Help What Will Replace N

Otaku said:
While I agree that what @Pikachu6319 describes sounds unusual, be careful not to overstate your own case. The World Championships may be the highlight of the competitive season, but it is one tournament out of an entire year; the metagame fluctuates throughout. There was even a period when N wasn't Standard legal but was Expanded legal! As we can look up the most recent results easily and the results of the four highlight "Commemorative" World Championship decks fairly easily, let's look at those:
  • In the Masters Age Bracket of the 2017 World Championships, seven out of the eight decks ran 3 N: no more, no less. 8th place ran four.
  • Looking at the four decks selected for the "Commemorative" 2016 World Championship Decks, three out of four run only two N, with one running four.
  • Looking at the four decks selected for the "Commemorative" 2015 World Championship Decks, one ran one, two ran two, and one ran four N.
  • Looking at the four decks selected for the "Commemorative" 2014 World Championship Decks, all ran four copies of N.
  • Looking at the four decks selected for the "Commemorative" 2013 World Championship Decks, all but one ran four copies of N, with the final running three copies.
  • Looking at the four decks selected for the "Commemorative" 2012 World Championship Decks, each deck ran a different amount: 1, 2, 3, or 4 copies of N.
The first release of N came after the 2011 World Championship but N doesn't exactly have a new effect; Rocket's Admin released back in 2004 (after the 2004 World Championships), and its effect only differs in that a player could draw up to the number of his or her Prize cards. For our purposes, this isn't too relevant as it only matters for those few times when a player would not want to draw as many as possible off of this effect. So looking at the relevant World Championship decks again:
  • Looking at the four decks selected for the "Commemorative" 2006 World Championship Decks, one ran two, one ran three, and two ran four.
  • Looking at the four decks selected for the "Commemorative" 2005 World Championship Decks, one ran one, two ran two, and one ran three.
So what does this tell us?

What it does not tell us is, again, how things changed throughout the entire year. It does suggest that competitive decks are likely to run high counts of N but sometimes only a single copy will suffice, and there are formats where two copies were adequate for most decks. There are almost certainly several factors to consider, like the presence of VS Seeker, non-Supporter draw, etc.
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I appreciate you taking the time to compile all that info. I understand that it doesn't necessarily tell us how things changed throughout the entire season. However, N is considered a "staple" Supporter, alongside Professor Sycamore and Lysandre (now Guzma). Regardless of how the competitive scene changes, we can look at the winning deck lists from regionals throughout the years to get a good idea of how many N each deck used. I'm not telling you to compile all that information, haha, but I think we can safely assume that N was used in 99% of decks, if not all of them.

I still think it's... odd... that supposedly almost every deck in Pikachu6319's area barely uses N. I could understand if he alone doesn't want to use it, but an entire area? Then again, we don't know how many people he's actually talking about. It could be 5 players for all we know. He could also be overstating things himself.
 
HouchinsDJ said:
I still think it's... odd... that supposedly almost every deck in Pikachu6319's area barely uses N. I could understand if he alone doesn't want to use it, but an entire area? Then again, we don't know how many people he's actually talking about. It could be 5 players for all we know. He could also be overstating things himself.
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It seems odd, but that doesn't mean it isn't plausible. I wish I could recall (or easily look up XP) the details, but there have been times when players just ran a single N. Which could easily be overstated as people running hardly any N. The most obvious candidates are aggressive decks that max out on four Professor Sycamore and basically include N as an emergency measure or first turn usage.

I'll let @Pikachu6319 explain his local metagame. When the internet infrastructure for the competitive community wasn't so hot, even at the regional level, local metagames could be shockingly different. It wasn't always a case of "The locals are ahead/behind the curve." either; you'll get bizarre chicken-and-the-egg scenarios where no one really bothers with Deck X or almost everyone likes Deck Y, so trying to follow the generic metagame fails miserably. If it seems I'm being a bit too credulous, I've heard similar claims recently, but have been unable to substantiate them.
 
I'll point out because it was mentioned above that the decks that ran 2 or 1 N's was because vs seeker was out as well but moving forward decks are gonna mainly be 4 or 3
 
AuraJackle said:
I'll point out because it was mentioned above that the decks that ran 2 or 1 N's was because vs seeker was out as well but moving forward decks are gonna mainly be 4 or 3
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Also Battle Compressor and Bicycle were legal, meaning that N was incredibly easy to get, or wasn't needed in that situation.

Speaking from experience, N IS one of the most powerful supporters in the game, as it CAN turn games around, and in a lot of cases, be a cause of someone losing a game. As much as I like a good rant, this isn't the discussion to do it in. I suggest we just open one, and let people discuss it there.
 
Nothing we have now will replace N. It has such a unique effect that interacts with the Prize card Mechanic. A close second to it is Judge, which is a disruptive card or the new Marshadow. Wicke, which people say will replace it doesn't do anything like N but is just a hand refreshment so if any opponent uses Big Wheel GX, they will still have a ten card hand.
 
For those of you who think Ilima will replace N, you're barking mad. Here's why.

Ilima is literally a gamble. Just like Birch's Observations, except worse. For example, recently on TCGO my opponent played Ilima, he flipped tails, I flipped heads, and I got everything I needed to set up and win the game. He conceded. There's too much risk in competetive play by using Ilima. I personally think Wicke will replace N. Obviously Wicke won't be able to disrupt like N does, but its instantly better because it doesnt involve chance. For those of who who think Ilima will replace N, I'd like to know why.
 
sylvarina said:
For those of you who think Ilima will replace N, you're barking mad. Here's why.

Ilima is literally a gamble. Just like Birch's Observations, except worse. For example, recently on TCGO my opponent played Ilima, he flipped tails, I flipped heads, and I got everything I needed to set up and win the game. He conceded. There's too much risk in competetive play by using Ilima. I personally think Wicke will replace N. Obviously Wicke won't be able to disrupt like N does, but its instantly better because it doesnt involve chance. For those of who who think Ilima will replace N, I'd like to know why.
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I do not think Ilima is a worthwhile replacement for N, however, I'll play devil's advocate, in part because I'd probably use it over Wicke and because I think you're misunderstanding how much luck is actually involved with N.

N is a card that provides draw power and hand disruption all in one. It is predictable in that there are only so many combinations of Prize cards players can have; without getting into effects that add extra Prizes, there are 36 possible draw combinations during a game. Within these boundaries, you can't predict these results too far ahead of time; you'll know exactly how many cards you'll draw before you use it, but sometimes even during your own turn, that amount will change.

With Ilima, there are four possible outcomes: both players draw three, both players draw six, Player 1 draws three while Player 2 draws six, and Player 1 draws six while Player 2 draws three. These are always possible, but you won't know which one you'll get until you flip. With both of these cards, how much you help/hurt yourself or help/hurt your opponent depends on luck of the draw. I've had opponent's win because early or late game, I've drawn six dead cards. Not "bad" cards, but cards that weren't currently useful.

Wicke also provides draw and disruption all at once but it is a guaranteed "-1" for the player using it. Normally, we don't sweat that in Pokémon but we also normally use our Supporter for major draw power. Cards like Cheren, Tierno, and Hau aren't worth using even though you're drawing three cards; most decks need a large influx of cards when you play your draw supporter.

If we don't get a more appropriate substitute, a few decks might use these, but I expect we'll just get used to having no shuffle-and-draw card that doubles as disruption.
 
Otaku said:
If we don't get a more appropriate substitute, a few decks might use these, but I expect we'll just get used to having no shuffle-and-draw card that doubles as disruption.
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And at least in my opinion that's they way it should be. You should either get to help yourself or hurt your opponent not both. I know not everyone will agree with that but that is my opinion.

Then again we might get another substitute or even reprint of some sort for N or at least his effect. Only time will tell there.
 
I don't think we will get a replacement for in that will be good. Wicke serves as hand disruption, which buff draw and search GX attacks since the hand sizes will remain the same and while Ilima isn't the most ideal replace me, it is the closes at disruption in SM on, and I think this is okay. There was a time where players used Judge for draw and disruption. I honestly don't want to see a replacement to N. Just like the new cards we have now, I'd like to see a spin on it, and that is where Wicke and Ilima come in so we have two replacements to N. These cards are fine without crippling the opponent.
 
N may replace N? As I don't play the game I don't know, but what I do know is... There will be a full art N, alternate promo card (105a/124) released in November.
 
Pikachu6319 said:
Have to agree to disagree. In all of my games I have never seen it do that. Different areas have different styles, and the few times I've seen it, it hasn't turned the game around.
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N is a 3 or 4 of in every single competitive deck. It's an excellent card which you should really try out, its much better than similar things like Illima and Wicke.
 
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