Hi, I recently came into the pokemon tcg coming from yugioh and cardfight vanguard. I talked to a friend today who also wants to play PTCG, but was struggling with a question of skill. His argument was how does this game require any skill at all, everything searches and draws. Every game has there inherent flaws an exploits so I am not trying to poke (no pun intended) at this game in particular, but what makes a skilled player in the Pokemon game? Is it management of resources or is it something else I am missing? Thank you and just to be clear I am loving this game so far, it is just a question from someone looking at the competitive scene from the outside.
What is 'Skill' in PTCG?
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I'm super new too and kind of have the same question as you do - it seems more of a match-up winner rather than fully skilled based
This game is built on money, skill and dumb luck. If you don't have one of them, it's very hard to win a game. It starts with money, if you can't by that Shaymin, Octillery, M Mewtwo, Jolteon, or whatever staple cards needed to build a certain deck, it's hard to make a good one. However, certain budget decks can win, even without the cards everyone uses. So now this is where luck and skill come in. Anyone can win with luck, and I mean anyone. The problem with it, however, is that luck doesn't just come to you, at least not always. To get luck, you need skill. Now I'll admit, that in the last format, skill was determined on how fast you set up NM or Trev and then who won the coinflip. This time, it's different. There's so many more decks that are being played and winning and the majority of them have a strategy that requires skill. Something you'll find as you play more is that in every game, you'll have to make decisions. Whether you should discard your hand of VS Seekers with Sycamore to stay in a game or keep them and risk losing, if you should run through your entire deck just to find that DCE to win or deck out, or whether to play defensive and give your opponent a chance to setup. These decisions you make are what I call skill. You need the proper cards, to be able to play those cards, and then be able to play them well enough for luck to come closer to you.
tl;dr Skill is being able to play the cards you have properly, make desicions and to be able to make yourself lucky.
tl;dr Skill is being able to play the cards you have properly, make desicions and to be able to make yourself lucky.
IMO, to simply respond to the main question presented, I would define "skill" as playing a well-built, effective and efficient deck as best as possible, each turn, against any deck one might encounter. Although one builds a deck based upon a strategy, being able to effectively play that deck against the many different decks one may encounter (e.g., at a tournament) does require experience (i.e., previous card and deck study and analysis, knowledge of the general build of top decks and using probability, play-testing, etc.) and skill.
Lastly, let's not forget that practically EVERY game, except the very few like chess and GO, has some "luck" element. Fortunately, Pokémon TCG has a greater skill-based component versus luck, IMO.
Lastly, let's not forget that practically EVERY game, except the very few like chess and GO, has some "luck" element. Fortunately, Pokémon TCG has a greater skill-based component versus luck, IMO.
In-game skill is something I am always trying to develop. This is a player's ability to respond to different in-game situations with actions that give them the highest chance of winning.
It's the little, seemingly insignificant, things that put the best players above the good players - everything from checking your opponent's discard pile for the number of VS Seeker they've played, to remembering to use Ultra Ball to discard irrelevant cards before you use N. The latter example feeds into what @double o squirtle has said about "making yourself lucky". If you play cards in the correct sequence and give yourself the highest chance of drawing what you need to win then, in essence, you are making your own luck.
It's the little, seemingly insignificant, things that put the best players above the good players - everything from checking your opponent's discard pile for the number of VS Seeker they've played, to remembering to use Ultra Ball to discard irrelevant cards before you use N. The latter example feeds into what @double o squirtle has said about "making yourself lucky". If you play cards in the correct sequence and give yourself the highest chance of drawing what you need to win then, in essence, you are making your own luck.
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maybe look at it from a tournament perspective also.
there might be dozens of players playing a certain deck.
but there's a reason why experienced and high ranked players (more often than not) can play their way into the top cut.
its skill.
especially in a best 2 out of 3 format. luck can only get you so far.
consistency. knowing how to adjust your in game strategy based on the play of your opponent and his deck.
if it was "only" due to luck, then their should be much more variety in the number of players to championship points.
I'll grant you that certain matchup may be inherently skewed to one player.
but in general, a good deck build and skill can help overcome this disadvantage. especially against a less skilled player.
there might be dozens of players playing a certain deck.
but there's a reason why experienced and high ranked players (more often than not) can play their way into the top cut.
its skill.
especially in a best 2 out of 3 format. luck can only get you so far.
consistency. knowing how to adjust your in game strategy based on the play of your opponent and his deck.
if it was "only" due to luck, then their should be much more variety in the number of players to championship points.
I'll grant you that certain matchup may be inherently skewed to one player.
but in general, a good deck build and skill can help overcome this disadvantage. especially against a less skilled player.
The current state of Yu-Gi-Oh has less skill, it's as you said, searches and draws, but at least there's more ways to use the cards you searched and drew in Pokemon.
It takes some skill to decide whether to attack or retreat, do you go for your status move or your high damage move, which tool or energy to equip and which pokemon to equip it to.
Archetypes like Yu-Gi-Oh has become rampant in hardly exist in Pokemon so your cards have a lot more ways to use them and because you need to power up your pokemon there's more forward planning involved.
It takes some skill to decide whether to attack or retreat, do you go for your status move or your high damage move, which tool or energy to equip and which pokemon to equip it to.
Archetypes like Yu-Gi-Oh has become rampant in hardly exist in Pokemon so your cards have a lot more ways to use them and because you need to power up your pokemon there's more forward planning involved.
Ignoring that "everything" does not actually search or draw, why would that promote more luck? Would it not diminish luck? We are discussing TCGs, which of course means we must consider "luck of the draw". Your friend seems to be processing this backwards. I suspect he is starting with the premise that insanely powerful cards are okay so long as they are Limited or Semi-Limited, lack tutors, and aren't part of a deck theme with much draw power. This reasoning is faulty. The risk that you may not draw a restricted card at the correct time may make things "fair", but it is still a matter of luck.
Pokémon has issues with pacing and game balance, but as someone who played Yu-Gi-Oh! until about 2009, and has twice since tested the waters of returning to it, Pokémon is the better game and requires, if not more skill, more of the skills I find desirable in the game. Yu-Gi-Oh! players obsess over skill, I think, worse than others because most of the skill they fancy is an illusion. I had players telling me how Raigeki wasn't overpowered but was a skill card because you could only run one (it was Limited at the time) and if you used it poorly, it was just a one-for-one instead of being at least a two-for-one. While there is an element of skill to using Raigeki well, it paled in comparison to the kind of skill that would have been required sans Raigeki.
One last important difference to understand is that Pokémon has a resource system with a significantly different structure than Yu-Gi-Oh!. Most or at least much of the time in Pokémon your may only use a single Supporter during your turn, you may only have a single Pokémon Tool attached to a Pokémon, a Pokémon cannot Evolve more than once per turn, a Pokémon cannot Evolve the turn it was put into play, you get a single Energy attachment from hand on your turn, and you only get to attack once, and on your turn. Consider how that changes the dynamic seen in Yu-Gi-Oh!. Sure in that game you only get a single Normal Summon per turn, but everything you have in play is able to attack (unless otherwise specified), if your opponent wants to attack something on his or her own turn, your monsters still inflict battle damage, almost any creature can try to function as a blocker, etc. Oh, and Side Boards; Pokémon doesn't have them while Yu-Gi-Oh! does. So even with all this draw/search, if you want to include a single card counter to a key match up or situation, you have to TecH it into your main deck.
In pokemon TCG pretty much everything has a weakness, this avoids the 'one deck to rule them all' problem that sometimes occurs in other TCGs. Sure $£ is a factor, again not as bad as some other TCGs (although shaymins should have been in the keldeo/rayquaza box!)
Luck ... you need to make your own luck by deck planning, knowing your deck and game skills.
Luck ... you need to make your own luck by deck planning, knowing your deck and game skills.
I agree with all of the above. To put it simple: It is all in the math, the cards you have, and the concentration of cards in your deck. It also depends on what your opponent is playing with. You have to think one step ahead of your opponent as well as of your own deck.
In estimating skill: I think luck plays a role (moreso in some decks than others), as well as the player's level of knowledge regarding common -- and perhaps gimmicky -- card interactions.
However, I consider the biggest indication of skill to be found in a player's mind-gaming abilities. Often times I find that the more experienced a player is, the harder it is for me to tell what is in their hand or in their plan. Newer to average players are generally easy to read (and you can usually count on them attacking indiscriminately); decks you see often are also generally pretty easy to read as well, yet they tend to do better simply by their nature of using powerful cards. But by contrast, all it takes is an experienced player throwing a few curveballs, and maybe passing a turn with no attack or with a seemingly odd retreat, and you're suddenly scared to make any sudden movements.
The greatest tactic in this game is getting your opponent to think you can't KO their Pokemon; or better, that you can't win at all. Once that happens, they tend to leave themselves open to an upset.
However, I consider the biggest indication of skill to be found in a player's mind-gaming abilities. Often times I find that the more experienced a player is, the harder it is for me to tell what is in their hand or in their plan. Newer to average players are generally easy to read (and you can usually count on them attacking indiscriminately); decks you see often are also generally pretty easy to read as well, yet they tend to do better simply by their nature of using powerful cards. But by contrast, all it takes is an experienced player throwing a few curveballs, and maybe passing a turn with no attack or with a seemingly odd retreat, and you're suddenly scared to make any sudden movements.
The greatest tactic in this game is getting your opponent to think you can't KO their Pokemon; or better, that you can't win at all. Once that happens, they tend to leave themselves open to an upset.