Discussion Viability of Herdier

[jessalakasam]

Scan of the card:

Herdier from Sun & Moon always interested me, it's ability can greatly accelerate decks, for example getting Ultra balls or Vs Seekers or a Puzzle piece that you had to discard early in the game. It can also be reused with cards such as AZ and Scoop up in expanded and Devo Spray in standard, in a future format without Shaymin Herdier can add a lot to certain lists, another use could be recovering the new Aqua Patch, turbos, or Elixirs. What do you guys think? If you think we should run it should we use a 1-1 line or 2-2 line

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

If you have room for Herdier, then you have room for Puzzle of Time.

 

[mordacazir]

Scan of the card:

Herdier from Sun & Moon always interested me, it's ability can greatly accelerate decks, for example getting Ultra balls or Vs Seekers or a Puzzle piece that you had to discard early in the game. It can also be reused with cards such as AZ and Scoop up in expanded and Devo Spray in standard, in a future format without Shaymin Herdier can add a lot to certain lists, another use could be recovering the new Aqua Patch, turbos, or Elixirs. What do you guys think? If you think we should run it should we use a 1-1 line or 2-2 line

It definitly has potential after rotation, except if puzzle of time is reprinted in Best of XY, and if it comes to America.

 

[Otaku]

Herdier from Sun & Moon always interested me, it's ability can greatly accelerate decks, for example getting Ultra balls or Vs Seekers or a Puzzle piece that you had to discard early in the game. It can also be reused with cards such as AZ and Scoop up in expanded and Devo Spray in standard, in a future format without Shaymin Herdier can add a lot to certain lists, another use could be recovering the new Aqua Patch, turbos, or Elixirs. What do you guys think? If you think we should run it should we use a 1-1 line or 2-2 line

AZ is a Supporter, so it cannot be targeted by "Treasure Hunt". Think carefully about using "accelerate" alongside a Stage 1 that you have to wait at least one turn to Evolve. I am not saying it is impossible, but Herdier is a one-and-done trick unless you invest even more resources. I am quite pleased with this card, though; if we had a better Stoutland, this would be quite nice to use with it.

Edit: As was pointed, out, I misread the comment involving AZ. Badly misread it. >_>

 

[jessalakasam]

AZ is a Supporter, so it cannot be targeted by "Treasure Hunt". Think carefully about using "accelerate" alongside a Stage 1 that you have to wait at least one turn to Evolve. I am not saying it is impossible, but Herdier is a one-and-done trick unless you invest even more resources. I am quite pleased with this card, though; if we had a better Stoutland, this would be quite nice to use with it.

I meant you can use Devo Spray, Scoop up and AZ to reuse Treasure Hunt, and in expanded there is a decent Stoutland that Support-locks your opponent

 

[Otaku]

I meant you can use Devo Spray, Scoop up and AZ to reuse Treasure Hunt...

Which should have been so obvious, it should have occurred to me I had to be misreading that sentence. Sorry about that; edited my previous post in a manner so that future readers know I goofed up.

I am still skeptical of making good use of Herdier. It isn't potent enough to justify without the deck already needing a Stoutland. The one Stoutland that looks like it may have some promise is the one from BW: Boundaries Crossed, which you mentioned. It was a failure when it first released, so the only way I can see to make it finally work out is through an elaborate lock deck utilizing Stoutland. In this case, "elaborate" means running multiple Evolution lines. We either need a real good hit-and-run style attacker, a second restrictive Ability so the opponent cannot try to just power through or someway of making the opponent deal with both.

If you want to run with this idea... go ahead. Give us something to further discuss.

 

[AuraJackle]

Honestly unless your running level ball I don't see any reason to play this over Milotic from primal clash which on evolution gets you any item you want from your discard pile.

 

[Leric]

Every comment in here is missing the fact that Herdier is run in just about every type of Bee list being played in Standard at the moment.

It's 100x better for Bees than PoT, especially considering how prolific Vileplume is in Standard. So, very viable, but only in certain archetypes.

Also, 2-2 is the Standard package that is run in most Bee lists.

 

[AuraJackle]

Yea I've seen it in vespiqueen decks and always want to ask those people why they run herdier over Milotic. Mayb they just forgot milotic was a thing

 

[Leric]

Yea I've seen it in vespiqueen decks and always want to ask those people why they run herdier over Milotic. Mayb they just forgot milotic was a thing

I'm one of those people and it's also achieved top cuts at regional events since it's release. First off, when Milotic saw play in Raichu lists around a year/year and a half ago, it was to recover things like VS Seeker and DCEs. Now, we have Special Charge to get those DCEs back in the deck, so the effect of grabbing just a single item is pretty strong, especially with how Bees typically slam through their deck to get their board and enough 'mons in the discard pile. There just isn't enough of a need for the 2x cards anymore. Some lists running Parallel City can also capitalize on the ability, and then use PC to counter an opponents stadium and pitch Lillipup/Herdier for the 20 damage boost.

Most games, Bees can typically grab just 1x of VS Seeker/Revitalizer/Special Charge with Treasure Hunt and it can be game winning. That's just the nature of the deck at the moment. Also, Milotic requires running Feebas, which in and of itself is extremely fragile. Nowadays, Umbreon GX also sees play and can snipe it easily. Feebas is just too much of a liability at the moment.

Finally, as terrible as it is, Herdier can also attack in a Bees list, whereas a Milotic stuck active against something like Vileplume is nothing short of a disaster.

 

[Otaku]

Every comment in here is missing the fact that Herdier is run in just about every type of Bee list being played in Standard at the moment.

"Missing the fact" implies this is an established fact we overlooked... as opposed to it being a fact in dispute or something people are simply unaware of at this time. For the record, that is why I didn't mention it; I was not aware that this being tried, let alone that it had proven successful. This is literally the information I was asking for in my previous post.

It's 100x better for Bees than PoT, especially considering how prolific Vileplume is in Standard. So, very viable, but only in certain archetypes.

Also, 2-2 is the Standard package that is run in most Bee lists.

I can see how Herdier would fit in a Vespiquen deck than Puzzle of Time, but I could use some more information to understand why it is so much better, as you claim. Herdier and Lillipup can feed the damage from "Bee Revenge" while Puzzle of Time cannot. Puzzle of Time is totally dead in hand while "Irritating Pollen" is in effect, but you can hope to discard Lillipup and/or Herdier to at least get the damage boost. You can also play the two Pokémon and try to force your opponent to waste time KOing them as another means of getting them to the discard pile. In both cases, though, they are useless for their intended role; Herdier can still retrieve an Item but Iritating Pollen will prevent you from actually playing said Item.

Conversely, Ability denial does nothing to Puzzle of Time but again leaves Herdier only useful for feeding Bee Revenge. Puzzle of Time can be a pain to pull off at times, but if you dedicate the same four slots to it as you suggest for Herdier, you can reclaim up to four cards from your discard pile instead of just two, and they can be anything and just Items.

I also went to look at the results for the Standard Format Regional Championships that occurred since Sun & Moon were added; so far any Vespiquen list that managed to top cut did not contain Herdier. So that gets back to why some of us are ignorant of its usefulness in the deck, or even still a bit skeptical. Having just been introduced to the idea, I don't know; seems plausible enough, and hopefully I'll get a chance to try it sooner rather than later.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Leric]

"Missing the fact" implies this is an established fact we overlooked... as opposed to it being a fact in dispute or something people are simply unaware of at this time. For the record, that is why I didn't mention it; I was not aware that this being tried, let alone that it had proven successful. This is literally the information I was asking for in my previous post.



I can see how Herdier would fit in a Vespiquen deck than Puzzle of Time, but I could use some more information to understand why it is so much better, as you claim. Herdier and Lillipup can feed the damage from "Bee Revenge" while Puzzle of Time cannot. Puzzle of Time is totally dead in hand while "Irritating Pollen" is in effect, but you can hope to discard Lillipup and/or Herdier to at least get the damage boost. You can also play the two Pokémon and try to force your opponent to waste time KOing them as another means of getting them to the discard pile. In both cases, though, they are useless for their intended role; Herdier can still retrieve an Item but Iritating Pollen will prevent you from actually playing said Item.

Conversely, Ability denial does nothing to Puzzle of Time but again leaves Herdier only useful for feeding Bee Revenge. Puzzle of Time can be a pain to pull off at times, but if you dedicate the same four slots to it as you suggest for Herdier, you can reclaim up to four cards from your discard pile instead of just two, and they can be anything and just Items.

I also went to look at the results for the Standard Format Regional Championships that occurred since Sun & Moon were added; so far any Vespiquen list that managed to top cut did not contain Herdier. So that gets back to why some of us are ignorant of its usefulness in the deck, or even still a bit skeptical. Having just been introduced to the idea, I don't know; seems plausible enough, and hopefully I'll get a chance to try it sooner rather than later.

Thanks for sharing.

I might have mistakenly thought Dylan Bryan ran it in Bees, but that was before S/M released and he played Vespiquen/Zebstrika/Octillery.

However, Daniel Lynch cut Day 2 in Anaheim playing Vespiquen/Zoroark/Herdier. Consequently, going back and looking for this also made me realize that Anaheim is the only regionals that have taken place for Standard since the set released. That info can be found here:

http://thecharizardlounge.com/tournament-results/2016-2017-regional-championship-results/

He missed Day 2 Top 8 and finished 11th overall.

The simple fact of the matter is that (Vileplume aside, it's going to be a thing all season long, and that alone makes PoT an infinitely worse choice) having the option of pitching Lillipup/Herdier for Bee Revenge is always going to win out to running a 4x PoT package. And as I said, the one time you're going to use Treasure Hunt per game (and then consequently pitch the other 1/1 line for damage) will be all you need in 90% of games. This comes from playing the deck extensively. In all honesty, many games will see you ignoring Herdier entirely and it being nothing more than +40 damage for your game plan, which is definitely alright. Vespiquen has always been a deck that looks to play the Bee line and and a back up attacker (Expanded, Flareon and Standard, Zoroark or Zebstrika), so it naturally wants to fit in support Pokemon that bolster it's game plan (first was Unown from AO, then Klefki from Steam Siege, now Herdier is getting play).

Obviously, if your opponent turns over or drops an Oddish on turn 1 of the game, Herdier becomes expendable since as you pointed out, it's more of a liability than anything as the ability will get you an item you can't use more often than not.

 

[jessalakasam]

I wasn't aware of it in bees either do you have any other ideas for decks that should run it?