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Alt. Format Ultra Necrozma GX for Post Rotation (WIP)

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
Maybe drop U Necrozma to 2 and BUS Necrozma to 1, Bring up Ultra Ball and maybe Choice Band.

Have you tried the Hula Oricorio to get necessary Energy?

Also, as much fun as Psychic Baby Lele can be with Necrozma shenanigans. How often did you get it to work? It seems too gimmicky to use.
 
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Sunderaj

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Maybe drop U Necrozma to 2 and BUS Necrozma to 1, Bring up Ultra Ball and maybe Choice Band.

Have you tried the Hula Oricorio to get necessary Energy?

Also, as much fun as Psychic Baby Lele can be with Necrozma shenanigans. How often did you get it to work? It seems too gimmicky to use.


Hay man.

Dropping the Ultra Necrozma is making me seriously consider just trying to make a consistent Necrozma GX deck and try get 1 hand plus 2 malamar energies working consistently rather than adding in all these variables. But will try it out. Maybe its my thinking that has to shift. Maybe I need to see this as Necrozma GX deck first and the ultra as back up...

Hula Oricorio looks great! Can use balls and search for energies! I will definitely try this but I fear bench space may be a problem. It always gets backed up with Tapu Lele's and I never have space but worth a shot.

Baby Lele so far has been useless. Keeping my eyes out for a non ex/gx attacker though.

Oddly enough I wonder if adding +1 ultra ball to the deck as is would tip it back into constancy...mmmm.

Anyone any luck with Oranguru working in this deck?
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
Hay man.

Dropping the Ultra Necrozma is making me seriously consider just trying to make a consistent Necrozma GX deck and try get 1 hand plus 2 malamar energies working consistently rather than adding in all these variables. But will try it out. Maybe its my thinking that has to shift. Maybe I need to see this as Necrozma GX deck first and the ultra as back up...

I would honestly focus on one Necrozma (Ultra or BUS) and run with that. Run 2 of either. But having more than that clumps the deck up.

Hula Oricorio looks great! Can use balls and search for energies! I will definitely try this but I fear bench space may be a problem. It always gets backed up with Tapu Lele's and I never have space but worth a shot.

YEah, I've heard that bench space is an issue. Super Scoop Up, maybe?

Baby Lele so far has been useless. Keeping my eyes out for a non ex/gx attacker though.
You'll have an esier time with 1-prize attackers with a full Psychic BUS Necrozma version. That said, not sure what you could use as Buzzwole will be much less and I'm afraid that a buinch of Zoroark will pop up at the start of the format to directly counter Malamar.

Oddly enough I wonder if adding +1 ultra ball to the deck as is would tip it back into constancy...mmmm.
Absolutely!

Anyone any luck with Oranguru working in this deck?
Malamar decks shouldn't need Oranguru. Control will be non-existent and your focus should be making the deck consistent as possible and not shooting for the long-con. Malamar decks are meant to end games as soon as possible on their terms--as all decks will be at the start of the format.
 

Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
Hula Oricorio is difficult to use in this deck by virtue of this deck having 4 slots as nearly mandatory fills.

2 Malamar - for energy recycling
1 Dawn Wings Necrozma GX - for retreat switching
1 Tapu Lele GX - because you probably didn't get your T1 supporter play of choice.

If you add a Hula Oricorio on top of this, you're looking at potentially taking up 5 slots of your Pokemon space, and that means you won't be able to have a 2nd back up attacker that can start getting charged up for energy with a main attacker in play. It's a Catch 22 scenario where you have the energy, but now you don't have the right Pokemon instead.

All in all Sunderaj, I agree with the qualms you have about the deck except for Lady.

Lady has been an incredibly effective supporter for me. Lady for 1 Steel and 3 Physic and using either Sophocoles (later of course) or Mysterious Treasure to discard Psychics while having energy in hand to attach for two turns has been monumental to making the deck stand a chance. For the matter, I playtest my UNGX/Malamar deck against Gardevoir/Sylveon, and I have won once in a blue moon with UNGX in that match up.

I believe I mentioned it in an older post, but UNGX's problem is that everything that it has needs to be set up, and it has nothing to help it out with the set up. There's no Alolan Vulpix to search Pokemon or Sylveon GX to search anything at all. There's no Energy Evolution Eevee equivalent to immediately evolve Inkays into Malamar straight out of the deck, and even after you set up Malamar, if you have no attackers on bench you can't even use them. The deck just doesn't have any sort of order of events - it just wins or doesn't win.

Sylveon GX to me is one of the strongest Pokemon post rotation thanks to energy evolution searching it straight out of the deck and allowing for T1 going second search 3 cards that can no longer get denied by N, but it also allows you to mold and shape your hand and game state both aggressively and reactively. The only time Gardy/Sylveon loses against UNGX/Malamar is when Sylveon GX doesn't enter the field due to the incredibly low odds of bricking on that set up for 3 turns straight with the decklist that I run.

I'm also going to make a very bold statement right now - I expect a minimum of 2-2 Zoroark GX to be a nearly mandatory inclusion in almost every meta deck post rotation due to the massive reduction of draw power we're experiencing and the huge gap in consistency between decks that do run it and decks that do not. Not only does Zoroark GX give ability draw, but the discard also makes it so that you can filter your hand & deck to make Cynthia hit more accurately the longer a game goes on and the more you intelligently discard (this is also partially why I believe that 4x Cynthia & 4x Sightseer is the right call for this deck, because sightseer filters your hand & deck to make Cynthia more useful on following turns). UNGX has no synergy with Zoroark GX thanks to Mysterious Treasure and the lack of bench space, and that loss of consistency relative to its competition is part of the reason why UNGX can't even hold a candle to things like Alolan Ninetales GX/Zoroark GX (I've playtested it. Beacon & Trade make the deck too consistent for UNGX to set up consistently). Literally 4/3 Sylveon GX with 4/4 Zoroark GX could be one of the strongest decks due to infinite draw and search power that outspeeds anything else.

I will say that I have found the deck running far more consistently after removing ultra ball and increasing Pokemon counts since I'm no longer losing massive hand advantage to see my Pokemon, but it's still not consistent enough. Ultra Ball reduces your hand advantage by far too much when you're already running 4 copies of Mysterious Treasure at the same time. Your hand just doesn't survive playing Ultra Ball and Mysterious Treasure at the same time, and Cynthia re-shuffle doesn't give you enough cards to work with to do that all the time.

I'm starting to believe that this deck NEEDS Pokemon Fan Club, maybe even 2 copies of it, to make sure you can always have 2 Inkay in play at the end of T1. Pokemon Fan Club is no Brigette, but the fact of the matter is that 2 Malamar is all you need to win games, so massively increasing your odds of seeing 2 Inkays on T1 is actually a high value play in my book.

I will continue playtesting this deck to see if I can find solutions.
 

Sunderaj

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I am trying everything here. Played around with Fan Club too. It doesn't really come off that well. The consistency of setting up for a t2 2x Malamar and streaming OHKO's is less than 50%. Even when it does come off, I seem to be one energy short on a pokemon either to switch to the bench or fully power up an attacker. 3 Malamars would do it but it just isn't viable to work for three. I've tried altar and switch to get it to work and still nothing. Next I will try Tate and Lize but I don't like relying on my supporter for the switch, Guzma is enough for that.

A question though. In my testing which is often against constant OHKO's, I struggle to win back momentum when the opponent is streaming attacks first. Moon Eclipse is a potential answer to have them work around Guzma but they inevitably do. I was wondering if their are any non GX basic attackers that could be used in this deck? Maybe something that hits Zoroark GX's weakness. If I had a fighting type pokemon that could take two prizes, be easily powered up by my psychic energies and still force my opponent to play around for the prize trade, I think that could help the deck? Any ideas guys? I'm thinking fighting because as said above, Zoroark's are almost expected to be in most decks.

Maybe sightseer will give the deck the boost that it needs but November is too far away. Cards I am seriously wishing were reprinted are float stone and/or Prof Letter. As for Lady...I hate how useless it is when I have it in my deck...As soon as I test without it, I wish I still had it. So I'm still working through that one.

Any basic non gx attackers anyone can recommend?
 

Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
I personally still can't get this deck to run either. It requires too many pieces and honestly it needs a different way to get going other than Malamar.

This idea might sound disgusting, but I'm starting to think that the New Solgaleo GX is a good partner for UNGX for the energy acceleration.

One Solgaleo GX can accelerate 2 basic energy from the discard, hits for a very solid 2 hit KO damage at the same time, and gives UNGX the same amount of energy in a turn as 2 Malamars. Solgaleo GX also sits at a massive 250 HP and cannot simply be Guzma'd and obliterated from the field to completely ruin your momentum on 90 HP Malamars. Getting the same job done with only 1 Pokemon also means we now have an extra bench space for another Lele, or if we can somehow squeeze Zoroark GX into the list.

The weakness prevention also makes it so that UNGX doesn't just get completely butchered by Fairy decks, and on the contrary, New Solgaleo GX will be OHKOing fairy in response.

UNGX's problem right now is that it has no form of attacking until it can swing for KOs after getting set up. Mysterious Treasures & Nest Balls can search out Cosmogs and then we can Steven's Decision on Turn 1 to find rare candy & Solgaleo GX & energy so that we can attack on turn 2 for immediate pressure and energy acceleration at the same time. This, of course, also assumes that you draw energy on turn 1 and attach to Cosmog so that on turn 2 you can have 2 energy.

UNGX would still be a better attacker than Dusk Mane Necrozma GX since UNGX can be found with Mysterious Treasure while DMNGX can't. We can always roll the regular Necrozma GX in case we run into energy problems, and it's still searchable by Mysterious Treasure and won't have any Psychic weakness due to New Solgaleo GX.

New Solgaleo GX also fixes Dawn Wing's weakness to Zoroark GX so it doesn't become a liability on the bench. I would run the Ultra Road Solgaleo as well since it can immediately search out 5 energy (including beast energy) with the GX attack, but I'm not sure how inconsistent that would get. I do like Ultra Road far more than Dawn Wings' ability though.

I would also be cutting Beast Ring from the deck completely since it just doesn't work at all in my testing. I never have it when I need it, and even if I get it it doesn't save the game for me since I lose momentum immediately after the opposing deck takes another KO.

As far as basic non-GX attackers go...it's hard to find anything that will specifically counter Zoroark and work in a psychic/metal energy deck. The only non-GX "attacker" I would play is probably the Psychic Tapu Lele, especially if I'm playing with Necrozma GX in the deck.

All this being said (sorry I'm kind of just thinking aloud like I usually do in my posts), it's pretty much come to a point where it's no longer even a UNGX deck anymore, and you might as well run something that doesn't need mixed energy to get going.

This deck needs a serious face lift if it wants to survive post rotation.
 

Rusery

Ethical Vegan Pokemaster
Member
Im pretty determined to make this one work. After taking a full year break my eyes are pretty fresh. I agree that the deck takes too much to set up and has too many weaknesses. Forgive me if i've missed something in the above replies, im doing this dirty from the phone.

1)What about Trashalanche Garbo? < great attacker and proven in many decks to save lives.

2)What about Sharing the stage with Nagandel-GX (yes you lose some power with the malamars but provides a different route to dealing damage if something goes wrong)

3) Silvally-GX + memories to fight off weaknesses and provide UNGX and other basics free switching.

4) Acerola to keep our UNGX alive?
 

Sunderaj

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Im pretty determined to make this one work. After taking a full year break my eyes are pretty fresh. I agree that the deck takes too much to set up and has too many weaknesses. Forgive me if i've missed something in the above replies, im doing this dirty from the phone.

1)What about Trashalanche Garbo? < great attacker and proven in many decks to save lives.

2)What about Sharing the stage with Nagandel-GX (yes you lose some power with the malamars but provides a different route to dealing damage if something goes wrong)

3) Silvally-GX + memories to fight off weaknesses and provide UNGX and other basics free switching.

4) Acerola to keep our UNGX alive?

Good ideas. I really trying to get this deck to be a OHKO deck, because I think that is where the format is heading back towards. (hoping)

1- Garb doesn't give me that OHKO and its clunky because its a stage 1.
2- Nagandel doesn't give me enough damage.
4- Again in OHKO format my UNGX see little to no counters on it

3- SIlvally. I like this idea. Worth testing out. Its a little clunky because its a stage 1 but the benefit of free retreat and free energy recycle with some dmg is worth investigating.

Keep posting! I need all the help I can get!
 

Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
Running Silvally GX has some value, but it also removes some value as well.

You get free retreat for Basics, but that means your Silvally GXs can still get Guzma'd into the active and force you to get stuck. It also means that when you put Silvally GX into the active to attack and accelerate energy, you better also have a way to switch UNGX in when you're ready to go.

Silvally GX also needs 3 energy to attack, which isn't exactly viable without Malamar, and that means you're running 2 stage 1 lines, neither of which help you out with the deck's general stability whatsoever. You're also not running DCE in a deck that already has 2 types of basic energy. That's not consistent at all.

I did some poking around to see if there's any Silvally GX partners I might be considering for post rotation, but the 3 energy for attack is just way too slow compared to Naganadel GX's Beast Raid who can just pack Beast Rings to charge up the GX attack when the situation calls for it.

I also think you shouldn't be underestimating Naganadel GX, but UNGX is not the partner I would run with it. Naganadel GX/Stakataka GX is a legitimately competitive deck that forces extra energy onto UNGX to even swing for OHKOs. It forces a 2HKO game against pretty much every deck except for Dusk Mane Necrozma GX with a Choice Band or a 3 energy discard + choice band UNGX, which is just not consistent in any capacity.

I still think that the New Solgaleo GX that accelerates 2 energy instead of 1 is a better pick, but it just boils down to the fact that I wouldn't run UNGX as a partner with the New Solgaleo GX anyway. I'd just run Dusk Mane Necrozma GX and the original Solgaleo GX for Ultra Road.

I'll keep thinking about this deck list, but for now I'm all out of ideas.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Hi Duo,

Consider this variant which is rather stable and consistent:

Pokémon (14):
  • 1 Dawn Wings Necrozma GX (beatdown)
  • 2 Ulra Necrozma GX (beatdown)
  • 1 Necrozma GX (beatdown)
  • 2 Tapu Lele GX (search)
  • 1 Tapu Lele (beatdown)
  • 1 Mimikyu (beatdown)
  • 3 Malamar (accelerate)
  • 3 Inkay (evolution)
Trainer (32):
  • 1 Pokémon Fan Club (search)
  • 3 Sightseer (draw)
  • 3 Guzma (control)
  • 4 Cynthia (draw)
  • 3 Lillie (draw)
  • 4 Mysterious Treasure (search)
  • 1 Rescue Stretcher (retrieval)
  • 3 Choice Band (beatdown)
  • 2 Field Blower (discard)
  • 4 Ultra Ball (search)
  • 4 Altar of the Moone (retreat)
Energy (14):
  • 10 Psychic Energy
  • 3 Metal Energy
  • 1 Beast Energy

The single Pokémon Fan Club works fine since it reduces the pressure on the search items to find Inkay turn one and Malamar turn two.
 

Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
I think somewhere through the history of this thread I mentioned that Pokemon Fan Club is a good idea because you can get 2 Inkays out to set up for 2 Malamars, but I don't think I actually made a list around it.

This would be a deck where I would want 2 copies of Pokemon Fan Club, because you can't afford to miss setting up Inkay.

The deck's 2 biggest problems are setting up Malamars and finding a way to consistently switch between active and bench. If we can solve those we can have a functional deck.

Also Beast Ring is also just a pointless card in this deck since UNGX discards for attack, so running 0 copies is probably the right idea.

Pokemon x18

Ultra Necrozma GX x3
Necrozma GX x1
Dawn Wings Necrozma GX x2
Malamar x4
Inkay x4
Tapu Lele GX x3
Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo x1

Supporter x14

Cynthia x4
Sightseer (Sophocles placeholder) x4
Guzma x3
Pokemon Fan Club x2
Lady x1

Item x10

Mysterious Treasure x4
Nest Ball x3
Choice Band x3

Stadium x4

Altar of the Moone x4

Energy x14

Psychic Energy x9
Metal Energy x4
Beast Energy Prism Star x1

I'm looking at this right now for the time being. Adding Nest Ball gives you more consistency in finding either your 3rd Inkay or your Dawn Wings Necrozma GX, even after playing Pokemon Fan Club. Lady is still an excellent card for filling your hand and then later discarding it, as well as guaranteeing your Metals in the worst case scenario. I still don't like Altar of the Moone, but Switch forces you to have cards in hand while Altar of the Moone can just sit there and work for you. 4th copy of Guzma might be needed in this deck, removing the Lady or 1 copy of Nest Ball.

I added an extra copy of Psychic Energy from my list (8 up to 9) so that I can not feel so bad keeping an energy on Dawn Wings Necrozma GX for Altar of the Moone tech. My energy pool is edged slightly in favor of Metal since I do think Dusk Mane Necrozma Promo is one of the best tech cards for this deck (Fairy butchers this deck in a heartbeat & softening GX attackers by 60 HP with its 1st attack for 1 energy makes it so that you need less Malamars to get OHKOs with UNGX). Also I just think the 4th copy of Metal improves your odds of not having dead weight UNGXs that can't attack without needing the Lady at all. Considering cutting Lady for a 5th Metal energy.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Hi Duo,

Your Pokémon count is way too high. A total of two Tapu Lele GX is more than sufficient since this deck cannot afford to bench two of them anyway. I would also restrict myself to a total Pokémon count of 14-16 at most and run more trainers. Dusk Mane Necrozma is not needed since Gardevoir is ways too slow even post rotation with decks like Buzzwole, Malamar, Rayquaza, Virizion, Magcargo, Turbo Metal, and Zeraora variants running around. Fairy needs a decent Basic GX to get back into the game. I also question the use of Nest Ball over Ultra Ball since you need to fill the discard with Basic Psychic Energy and a maximum count of Mysterious treasure and Ultra Ball help a lot to accomplish this aim. Lady does not seem to fit into this deck from experience. Run a 2-1 count of Ultra Necrozma and Necrozma and you will be fine without the need to search for a specific energy. You also need ways more draw supporter. A total count of 10 draw supporter is mandatory for a speedy ohko deck like this one in this format. Look into Lillie. She is better than it seems at first glance post-rotation. At present the list you posted looks a little clunky and slow.
 

Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
I disagree with just about everything you said, and I think we're going to always be disagreeing with one another at least on this list, which is fine. This kind of discussion is the discussion we need for people to see both sides of the picture.

Gardevoir/Sylveon can be set up consistently (80% or more of the time) by turn 2/3 and is a huge threat. Sylveon GX is basically a basic GX thanks to Energy Evolution Eevee allowing you to get it out and Magical Ribbon as soon as Turn 1 going 2nd or Turn 2 going first. I've been playtesting it thoroughly, and currently it has the highest winrate of any deck I've built for post rotation. It's currently my pick for BDIF because it's the only deck in the game that guarantees its set up with Magical Ribbon. No deck can touch that level of consistency and turn 2/turn 3 aggression with discard recovery and enemy bench control (Plea GX). As if Fairy needed more ways to beat UNGX, Plea GX on 2 Malamars is an instant game over.

Pokemon are in my opinion the most important portion of the deck post rotation. That's why I stuff all my cards there. It used to be Supporters (Sycamore + N + Brigette), but now it's Pokemon and Items now that Trashalanche is going to see little to no play without Garbotoxin in the meta to back it up. Everything we do relies on Pokemon abilities and Pokemon set up attacks. Zoroark GX is THE best draw utility in the game. Alolan Vulpix searches Pokemon in any Stage 1 deck that needs set up and has lost access to Brigette, etc etc. If you don't have your Pokemon out on the bench you aren't getting anything done, and Supporters are no longer the best way to get access to them.

I don't care about running a few extra draw supporters when I can just run extra copies of the cards I need. Why play a supporter to hopefully draw what I want when I can just run another copy of what I want?

Just as a personal opinion, I think that 3 copies of Tapu Lele GX is just mandatory in decks that want supporter cards, especially turn 1 supporter cards (Pokemon Fan Club in this case). I will never use all 3 copies in UNGX, but I never want to miss T1 Pokemon Fan Club for 2 Inkays, ever.

I think of decks as case-by-case scenarios. I don't think just because it's agro means that I must have 10 draw supporters. This deck doesn't win without 2 Malamars in play. You have to play 4/4 Malamar to maximize seeing Malamar. I'm never going to run only 2 copies of my main attacker because if one is prized and all I have is one left, I'm not winning the game. You need enough resources for both the long game and the short game, not just assume that you're going to win by turn 4 or 5 every game even in an agro deck.

UNGX/Malamar is a deck that doesn't need much in hand once its set up, either. If you have 3 Psychic energy in the discard pile and 1 Metal on your UNGX, 1 Psychic on a Dawn Wings Necrozma GX and an Altar of Moone in play, you literally do not need to play a single card from hand to continuously loop your cycle. This isn't like Rayquaza GX that needs to continuously snowball the whole game. This is a deck that sets up an engine and watches it run. That's my experience with it from playtesting it several dozen times.

Lady is still a card that I'm uncertain of its value, but as a 1 card "personal tech," I fail to see it being the reason why I'm losing games. I just need more reason to run something else other than a 4th Nest Ball or something along those lines.

Friendly reminder that I always encourage people to do whatever they want with their lists. I just have my own opinion on how the deck works, and until I actually see how post rotation meta falls into place, we're all in the dark trying our best to get an edge. Someone's going to be wrong and someone's going to be right, but that's okay.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Hi Duo,

Not trying to push you into anything. Just wanted to provide some assistance after reading somewhere in this post that the deck performed less well than you hoped for an was less consistent than you expected. Maybe it is playing style but I always have consistency issues with low draw supporter counts in SM-on combined with a high number of Pokémon. I personally prefer to draw into my supporters instead of having to use a Pokémon to search for them with a one-time-use ability such as Tapu Lele GX. For me draw supporters and item-based Pokémon search are the backbone of a consistent deck. They help me to manipulate my deck and hand alike. While you still want a turn one Tapu Lele GX to either search for Pokémon Fan Club or Lillie I would prefer not to have to bench a second one since HP 170 is still a quite easy number to hit for in SM-on. For me the choice between Pokémon Fand Club and Lillie depends on what is in my hand and deck. Having access to all eight Pokémon search items and being able to play out may hand makes me lead toward Lillie. In other cases I prefer Pokémon Fan Club. Since the deck wants two Malamar turn two with two to three Psychic Energy in the discard to be accelerated to the main attackers I would pick Mysterious Treasure over Nest Ball any day since it literally searchers for all of your Pokémon exkluding Dusk Mane Necrozma and helps the deck to get energy into the discard pile to be accelerated with Malamar. I can definbitely see Sylveon GX being good in SM-on but I am not sold on Gardevoir. I would prefer a decent Basic Pokémon to go with Sylveon GX that can deliver some ohkos. Hope this provides some assistance and you do not conceive it as a criticism.
 
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Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
Dark Espeon,

I never take the things you say as criticism. You're one of my favorite people to go back and forth with on these forums because you don't seem to ever take things personally, and having a discussion with someone who has a different opinion always provides more insight.

I have experimented with Lillie in this deck and it has...sporatic results.

Some games it's fantastic. I play my hand to 2 or 3 and draw to 8, and I end up drawing everything that I need.

Other times I have an opening hand where I can only play down to 5 or 6 and it doesn't net me anything. I have also had situations where even if I play down to 2 and draw up to 8, I still don't draw what I need.

Deep down I'm also afraid of playing Lillie into 8 unplayable cards and then my opponent running Copycat to benefit off of it.

Pokemon Fan Club just guarantees that I get the most time-sensitive part of the set up process out of the way - the 2 Inkay. Between 4 Cynthia and 4 Sightseer, the mathematics have it that I should be naturally seeing one of those supporters in my hand each turn without needing to Lele for them (of course that doesn't always happen). I think it's a playstyle thing/the way we approach turns. For me, the first turn is the most important, and I will do whatever it takes to get guaranteed results instead of swinging for things like Lillie and leaving my T1 up to chance. From there, I can play things like Cynthia to reroll my hand T2 and beyond in order to have another chance at getting what I need, and that's generally been pretty reliable for me as a general strategy in most decks.

Steven's Decision is a card that's still crossed my mind a few times, but using it is a guaranteed loss of one turn since you can't play down the cards you search, so you can't Steven's Decision for 2 Inkay and a Malamar - you'll just be a turn behind. At this point, I'm almost completely convinced that Steven's Decision is a card only to be used in the Metagross theme deck.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Hi Duo,

Thanks. It is the same here. I do like constructive discussions with people holding different points of view.

I suggested Lillie since this deck is able to play its hand down fast in case you use a stable count of four Ultra Ball and four Mysterious Treasure to search out the Pokémon you need in addition to some usefull tools and stadium cards. The number of Pokémon that can be benched is limited to a certain extent by bench space. If you can play down your hand and have all eight Pokémon search items in the deck or your hand the risk to use Lillie as a turn one supporter are limited. If a significant number of search items is prized this tactic reduces your search options later on and may reduce the likelihood to find two Malamar turn two. In these cases I would rather use Pokémon Fan Club and hope to be able to discard a reliable amount of Basic Psychic Energy on the second turn with the remaining search items. again, which option is superior depends on your hand and the cards available to you in the deck. I just like to have both options available to be more flexible and adapt to the current situation at hand without compromising consistency too much.

Personally I believe that Copycat is a classic 1-off card in the post-rotation format. The main reason for this belief is that I noticed that hand sizes are considerably lower in the post-rotation SM-on format than now. Sightseer is similar to Professor Sycamore but at best it only draws you five cards in total instead of the former seven cards. these two extra cards from Professor sycamore do matter more than the switch from 5 cards to 6 cards when going from Shauna to Cynthia. While it was possible to get away with four Professor Juniper and four N in Black and White we still had times when we felt that that draw power was insufficient. Sightseer draws less cards than Professor Juniper and Cynthia does not disrupt the opponent similar to N. For that reason I believe that the likelihood to have turns without a draw supporter in hand are more likely now. To compensate for that effect I proposed to increase the draw supporter count to a stable 10-12 cards to increase the chance to draw into a new draw supporter or Guzma either at the start of your turn or by having used a draw supporter last turn. Thus far the most attractive draw supporter option are: Cynthia, Sightseer, Lillie, Tate and Liza, Professor Kukui, Tv Reporter, and Sophocles. You could theoretically supplement the draw supporter line with a draw Pokémon. Examples would be Minum and Plusle from SM7 and Zoroark GX. However they take up bench space and Zoroark needs to be evolved from Zorua before it can draw you cards. For that reason he does not increase the consistency of any deck in the first two turns. There are other more specific draw Pokémon but all of them are attack-based and sort of dependent on the deck you use in terms of viability and usefulness.

Tried Steven's Decision and have been less than impressed with it. The fact that it ends the turn without getting stuff on the board can slow you down considerably Personally I believe that this is not a good idea in ohko decks like Malamar and several others. Seems we agree on this point.

Hope this provides some assistance in tweaking the deck to your liking.
 

Duo

RIP Nessa 2023
Member
As far as revising this deck is concerned, it might make more sense for me to swap out the 1 copy of Lady for 1 copy of Lillie, but I value hard searching a lot more than draw power post rotation because of the things you mentioned.

Cynthia & Sightseer are a lot weaker than Sycamore & N, and our other draw supporters are even weaker/more situational than that. Sophocles is a decent supporter, but the discard 2 is actually very heavy. In a lot of ways, I think that TV Reporter is actually better than Sophocles by a lot. You still net a total +2 to hand size overall with both supporters, but TV Reporter allowing you to discard after the draw not before the draw gives you more flexibility to discard something you don't feel bad about. I almost never like what I have to discard for Sophocles, and if you're staring at a 4-5 card hand, killing 2 of those cards is usually a really hard decision. Sure, TV Reporter only digs 3 cards deep and not 4, but it's also a lot more universally playable due to the lower discard cost. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw ourselves in a format with 4 Cynthia 4 Sightseer 3-4 TV Reporter in most decks.

I am a HUGE advocate of a 2/2 Zoroark GX line in every deck that has the bench space to use it (this deck isn't one of them). Making Zoroark GX a 4/4 line in a deck and adding a 2/2 back up attacker has potential to be one of the best decks possible just because of the fact that Zoroark GX's Trade got stronger with the "nerf" to draw supporters. Having 3 Zoroark GX's on the bench allows you to dig 6 cards deep into your deck every turn, and that level of potency allows you to open up your supporters for things like Fan Club to get set up and then even Olivia to just guarantee 2 Zoroark GX immediately afterward, but I digress.

The real point I'm after is that I would rather spec my deck lists towards cards that I think have the most value. More draw supporters would be nice, but I don't think Kukui's draw 2 is ever going to save me, and Tate & Liza is just a worse Cynthia that I have a hard time justifying space for in the deck. My problem with Tate & Liza isn't the fact that it leaves you with a 5 card hand size. It's the fact that shuffle draw 5 makes it a lot more difficult for you to actually dig more cards out of your deck. When you have a dead hand of unplayable cards that's 5 or more cards, playing Tate & Liza doesn't thin your deck at all. It rerolls your hand, but it doesn't progress the state of your deck. And if you're sitting on 6+ cards in hand that you can't really play, then Tate & Liza will actually make your deck thicker as a result. Shuffle draw 6 from Cynthia is just a value where you can consistently hand fix while drawing 2 to 3 cards deeper into your deck where Tate & Liza would only draw 1 or 2 cards. I find it hard to justify running a supporter that would only usually draw me 1 to 2 cards deeper into my deck when I could just increase the counts of the cards I need by 1 to 2 instead. Increased counts of important cards both increases the likelihood of seeing them when I do play Cynthia/Sightseer as well as gives my deck more total resources to work with.

I guess the tl;dr version of what I'm trying to say is that I'm trying to optimize my odds of hitting crucial cards after playing draw supporters as opposed to trying to making sure I have a draw supporter in hand at all times. And as previously mentioned, I see this deck as a deck that sets up an engine and then runs it. It doesn't need very many cards in hand after a successful set up, and I actually do think a 4th copy of Guzma is a better decision overall to give the deck more control over its target and its own positioning. To that end, I think I will -1 Tapu Lele GX for +1 Guzma in this list, as well as -1 Lady for +1 Nest Ball to compensate for the small hit in set up consistency. You just really can't afford to get stuck with the wrong active in this deck, ever. As for Lady, you usually won't be swinging for big numbers until turn 2 or 3 anyway, which should be enough time to find the 1 Metal you need. You just never have room on the bench to play 2 Lele either, so if you Lele for Pokemon Fan Club (which you probably will), then that 1 copy of Lady is pretty much lost in the deck anyway. I'll stick to the rule of thumb of "always play 1 more copy of Lele than you expect to actually use in a single game."

If we were talking Rayquaza GX that always wants to have energy in hand to keep attaching and snowballing, then I'd totally agree with 10-12 draw supporters. But not in a deck like UNGX. The only thing UNGX needs to worry about is replacing KO'd Pokemon after it's set up.
 

Dark Espeon

Dark Avatar
Member
Hi Duo,

I totally agree on your assessment of the current state regarding draw supporters in SM-on. Although I do not use Tate and Liza in my SM-on decks since Sightseer has been released I do still believe that the card can have merrits if you are able to play out your hand as much as possible. Prior to the release of Sightseer in SM7a it seemed to be a decent draw supporter given the other options available to us at that time.

Assumed that you are partial toa 2-2 Zoroark GX line as a draw engine based on your posts. It is in fact awesome on paper but when building my decks I always had issues to justify the bench space that needs to be deboted to either one or two of them. You also have to keep in mind that two Zoroark GX are essentially equivalent to Sophocles. The main difference is that Zoroark GX is permanently available and you can play another supporter in addition to it. However this comes at the cost of two bench spaces and thus was the main issue I had in considering to include him in any of the SM-on decks that I tested thus far. Eight of them can be seen at this forum. I can see a deck focused on Zoroark and an equally thick main attacker line as being viable. I am currently considering to pair him with Magcargo and Magcargo GX and use Lysandre's Lab as a disruption stadium since no other stadium seems to benefit that team. Magcargo has synergy with Zoroak on his own and Magcargo GX solves the problem that Zoroark Gx is unable to achieve ohkos on his own which I consider to be critical nowadays and especially in the SM-on format. I would also include Victini Prism Star into this deck to recycle the discarded energies while potentially yielding a ohko. Did not test this idea thus far but Magcargo seems to be a decent partner provided that one is looking for a partner able to achive ohkos on its own.

I do not completely agree on your assessment that Necrozma Malamar does not need a stable supporter flow once it is set up. There are times when you have to replace your Malamars which does take time and access to supporters. It also helps to access stadium cards such as Altar of the Moone which is vital to your main tactic and I expect most decks to run 4-6 stadium and field blower counts in different combinations. Thus, your stadium may not be as long-living as it is now. I would also want to have a decent mix of Pokémon GX and non-GX attackers in most of my decks to have multiple options and to allow me to trade more favorable from time to time. Psychic has a massive arsenal of real good Pokémon non-GX at its disposal to work with. In my own deck I would love to fit a third non-GX attacker such as Dawn Wings Necrozma non-GX, Deoxys SM7, or Mewtwo SM-P but I still need to find room for it without compromising consistency. This final minor tweaks are often the most difficult to make for me.
 

Rusery

Ethical Vegan Pokemaster
Member
After a couple days playing the above variations, i've spawned my own here that solves a few issues.

My main observations about the above lists are that, yes, its clunky as hell. Theres no good flow to this deck, at least not that i've been able to conjure. I draw into Tapu-GX way too often on T1 in above lists or im not using U Necrozma at all. Theres a struggle with energy and theres a struggle with drawing into what i need for the Mala line while also attaching energy normally and staying in the game. The deck has no stall tactics and im often left hanging around watching the opponent set up with me.

If the above is going to be the case, then i want options, and i want them to be somewhat stable.

Trainer Options:
To solve the Tapu problem i've added Acerola to pull her off the main attacker slot. This also acts as a stall tactic, allowing Tapu (or anything else) to take hits and be peeled off the bench or active position, giving us set up time and denying prizes.

Lady x2, yeah, basically because no matter what i do, i end up with prized metal energy, and this ends up royally screwing my early game. If i don't have Lady, i search for her immediately with Tapu. Lady x2 allows energy to drop down to 8/3/1 and this is still meh for the initial draw. Would add one more Psychic, but more testing needed.

I've added Ultra Ball x2 for help in setting up Malamar better and finding whatever you need. I found having 4 was too demanding and not needed with Sophocles, Lillie AND Cynthia RNG, along with Mysterious Treasure x4. 6 poke-search seems optimal to me.

Poke Options:
Trasho Garbo
was added here for mid-late game pressure, where if you've screwed up bad or cant afford another GX prize loss, you have some KOpower behind 1 energy investment. This is mid-late only, so its meant to be drawn into naturally and no searching should be needed.

Dawn Wings Necro Promo x1 - GX attack can be clutch. Alt attacker in the active on Turn 1 isn't horrible. Its great for stalling if my Altar has been removed 4 times (like it always is every game). Pairs well with Acerola after its had its head knocked on for a couple turns giving me set-up time.

In closing: Ultra Necrozma GX is our star and making is headline is key. Everything else in the deck is to support it in some way or another. I always try to steer away from alt attackers for that sole purpose. The more you focus on one strat, the better you're able to refine technique.

Possible adds:
Nihlego-GX - GX attack adds 2 prize cards to the opponent, can be set up with Malamar, and can be peeled with Acerola.
Enhanced Hammer - people are currently playing around this harder than normal, leaving it dead in hand. Might get worse, but if not, this should be added back in.


Pokemons x 16
Trubbish / Garbodor (Trashalanche) 2/2
Inkay / Malamar (accel) 3/3
Tapu Lele-GX (searcher) x2
U-Necrozma-GX x3
Dawn Wings Necrozma-GX (promo) x1

Supports 16
Sophocles x3
Lillie x3
Guzma x3
Lady x2
Cynthia x3
Acerola x2

Items 12
Ultra Ball x2
Mysterious Treasure x4
Rescue Stretcher x1
Choice Band x3
Field Blower x2

Stadiums 4
Altar of the Moone x4

Energy 12

8 Psychic
3 Metal
1 Beastie
 

momand

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I honestly just had the idea to cut Altar of the Moone and run Silvally GX as both an alternate means of energy acceleration as a means for free retreat. Altar of the Moone has a lot of problems, especially:
  • Not being able to be searched out
  • Easily discarded with Field Blower
  • Easily discarded with other stadiums
Of course, Silvally has its own problems:
  • Two prizes
  • Takes an extra bench space
Not really a suggestion but more of something to just try out.
 
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