy.

If it's determined that doing so won't be possible/reasonable, I think you'll see more, rather than less, sets get rotated so they can promote their new cards, without having them just be binder bound.

As far as for the financial side goes, I think they can reach a happy middle ground by rotating expanded to XY-on. If standard is EVO-on (which is an extremely evolution-focused format) and expanded is XY-on, you have two EXTREMELY different & healthy formats. The only caveat to this is that the number of expanded tournaments should probably be increased as well. This will help get players more time out of their shiny expensive cards they invested in during the XY-era, make expanded more reasonable by dumping the old BW cards, and make standard a more evolution-focused environment to support the new GX mechanic.

 

[Otaku]

I've been meaning to post to this thread sooner rather than later, but I wanted to be all fancy by having a nice spreadsheet containing most of the information I have in my head. Well, that didn't happen, but you can see the work in progress here. XD
So some things to ponder:

• Mean (average) sets rotated: 4 (rounded up)
• Median (middle value) sets rotated: 4
• Mode (most common value) sets rotated: 4
• Minimum sets rotated: 0 (happened only once)
• Maximum sets rotated: 7 (happened only once).
• Rotation included final set of the previous block: Never happened before
• I get the impression that mini-sets are afterthoughts, like promos, but no concrete proof of that

I do not think that the SM-era is, mechanically, all that different from the XY-era or even BW-era. Pokémon-GX are just tweaked Pokémon-EX. It could be that the big changes are being saved for once we've jettisoned the XY expansions from Standard, but they still have to play nicely with them in Expanded so I doubt it. I allow for it (especially as a long term thing), I just doubt it. I've gone on at length, though unfortunately in random message board posts, or as tangents in a handful of articles not focused on the fact, but for those (like myself) looking for a slower paced, better-balanced format, we have seen next to nothing to suggest that. I can go into detail, but if I do that here it will likely get ignored (long enough post already), plus it might be a bit off topic.

 

[21times]

Otaku, you're my hero. If I ever meet you, I will buy you lunch for this.

This kind of statistical analysis is EXACTLY what this game needs.

Thanks so much for taking the time to complete this.

 

[Otaku]

@21times Undeserved compliments mean I quickly finish what I said was a work-in-progress. XP Well, "finish" is a strong word. There are probably errors, and a lot of this information is second hand as my memory is nowhere near that good, and the official announcements have long since been deleted. Some data wasn't available even from the secondhand source I used. I haven't finished formatting it, and am debating rearranging the data to see if I can get something less clunky looking.

Still, this should help the discussion here.

 

[PineDog]

I want a FAC-On format personally, I want this because of Alolan Muk. A good point @PMJ pointed out, as the future standard seems to be built around Stage 1 and Stage 2 decks (most notably Decidueye-GX and Solgaleo-GX/Lunala-GX) Alolan Muk seems to be a good telling point. It prevents the issue with the BW & XY era, the big EX's preventing any chance of most stage 2's and Mega's from being played, as they added speed requiring you to merely place it on your bench, the GX mechanic requires you to work up to them. Of the two basic GX cards we have (not including Snorlax-GX,) they both are good situationally, Lapras-GX with WaterBox, and Tauros-GX with Ninja Boy, but are by no means, heavy hitters. Alolan Muk prevents big basics from becoming too powerful, letting evolutions pass, but shutting down basics, while Garbodor just shut down everything. And by getting rid of the pre-Fates Collide EX's you eliminate Wailord-EX, Shaymin-EX, Hoopa-EX, Giratina-EX, Lugia-EX, Manaphy-EX, Espeon-EX, Darkrai-EX, Jolteon-EX, and Flareon-EX. A bunch of powerful, or consistent easy to place down basics that will slow down GX's chance of being competitive if they still have to deal with these. To be honest, though Generations can stay if it wants, as it's not a great set, with the Wonly great card being Flareon-EX & Jolteon-EX. I decided to get rid of it just since it's sub-set, and I would just limp that with Breakpoint, but of any sets Breakpoint needs to go. Leaving the only exceptions to this rule being Zygarde-EX, Volcanion-EX, and Pidgeot-EX as the good EX's, which are by no means to overpowered that they undo GX cards. I don't think it's that much of a coincidence that after Generations, they seemed to nerf EX cards.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I want a FAC-On format personally, I want this because of Alolan Muk. A good point @PMJ pointed out, as the future standard seems to be built around Stage 1 and Stage 2 decks (most notably Decidueye-GX and Solgaleo-GX/Lunala-GX) Alolan Muk seems to be a good telling point. It prevents the issue with the BW & XY era, the big EX's preventing any chance of most stage 2's and Mega's from being played, as they added speed requiring you to merely place it on your bench, the GX mechanic requires you to work up to them. Of the two basic GX cards we have (not including Snorlax-GX,) they both are good situationally, Lapras-GX with WaterBox, and Tauros-GX with Ninja Boy, but are by no means, heavy hitters. Alolan Muk prevents big basics from becoming too powerful, letting evolutions pass, but shutting down basics, while Garbodor just shut down everything. And by getting rid of the pre-Fates Collide EX's you eliminate Wailord-EX, Shaymin-EX, Hoopa-EX, Giratina-EX, Lugia-EX, Manaphy-EX, Espeon-EX, Darkrai-EX, Jolteon-EX, and Flareon-EX. A bunch of powerful, or consistent easy to place down basics that will slow down GX's chance of being competitive if they still have to deal with these. To be honest, though Generations can stay if it wants, as it's not a great set, with the Wonly great card being Flareon-EX & Jolteon-EX. I decided to get rid of it just since it's sub-set, and I would just limp that with Breakpoint, but of any sets Breakpoint needs to go. Leaving the only exceptions to this rule being Zygarde-EX, Volcanion-EX, and Pidgeot-EX as the good EX's, which are by no means to overpowered that they undo GX cards. I don't think it's that much of a coincidence that after Generations, they seemed to nerf EX cards.

This is part of the reason I believe the correct rotation would be Evolutions because it seems the EX Pokemon printed in the set just aren't that powerful as opposed to leaving something like Volcanion-EX or Xerneas in the format.

 

[Latte1504]

When this topic came up last year, I said a cut to BKT and then SM1 the year after. Both sets go with mechanics and that is generally how TPCi rotates sets. Here is a list of the past rotations back to the emergency 2010 rotation and a reason/mechanic

2011:MJD-on to HS on-emergency
2012:HS to BW-Generstion
2013:BW to NXD-Pokémon EX
2014:NXD to BCR-Ace Speks
2015 BCR to XY-Generation/Megan's
2016 XY to PRC-Ancient Traits

This is why I predict these rotations due to mechanics.

2017 PRC to BKT-Breaks
2018 BKT to SM-GXs/generations

Here are the reasons why the rotation will not rotate to BKP-on

It cuts the break era apart. There are also no broken cards in BKT

Expanded will stay BW on. Most BW cards are either support or 1-of trainers. There is also no reason to rotate this year as opposed to last year. Even if we rotate to XY on, Battle Compressor stays. It is easily the most broken card.

 

[Otaku]

@PineDog (and I guess as @PMJ as he references you):

The notion that Pokémon-GX are going to give us a balanced format (Stage wise), or at least Evolution dominant one is greatly exaggerated. Our sample size for Pokémon-GX is quite small; sure Lapras-GX and Snorlax-GX are unimpressive, but Tauros-GX is one of the best cards in Sun & Moon, even without Ninja Boy. Yes, the other best cards of the set are Evolutions, but look at them... what about being a Pokémon-GX makes them great? Effects they could have had without being Pokémon-GX and increased HP that makes them worth two Prizes instead of one. Decidueye-GX is probably the best example (and possible best card of the set): its best feature is its Ability. Yes the high HP is great and the GX attack handy, but if tomorrow we got a Decidueye with just 140 HP but it still had Feather Arrow? Betting most strategies would best fit the smaller one that is worth only half as many Prizes.

I am not saying that Evolved Pokémon-GX are not good, but I am saying that the current format has a variety of Stages playing key roles and that the shift is likely to be minimal. What remains the same is that the ridiculously powerful stuff that makes up only a fraction of the expansion? That is the same as it ever was. =/

It cuts the break era apart. There are also no broken cards in BKT

They have split mechanics like this before. Your definition of "broken" does not necessarily match TCG R&D's definition. Granted, I disagree with their definition a lot of the time, and we know they make mistakes (Lysandre's Trump Card), but they also know what will be releasing in the near future. That means something we would think is not broken, could legitimately be because of cards they won't even have planned until closer to the next rotation.

Expanded will stay BW on. Most BW cards are either support or 1-of trainers. There is also no reason to rotate this year as opposed to last year.

I... don't see these as actual reasons. A card can be support or a one-of and still be so potent the game would be healthier without it... however, I don't think that will be the real deciding factor. Remember, balancing a TCG is hard and even if the vast majority of the BW-block is unimportant, that just makes it harder for the-powers-that-be to sift through it and find out what actually is. There is always a chance (though sometimes so improbable as to be functionally impossible) for a new card to break an older card. Again we've got a nice example thanks to bannings: Forest of Giant Plants is clearly broken, but as it is the new card, Shiftry (NXD) got the ax instead. Shiftry was just flippy filler until we had way to quickly spam its Ability.

Edit: Also, I have no idea what my tone seems like with this post. In hindsight, that means I ought to have held off commenting. ^^'

 

[PineDog]

@PineDog (and I guess as @PMJ as he references you):

The notion that Pokémon-GX are going to give us a balanced format (Stage wise), or at least Evolution dominant one is greatly exaggerated. Our sample size for Pokémon-GX is quite small; sure Lapras-GX and Snorlax-GX are unimpressive, but Tauros-GX is one of the best cards in Sun & Moon, even without Ninja Boy. Yes, the other best cards of the set are Evolutions, but look at them... what about being a Pokémon-GX makes them great? Effects they could have had without being Pokémon-GX and increased HP that makes them worth two Prizes instead of one. Decidueye-GX is probably the best example (and possible best card of the set): its best feature is its Ability. Yes the high HP is great and the GX attack handy, but if tomorrow we got a Decidueye with just 140 HP but it still had Feather Arrow? Betting most strategies would best fit the smaller one that is worth only half as many Prizes.

I am not saying that Evolved Pokémon-GX are not good, but I am saying that the current format has a variety of Stages playing key roles and that the shift is likely to be minimal. What remains the same is that the ridiculously powerful stuff that makes up only a fraction of the expansion? That is the same as it ever was. =/



They have split mechanics like this before. Your definition of "broken" does not necessarily match TCG R&D's definition. Granted, I disagree with their definition a lot of the time, and we know they make mistakes (Lysandre's Trump Card), but they also know what will be releasing in the near future. That means something we would think is not broken, could legitimately be because of cards they won't even have planned until closer to the next rotation.



I... don't see these as actual reasons. A card can be support or a one-of and still be so potent the game would be healthier without it... however, I don't think that will be the real deciding factor. Remember, balancing a TCG is hard and even if the vast majority of the BW-block is unimportant, that just makes it harder for the-powers-that-be to sift through it and find out what actually is. There is always a chance (though sometimes so improbable as to be functionally impossible) for a new card to break an older card. Again we've got a nice example thanks to bannings: Forest of Giant Plants is clearly broken, but as it is the new card, Shiftry (NXD) got the ax instead. Shiftry was just flippy filler until we had way to quickly spam its Ability.

Edit: Also, I have no idea what my tone seems like with this post. In hindsight, that means I ought to have held off commenting. ^^'

I do see your points and I do agree with them. I do apologize that in my post I seemed a little too eager to post it without taking the small sample size into account. Although I in no way believe we'll ever end up with a balanced format, my thoughts were that rotating to Fates Collide on will give us a somewhat slower format, mostly due to the rotation of Shaymin-EX and Hoopa-EX, which will be good in my opinion. I also am not saying I just think the GX cards are going to be the greatest thing in the format. Pokemon appears to be trying to push out the evolution based Pokemon. It's merely me taking stabs in the dark based upon what we have gotten from the first set. I was using GX cards as the example, since they are the main ultra rare from Sun & Moon, and because it was easiest to pull examples from them.

 

[Otaku]

@PineDog

Ah, thanks for the clarification. See, I think what would help is less filler in general. Less filler among Evolutions is a good start! At the same time, it feels like TPC is trying to do the time warp to some degree, and take us back to the EX (Gen III) era. Pokémon-GX removed one of the two things that made Pokémon-EX different from Pokémon-GX: Pokémon-GX are not either Basics or Mega Evolutions, but the appropriate Stage of Evolution. That is one difference; the other is just that the rules clearly state that Pokémon-EX do not count as Pokémon-ex (and vice versa). Now during Gen III, the TCG seemed more balanced to me... but that was coming off the original imbalance of the Gen I days (...actually a lot like now) and Gen II era (post "normal Trainer" nerf, pre-Supporter era).

To avoid confusion on my stance, let me preface what I am about to say with how I think generic Evolution acceleration causes more harm than good. Got that? Okay, so pre-erratum Rare Candy is a huge reason Pokémon-ex Evolutions could dominate the metagame of the time. I don't want that back, but just something for people to remember when they are all ginned up and expecting so much out of contemporary Evolutions. Toss in Garbodor (XY: BREAKpoint 57/122) and a lot of what we got is going to be functional, but not competitive.

At least those are my early, somewhat pessimistic, predictions.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

The main reason I believe the rotation for Standard will be Evolutions-On and Expanded will be XY-On is simply for balance of the game, whatever that may be. In Standard, should they rotate to BREAKthrough-On, it leaves cards like Greninja BREAK, Garbodor, Xerneas (and dual types), Volcanion-EX, Max Elixir and some other cards. These cards would be too dangerous to the design of Sun and Moon, which is slower and more "balance". It also removes a lot of unintended card interactions. Don't know if you play Hearthstone or not (I don't) but a developer said they have to remove or even change a lot of cards because it prevented them from making other cards they wanted that just didn't break power creep. I feel the same thing is happening here. We aren't getting new interesting cards because of what exist now or if they make them, they tend to be "broken" because they are trying to beat what has been stopping it in the first place. We also just got news on our draw seven card in the form of a shuffle-draw card, assuming you use your GX attack and since Professor Sycamore's latest print was in Steam Siege, I can see it going. It is also one of the reasons I believe the format will be Evolutions-On, if they just don't ban the card in Standard altogether. They are banning cards now so maybe this will happen instead of a deep rotation.

Just to put this into prespective, Alolan Muk was designed to be in Expanded, not Standard but doesn't break Expanded. Just think about how powerful, Greninja BREAK, Volcanion-EX and Xerneas (with the rotation of Lysandre) would be in a Sun and Moon game? My Decidueye-GX deck was able to completely suppress a deck that uses evolution since I was able to kill those 60 HP basics. Imagine what Greninja BREAK can do in a slower format? You'll never be able to drop a Pokemon. Imagine Xerneas (Rainbow Force) in a slower format. It will use every dual type and hit for at least 280 should they want to commit while still having access to things like DCE and Max Elixir, the same being true for Volcanion-EX, which can drop huge numbers on the first turn. Yes we lose things like Shaymin-EX, Hoopa-EX and Trainers' Mail, but in a slower format, these decks can still be very powerful since they have more turn to do what they want.

I challenge anyone to actually find a card in Evolutions that is actually broken or in anyway will hurt the design Sun and Moon is going for. Evolutions removes the powerful basics, the Mega forms aren't that overwhelming and the breaks are balanced. The draw seven ends your turn and a lot of the cards fall into utility while still keeping some staples around, which also serve as a way to bring people back to the game while showing off gen one Pokemon, which is what Sun and Moon does anyway, bias aside.

I understand people want to keep these cards around but they are preventing the designers from making the cards they want. If they have to run more Expanded tournaments then so be it but Standard needs to change.

As for Expanded, it should go right to XY on or at least to what the format is now. Decidueye-GX should not have interaction with FoGP, which is the exact reason it should rotate. I don't mind Expanded keeping around more sets but Expanded shouldn't be Unlimited 2.0, which is what it is and part of the reason I don't like it. More cards doesn't make anyone a better player, all it does it allow for ways to break the game, which is why people favor lock deck and that's because the card pool is so big. Whatever they choose to do with the game, I just hope they make the right call and put money aside for the health of the game.

 

[Otaku]

I think a potential "answer" to those who would get squirrely if they only recently bought into the BW-era cards, and perhaps a model for how to handle things in the future is to adopt the Legacy Format of the PTCGO. For those unfamiliar with it, the Legacy Format uses the current rules but with a card pool consisting of HeartGold & SoulSilver through BW: Legendary Treasures for expansions and HS: Black Star Promos HS01 through BW: Black Star Promos BW101 for promos. What is important to note is that it creates a stable card pool for long term play, something enticing in its own right.

Now, at least for the next TCG generation, this means you could have XY-On for Expanded and HS+BW for Legacy. Whenever we hit sufficient sets for Gen 8, then we add Legacy II, which would be BW+XY.