When Will the EX Pokémon Era End?

[OVERGRO]

I have a lot to say on this topic, but I'll cut out / abridge some stuff.

Pokemon EX are not going anywhere any time soon. The reason is that they are currently inextricably tied to mega evolution.

I think people underestimate the huge impact on the entire series of Pokemon that the introduction of Mega Evolution was; perhaps moreso due to this being a heavily-TCG website. It's not just a mechanic that will be here for Gen 6 and then magically go away without explanation. It's not just a generational gimmick. Mega Evolution is now just as tightly incorporated into the very DNA of the nature of Pokemon as regular evolution, or triple battles. If suddenly people "have not discovered M-E" or something in the next generation I will be very surprised.

Perhaps fortunately, the TCG is releasing Megas faster than Pokemon is creating them. There are 46 species currently capable of M-E; only ~15 still don't have Mega cards (some have regular cards but no M-EX; like Camerupt and Sharpedo). Eventually they will run out. Only then will the flow EXes have a chance at diminishing. As long as we have Megas, though, I have a feeling EX is here to stay. With every set they are becoming more and more solidified as a permanent addition to the TCG, I think. And they are toning down the power creep a little. PCL could pull the plug any time they wanted to, but for countless reasons I don't have time to go into (some of which are above anyways) I really don't think they'll be axed any time soon.

 

[Clear]

There is a reason why they brought back Exs, and that is because it works as a mechanic.

 

[thegrovylekid]

TCPi Needs to go one of two routes:

- Axe EXes completely and continue with Breaks/Make BREAKs mega evolutions
- Severely boost the power of Stage 2s and what they evolve from [See: Gabite DRX]

 

[HA559]

TCPi Needs to go one of two routes:

- Axe EXes completely and continue with Breaks/Make BREAKs mega evolutions
- Severely boost the power of Stage 2s and what they evolve from [See: Gabite DRX]

I don't think a normal pokemon should have more HP or power than than it's EX version. EX is like a level 100 pokemon. Rather they should tone down on EX pokemons power a little bit, or atleast make the attack costs a bit more for some of them, so they require 3 turns in order to do their most powerful moves.

They should change the rules so that a basic pokemon can evolve to stage 1 on the turn they were played without any additional supporter/trainer. Ofcourse this is as long as you have the evolved card in your hand during that turn. But evolve only once per turn.

Once all the megas are printed that will be it I think. We now have Break that is alongside EX and Mega. Ancient trait cards finished inside a year, I think Break will finish before EX does.

 

[Otaku]

TCPi Needs to go one of two routes:

- Axe EXes completely and continue with Breaks/Make BREAKs mega evolutions
- Severely boost the power of Stage 2s and what they evolve from [See: Gabite DRX]

I agree with 25% of that: boost the usefulness of what Stage 2 Pokémon Evolve from so that the burden of "being worth it" isn't entirely on the final form.

Otherwise it is a matter of pacing not power and it applies across the board. Well, probably a few cards that are overpowered but the big issue is that if you have a Basic meant to be a main attacker right now, it can be an opening main attacker or closing main attacker or mid-game main attacker and can set-up ASAP (usually one turn with a good enough hand).

Imagine if some basics were good openers but not the ones meant to be serious attackers. Imagine if all the Pokémon being made from now until whenever had absolutely no damaging attacks available on a player's first turn. Now imagine that the current card pool rotated out so we could get first turn attacks back. Imagine big Basic decks not saving space because their main attacker was good for opening, closing and everything in between and also could power-up in one turn, but instead needed to run another Basic who was there to handle setup for at least a player's first turn if not first two turns. Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon with Abilities that put them on par with the Trainer that the mono-Basic deck would often run in their stead.

Now if you agree that sounds good... try not to get depressed since there is no indication that is the way the game is heading. >.>

 

[Lorde]

I may have some bias because I really want my Pidgeot EX and m Pidgeot EX I've been wanting for the last 15 years or so, so I want the mechanic to stick around till then. From a balance standpoint, I still want them to stay around. What makes games fun are the many mechanics of the game. In fighting games we have fast characters who dont do much damage but attack fast, characters that are slow but do big damage and the characters between both considered to be balanced.

With the TCG, we can see a lot of this. If something 'took' (yes, took) more resources it was powerful because you had to spend more to get it in play. They either had really good abilities, attacks or both! Basic Pokemon took less resources but required more to get going and weren't as powerful. The problem then was any stage could be an EX and evolution cards had stupid support. The Rayquaza, Blaziken, Pidgeot, Some other attacker deck was stupid. May evolution decks were just overpowered.

Nowadays, Basic Pokemon rule the format and its about time IMO. Ideally it would be nice to see all Pokemon have a basic card form so people can play with favorites but Pokemon now that are stage 1 or 2 are only made to support big EX Pokemon. Take a look at Houndoom EX and m Houndoom EX. Its a card made to mill the opponent. The problem, they'll just make a card that deals 200 damage and make Houndoom EX useless.

The problem isn't that basic Pokemon EX are too good, the problem is the damage output these Pokemon are capable of doing. I'm including Night March and Flareon/bees here too. Damage output is too high and needs to be scaled back. Like Otaku said, this isn't the first time we've seen this and damage was just as high in the past, just now Pokemon have more HP. They need to find a balance between basic, everything in between and Pokemon EX. Don't make EX Pokemon weaker - I say leave things the way they are but offer more cards to support all of these and generally make evolving basics and evolving stage 1 Pokemon better. Pidgey should have an ability to get more pidgey's. ( its a bird so maybe some kind of flying mechanic, like MtG) and Pidgeotto should have a way to get Pidgeot into play faster or at least get other Pidgeotto down. We should be able to get stage 2 Pokemon in play within 2 turns without other card support. Look at how well the Garchomp line did due to the ability to support itself.

I think these Generations packs are your best chance. We both are waiting for something. You with the Pidgeot- EX and me with Glaceon-EX. If we're lucky then maybe get full arts.
Yes! The damage these Pokemon deal is immense. It needs to be a little lower. The regular cards like basics and stage 1's need to be better equipped to take these things in that could kill them in 1 or 2 hits! Also I like your example of the Pidgey line and yes the far home did it why can't other Pokemon?

 

[auro454]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here:

EXs basically print money for the Pokemon company.

I come from a background in Yu-Gi-Oh, and the main reason I switched is cost to play competitively. Konami ( the terrible company that it is ) would exploit their rarities and force the prices in the secondary market through the roof.

I know that the Pokemon company is better at this than konami, but on a strictly business standpoint, EXs sell packs. As long as a formula works why would they abandon it? My stance on the EXs: I say keep them, but don't always make them the best cards in a set. At the very least they aren't exploiting the meta or players seeing as decks like nightmarch can still at least compete in the meta.

 

[Otaku]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned here:

EXs basically print money for the Pokemon company.

I come from a background in Yu-Gi-Oh, and the main reason I switched is cost to play competitively. Konami ( the terrible company that it is ) would exploit their rarities and force the prices in the secondary market through the roof.

I know that the Pokemon company is better at this than konami, but on a strictly business standpoint, EXs sell packs. As long as a formula works why would they abandon it? My stance on the EXs: I say keep them, but don't always make them the best cards in a set. At the very least they aren't exploiting the meta or players seeing as decks like nightmarch can still at least compete in the meta.

I thought we had mentioned this when referring to Pokémon-EX as a gimmick?

Now, do you have any actual data to back up your claim? Pokémon-EX are in every set so I don't get how a set lacking them would sell.

As a reminder, I don't want Pokémon-EX gone, I want the pacing of the game fixed so that being a Basic/having an Evolution cheat/having a stupid level of power isn't required to be at the top. I'm also the guy that has made the claim that sometime on the old WotC PokéGym message board one of the WotC staff (they frequented the board reasonably often to answer questions and such) explained to the more entitled players that the bulk of Pokémon sales are basically to random little kids. Collectors and players both come after this because even though these kids (or by now I'd assume nostalgic adults) are only buying a few packs at most each set, they simply outnumber collectors and players who buy more substantial amounts.

Can't prove it though and even if I could, I'd need to prove it now as well. XD At the very least I can present it as a hypothesis I believe matches what we do indeed see. Anyway, I am uncertain if Pokémon-EX are necessary however Full Arts and any sort of gimmick do indeed help sell boosters to those who neither collect nor play. As these people are going to buy boosters so long as the cards remain Pokémon and aren't horribly bad quality e.g. ink smearing with the touch of your hand, even as the majority they shouldn't dictate the direction of the game. Sounds counter intuitive but as it is so hard to lose these customers, you actually focus on market penetration and thus the smaller groups (collectors and players) to maximize profits.

The damage these Pokemon deal is immense. It needs to be a little lower

Thanks for reminding me: HP scores need to increase. It is made worse by damage output (especially for the effort going into it) often being too high on the competitive cards, but while it would seem a bit clunky at first while everyone got used to it, consider the scale of Pokémon HP in the source material where some have over 700 HP and some have as low as 1. Even ignoring the extremes, there is a massive range. The TCG tries to squish this into a range of 30 through 250 for printed HP scores... but as we only do damage in increments of 10, it is more like 3 to 25!

No, I don't want damage to stop being in increments of 10: anything smaller is indeed too hard to manage. The upper limit for HP score scan rise though. I am not sure to exactly what, but doing this would provide more leeway in game design and of course allow big sounding hits not to be game enders. Resisting inflation after this will be tricky, but so be it. If HP scores were to inflate as of the next not-yet designed set, lowering the damage output on those cards would allow for a kind of intermediary period like we saw with the HS-block between the end of the Platinum era and the BW-era. Newer cards would take more hits but deal less damage, scaling with the older cards when used against each other.

At first I was worried that managing more damage counters would be too difficult, but looking at U.S. coinage, I think it works out okay. Obviously areas with significantly different coins values would need to use card board damage counters or dice, but treating pennies as 10 damage counters, nickels as 50 damage counters and quarters as 250 damage counters, up to 1000 HP wouldn't be too bad, let alone the 750 that would cover the range of HP scores seen in the video games.

 

[bbninjas]

I thought we had mentioned this when referring to Pokémon-EX as a gimmick?

As a reminder, I don't want Pokémon-EX gone[...]

Can't prove it though and even if I could, I'd need to prove it now as well. XD

I don't think auro is talking directly to you, y'know, and instead I think he's sharing his opinion to everyone in the thread... :U

Now, do you have any actual data to back up your claim? Pokémon-EX are in every set so I don't get how a set lacking them would sell.

It's standard business strategy. Pokemon-EX are rarer and many are competitive, which is why they are worth more. If the EX is particularly good, there will be more demand for it, thus more people buying cards from that expansion in hopes to obtain it. Sure, people will probably buy any expansion with a decent amount of powerful cards regardless if they are EX or not, but if said card is rare, people are required to buy more from the expansion than that of a powerful but uncommon card as they are more difficult to obtain.

Also, in regards to your point of HP, I'd like to point out that the main reason that they probably keep HP between these points is for flavour purposes. Canonically, the maximum HP possible at Level 100 is 714. At Level 50, this is 362. In TCG, our max HP w/o outside help is 250. This is comparable canonically and does make sense considering Lv50 is the go-to cap for many tournaments; I feel like going much higher would be a bit over the top.

 

[Otaku]

@bbninjas

I think I have to quote and clarify my own post. Originally I thought it was just one or two bits that were misunderstood but it seems I did a poor job in phrasing.

I thought we had mentioned this when referring to Pokémon-EX as a gimmick?

I thought this fairly straight forward; at least one prior comment referred to Pokémon-EX as a gimmick, which I guess I think of as "sales gimmick". Possibly more than one, but at the time I made that sentence I only checked to make sure at least one comment made such a reference. I thought it implied if it was not outright stated.

Now, do you have any actual data to back up your claim? Pokémon-EX are in every set so I don't get how a set lacking them would sell.

When you present a point, it is good to support it. While Pokémon-EX have indeed sold well, part of that is because they are the Pokémon that may enjoy the Full Art treatment (a separate gimmick) and even though many (most?) aren't dominating the format the ones that do are indeed something people buy booster packs for... however that is true for competitive cards in general. They are their own rarity, but if we replaced them with something else, would it utterly fail because it is specifically Pokémon-EX that are driving sales?

It isn't an unreasonable point, but yes I did want any evidence that might be available.

As a reminder, I don't want Pokémon-EX gone, I want the pacing of the game fixed so that being a Basic/having an Evolution cheat/having a stupid level of power isn't required to be at the top.

Mentioned in case my large posts had obscured the fact, plus a reminder is (I thought ^^') an accepted form of emphasis. My comments read a bit differently if I am a "Ban all Pokémon-EX!" kind of player.

I'm also the guy that has made the claim that sometime on the old WotC PokéGym message board one of the WotC staff (they frequented the board reasonably often to answer questions and such) explained to the more entitled players that the bulk of Pokémon sales are basically to random little kids. Collectors and players both come after this because even though these kids (or by now I'd assume nostalgic adults) are only buying a few packs at most each set, they simply outnumber collectors and players who buy more substantial amounts.

This is to explain why I asked for actual evidence to support the comment about Pokémon-EX driving sales. I cannot prove what I have just said but it does seem quite reasonable; not just during the "fad" phase but as an ongoing thing: there are people who neither play nor collect and yet buy product. To give you an idea, here is an article at least claiming to have the sales figures for the top collectible games. It doesn't just look at overall sales, but breaks it down into "hobby channel" (so specialty stores) and "mass channel" (non-specialized stores). Pokémon manages second place for the hobby channel, and I am guessing that is where most players get their product... but it is the top of he mass channel. Pokémon isn't number one overall, though, so maybe that proves I am mistaken.

If I am not though, then what really drives sales will be what drives sales to people who don't really play or collect. Pokémon-EX might do that! The logic of "Card X is good and thus it is driving sales." isn't as compelling as one might thing because the TCG market includes players, includes collectors and includes a much larger group that doesn't count as either, but instead are getting a booster pack in place of say a small Pokémon toy.

Can't prove it though and even if I could, I'd need to prove it now as well. XD At the very least I can present it as a hypothesis I believe matches what we do indeed see.

This was me reiterating that while it is annoying to prove something that seems so obvious, it is important. I began the sentence with an "Understood I": with that inserted in it read "I can't prove it though and even if I could, I'd need to prove it now as well. XD" since even if my thing about how neither players nor collectors are the main source of sales for the Pokémon TCG was true back when I claim a WotC employee told me on the old, WotC PokéGym boards... I would still need to prove that it was true in the present day, as things may have changed.

Anyway, I am uncertain if Pokémon-EX are necessary however Full Arts and any sort of gimmick do indeed help sell boosters to those who neither collect nor play. As these people are going to buy boosters so long as the cards remain Pokémon and aren't horribly bad quality e.g. ink smearing with the touch of your hand, even as the majority they shouldn't dictate the direction of the game. Sounds counter intuitive but as it is so hard to lose these customers, you actually focus on market penetration and thus the smaller groups (collectors and players) to maximize profits.

This was me finishing off my point: the-powers-that-be don't have to worry too much about getting the "booster pack as toy/nostalgia bomb/etc." crowd. Don't make product that is physically inferior, make sure it remains "Pokémon" and most of those sales will carry through. While Pokémon-EX have been a longstanding selling point, they were preceded by different gimmicks and could be replaced by other gimmicks to meet the same purpose... and even without a gimmick I don't know if sales would see a major decline.

 

[MegaAbsol359]

Somewhere between never, and when Pokemon come to life...

 

[festizzio]

I've played in a few different formats, the earliest being DP-on (for several years I might add), and I have to say this is my favorite. When EXs were first released, I quit shortly after because it looked like nothing else had the real potential to take them down. Heck, if you compare Masters 2014 World's decklists to 2015, you can see this trend with newcomers like Night March and Donphan in the top 8 in 2015, whereas 2014 top was all EX. Now, EXs are more of a liability in a lot of cases and they really have to actively account for the prize trade.

I played through a format with Claydol GE AND Uxie LA, and SPs on top of that. This format is much nicer to a variety of decks. Hex Maniac's printing changed that a little, but the fact that it's a supporter and not a trainer like Power Spray, or an ability/power like Mesprit LA balances it significantly. I don't see them stopping EXs any time soon, as they are actually healthy for the format, unlike Lv. X's or ex's before them. I will admit that seeing 170+ HP on a basic is daunting, but now there are so many non-EX Pokemon that can hit that number that it's almost a nonissue.

Anyway that's just my opinion based on my experience of the game. I do like the fact that they are printing cards like Frogadier in the new set, and Forest of Giant Plants, and I hope the trend continues to help evolutions get back on their feet.

 

[Electricbluewolf]

There's been a steady power creep for years now. I looked back at the Shining cards the other day and was surprised to see that Shining Mewtwo had 70HP. For a Basic "legendary" Pokemon, especially one that had odd Energy requirements, I did think that was so low, but considering it's second attack:

"[P][P][FR] Psyburst (40+) Discard a FR Energy card attached to this Pokemon in order to use this attack. This attack does 10 more damage for each Energy attached to the Defending Pokemon"

Would take out a considerable amount of Pokemon at the time, certainly if you set it up fast.
I mean originally Base Set Electabuzz was a killer, potentially 40 damage for 2 [L][C] Energy was the thing to do!

I'm more used to EX as started to probably play around the end of HGSS, I don't mind them but I do wish there were more playable Stage 2/3 Pokemon that could deal sufficient damage, as to tech a no-EX deck I find is very enjoyable.

 

[Deeznuts]

I don't think that it will happen soon due to the popularity of them and just the fact that everybody uses them

 

[Green778]

Well... Not that anybody is interested in hearing my opinion but anyway...

I would say... That EX Sell, and they sell "badly." Why give up on sth that is so popular and pricey? If one follows the money, he sees it clearly.

Personally, the best format for me would be: Have 10 equally strong decks, that can compete against each other. Not 2-3 overpowered decks and that's it. This hurts the meta. So, when did we had sth like that? Well, never, but after exploring formats the one with the most diversity I found out it was the DP Format. And in fact it was really good. I'm a super fan of LV.X Pokemon, because they're balanced. (SP wasn't, but LV.X was for sure). SO if EXs weren't basic I wouldn't mind. It's just not that fun, to be honest to "not-evolve." Plasma decks are a good example of that.

 

[Otaku]

There's been a steady power creep for years now. I looked back at the Shining cards the other day and was surprised to see that Shining Mewtwo had 70HP. For a Basic "legendary" Pokemon, especially one that had odd Energy requirements, I did think that was so low, but considering it's second attack:

"[P][P][FR] Psyburst (40+) Discard a FR Energy card attached to this Pokemon in order to use this attack. This attack does 10 more damage for each Energy attached to the Defending Pokemon"

Would take out a considerable amount of Pokemon at the time, certainly if you set it up fast.
I mean originally Base Set Electabuzz was a killer, potentially 40 damage for 2 [L][C] Energy was the thing to do!

From someone who was either there (albeit at the local League and online level) or went back to research it when it was only a few months old instead of over 15 years old, I thought I'd clear up some stuff.

1) Base Set Electabuzz and Hitmonchan were the original powerhouses of the Haymaker deck however the deck's biggest strength was that by focusing on these two and especially their low Energy attacks (as opposed to the big attacks), you could combine Type matching and ripping through the deck for multiple copies of PlusPower for a donk (FTKO of an opponent's only Pokémon). When you whiffed on the donk, you then took advantage of Gust of Wind, Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal to keep your opponent sitting there largely doing nothing while you could keep up a steady stream of weaker attacks, until you could Type match again or build for bigger attacks. A bit more to it, but just to expand upon what you do know.

2) The original Shining Pokémon were pretty bad. Shining Mewtwo was I think one of the better ones, but this was released (at least outside of Japan) in the era where WotC was trying to dial back the power on Basics. The HP was "okay" at the time, but if a Stage 2 or Stage 1 deck got going, it was likely to score a OHKO. The popular decks of the time had things like Feraligatr (Neo Genesis 5/111) with its 120 HP or Magcargo (Neo Revelation 33/64), fueled by Entei (Neo Revelation 6/64), or Baby Pokémon that requires a successful flip to actually attack.

 

[Electricbluewolf]

From someone who was either there (albeit at the local League and online level) or went back to research it when it was only a few months old instead of over 15 years old, I thought I'd clear up some stuff.

1) Base Set Electabuzz and Hitmonchan were the original powerhouses of the Haymaker deck however the deck's biggest strength was that by focusing on these two and especially their low Energy attacks (as opposed to the big attacks), you could combine Type matching and ripping through the deck for multiple copies of PlusPower for a donk (FTKO of an opponent's only Pokémon). When you whiffed on the donk, you then took advantage of Gust of Wind, Energy Removal and Super Energy Removal to keep your opponent sitting there largely doing nothing while you could keep up a steady stream of weaker attacks, until you could Type match again or build for bigger attacks. A bit more to it, but just to expand upon what you do know.

2) The original Shining Pokémon were pretty bad. Shining Mewtwo was I think one of the better ones, but this was released (at least outside of Japan) in the era where WotC was trying to dial back the power on Basics. The HP was "okay" at the time, but if a Stage 2 or Stage 1 deck got going, it was likely to score a OHKO. The popular decks of the time had things like Feraligatr (Neo Genesis 5/111) with its 120 HP or Magcargo (Neo Revelation 33/64), fueled by Entei (Neo Revelation 6/64), or Baby Pokémon that requires a successful flip to actually attack.

Thank for the information, it's really interesting as even then when Pokemon TCG was still fairly fresh people had great tech ideas-and the fact can you imagine if some of those cards were released today with no coin flips or an disadvantages? They'd break the whole thing!

Shining Celebi looks awful, some Basic non-legendary have more HP now than it did back in the day. It'd be great to play those cards again, as I find it more satisfying evolving and then beating someone rather than laying down a Basic/EX.

But thank you again for the info, really interesting read

 

[sagen888]

I may have some bias because I really want my Pidgeot EX and m Pidgeot EX I've been wanting for the last 15 years or so, so I want the mechanic to stick around till then. From a balance standpoint, I still want them to stay around. What makes games fun are the many mechanics of the game. In fighting games we have fast characters who dont do much damage but attack fast, characters that are slow but do big damage and the characters between both considered to be balanced.

With the TCG, we can see a lot of this. If something 'took' (yes, took) more resources it was powerful because you had to spend more to get it in play. They either had really good abilities, attacks or both! Basic Pokemon took less resources but required more to get going and weren't as powerful. The problem then was any stage could be an EX and evolution cards had stupid support. The Rayquaza, Blaziken, Pidgeot, Some other attacker deck was stupid. May evolution decks were just overpowered.

Nowadays, Basic Pokemon rule the format and its about time IMO. Ideally it would be nice to see all Pokemon have a basic card form so people can play with favorites but Pokemon now that are stage 1 or 2 are only made to support big EX Pokemon. Take a look at Houndoom EX and m Houndoom EX. Its a card made to mill the opponent. The problem, they'll just make a card that deals 200 damage and make Houndoom EX useless.

The problem isn't that basic Pokemon EX are too good, the problem is the damage output these Pokemon are capable of doing. I'm including Night March and Flareon/bees here too. Damage output is too high and needs to be scaled back. Like Otaku said, this isn't the first time we've seen this and damage was just as high in the past, just now Pokemon have more HP. They need to find a balance between basic, everything in between and Pokemon EX. Don't make EX Pokemon weaker - I say leave things the way they are but offer more cards to support all of these and generally make evolving basics and evolving stage 1 Pokemon better. Pidgey should have an ability to get more pidgey's. ( its a bird so maybe some kind of flying mechanic, like MtG) and Pidgeotto should have a way to get Pidgeot into play faster or at least get other Pidgeotto down. We should be able to get stage 2 Pokemon in play within 2 turns without other card support. Look at how well the Garchomp line did due to the ability to support itself.

I do believe you'll get your Pidgeot EX and m Pidgeot EX , it's just a matter of if they''ll be in a main set with full art variants or as promos (japanese or english) without FA's.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I do believe you'll get your Pidgeot EX and m Pidgeot EX , it's just a matter of if they''ll be in a main set with full art variants or as promos (japanese or english) without FA's.

I hope they are in a main set so I can get full arts.

 

[Numelz Numelz]

Le sit in the corner laughing at all the players reactions to ex ban while I feed my Vespiquen and Crobat...

Lol this is what I dream every night