Discussion Tier List for 2018 Rotation

[JDA]

The problem with Kiawe is that your turn ends without being able to attack. If you get KO'd by your opponent in the next turn - and there are going to be plenty of decks out there in August that will hit for a lot of damage really early in the game - you basically just blew your game.

Look at it this way: If you Kiawe on a Pokemon and you're going up against Gardy GX, Gardy will do AT LEAST 180 to you on the next turn. I'm not saying there's not a place in the meta for Kiawe - it's one of my top ten cards in BUS - but I'm not sure that it's meta defining.

Just to come back on this (very late, I know). There is no problem with Kiawe at all. Ending your turn without being able to attack still means your giving up 1 attack for something that you could only normally archieve with 3-4 turns of putting regular energy on Pokemon. You have the choice where to put those 4, if you do this on a pokemon that is going to get KO'd next turn the player can be what I consider to be a bad player. Blowing your own game is also another choice in this matter.

If you start and have Kiawe your opponent cannot Gardy GX and will run prizes behind. Once it does 180 damage there is nothing that actually stopes the engine with Volcanion EX from allowing you to 1HKO the Gardy GX back.

It boils down to understanding the deck and Pokemon you work Kiawe with. If you run 1 Kiawe with a couple of Tapu Lele's the whole effect is way to random.
If you increase the factor of it showing up turn 1 and/or 2 your well set up to snowball the whole game. Nice as Gardy GX is this is still a stage 2 which requires drastic set ups and without VS Seeker re-filling that hand isn't half as easy as it is now.

 

[Adi]

If you choose to go first, and manage to get a Kiawe off it is a very powerful card because you couldn't attack anyways. You could be fairly consistent if you run 4 Ultra Ball, 2+ Tapu Lele GX, 3+ Kiawe. This can make fire decks very powerful, and even if you don't plan to get it off on the first it is still a good card because like JDA said you may end one turn, but you have set up a pokemon which would take 2 or most likely 3 turns if you did it manually and with Max Elixir's.

 

[21times]

Agree that Kiawe is a very good accelerator - I'm just seeing Kiawe onto Ho-Oh ... pass ... Guzma your Kiawe into the active... Gardevoir into the active and your Ho-Oh and all the energy on it go into the discard.

I'm not saying that it won't work, I'm just saying that it's not completely 100% broken.

 

[JDA]

Agree that Kiawe is a very good accelerator - I'm just seeing Kiawe onto Ho-Oh ... pass ... Guzma your Kiawe into the active... Gardevoir into the active and your Ho-Oh and all the energy on it go into the discard.

I'm not saying that it won't work, I'm just saying that it's not completely 100% broken.

Luckily very little is broken. The thing however is that I dont even believe Ho-Oh GX is the way to go. The regular Volcanion hits for 100 with 3 energies, one of those energies can easily be transfered to say a Flareon EX on the bench. In addition to that the Volcanion only gives away one price if it does get KO'ed and when it does you can recover those energies as you like. Ho-Oh GX likely will be part of the deck but only as a silver bullet against Water decks.

My point however is that as with any rotation, decks that allready have proven to be succesful and recieve boosts are the decks that will be the most effective with BUS. You can allready gain some experience by playing this deck at a competitive level now and with Kaiwe the deck just accelerates even quicker.

Now more decks will be part of the top decks! Gardevoir GX with Xerneas is a very fast set up akin to what Kaiwe decks are doing, Passimian decks are still really fast, Alolan Muk GX decks have an excellent set up that is 'energy free', Greninja BREAK decks have the wall tool they want with BUS Alolan Ninetales to stall and shuriken stuff to KO and in general I'd say the mayority of different colour decks have a competitive strategy.

VS Seeker however still will be a huge loss for those who rely on Stage 2 and do not have the set up Pokemon, so there is still something to really consider there. Because the set up is really simple. If you require Stage 2 pokemons for your games you require more cards and if the only two Supporters who gain you that are now Prof and N there is still more required to remain consistent. Olivia and Brigette offer solutions but arn't VS Seeker Prof and N.
The consistency of Volcanion decks to me with Kaiwe is better as the rest, as there is no option to start out poorly really. Even a Volcanion EX (there for the engine) with Kaiwe is an aggressive and effective opening.

 

[Adi]

Does anyone have any other suggestions to add to the tier list. I put down most of the ones I can think of, but I'm new to burning shadows and shining legends, so there might be decks I missed.

 

[JDA]

Does anyone have any other suggestions to add to the tier list. I put down most of the ones I can think of, but I'm new to burning shadows and shining legends, so there might be decks I missed.

For now you have most stuff covered. The thing is that there are bound to come more decks overtme, as such I wouldn't focus too much on what is the precieved Tier 2 and 3.
For example Decidueye GX seems to have lost some populairity but frankly speaking it's still a very powerful option and more GX like it exist who are basically just waiting for another set to see if they get boosted or not.

From my perspective the top 3 decks that are running on full engines right now are:
- Volcanion EX/Turtonator GX, because of Kaiwe, which is a great energy boost.
- Alolan Ninetales GX/Greninja BREAK, because of BUS Alolan Ninetales and Alolan Vulpix, which is a great wall and set up.
- Gardevoir GX/Sylveon GX, because of how energy heavy the meta is, so largely thanks to DCE.

You included Garbodor in your tier 1 but I personally do not believe he belongs in there or is as relevant as the above 3 after the september rotation. Not that I dislike the deck but the removal of VS Seeker from the format directly leads to much less Items in the format. At which point it's not difficult to play around Trashalanche and thanks to Guzma sniping out Grabodors in general will not be difficult thing to do. 120/100 Hp really doesn't cut it if it's part of your main plan.

As always though, a lot can change in the matter of a single set/promo. The moment we have acces to Zoroak GX I believe that it will be part of the top contenders to watch out for. Not only because it's very easy to include into the Zoroak BREAK deck (and thus a technical upgrade) but also because it has some really nice synergy with Darkrai GX and is a drawing engine in itself. Which is typical to the 3 cornerstones of incredibly good Pokemon, in the form of high attack (dmg), high consistency (draw and/or search) and good resilience (hp/afordable retreat).

Cheers,

 

[21times]

I've seen a number of Gardy GX decklists and have yet to see one with Sylveon GX. It's surprised me because they seem to be a great pairing. If you can Lele turn 1 for Brigette and get your Ralts down and then Ribbon for Rare Candy, Gardy, and probably a Sycamore, you should be in really good shape turn 2. Granted your opponent will probably N you, but if they don't, you're firing away on turn 2.

If you don't have Golisopod on your list, it probably should be there. One youtuber said in testing that in 8 of the 9 matches he tested, he hit for at least 120 on turn 1. I saw one video where Gardy beat Golly 2-1, but I think Golly is still going to be a good deck, even after FoGP rotates.

Grampa, Vespiquen, and Buluvolt all should still be on the radar as well. And I agree with Adi that Alolan Ninetales GX will probably tech in the non-GX Ninetales to force everyone to balance their decks. Other decks that tech in Alolan Vulpix probably will as well.

 

[JDA]

Exact, to me the meta now revolves on the decks that can set up the quickest, by large because I don't see a lot of locks/tools being the fastest alternative route to have a good boardstate from turn 1 and on.

I think Golisopod GX is really fast and almost there aswell. The prime reason why I think it won't show up just yet is because of Volcanion and Kaiwe based decks. The weakness allows the Volcanion deck to 1HKO any Golispod GX that rolls in it way without much effort. Though I do indeed think it has the speed to compete with both Alolan Ninetales GX and Gardevoir GX.

To me it's another reason to really respect good basic starters. Because even if they get eventually KOd the set up is all that is required to awnser that. Sylveon GX/Gardevoir GX decks should at least have a pair of Fairy Garden to ensure fast decks arn't snowballing them too fast. Xerneas and Xerneas BREAK are also two Pokemon I think would be a good 2-2 line for Gardevoir GX based decks. It speeds stuff up and is a very decent secondary attacker.

 

[21times]

Just to let you all know, I was able to execute a triple shuriken last night ... or at least I would have had my opponent not conceded.

It takes two turns to execute, you've got to Fisherman back energy the first turn and then Guzma the next.

 

[Trainer Josh]

Just to let you all know, I was able to execute a triple shuriken last night ... or at least I would have had my opponent not conceded.

It takes two turns to execute, you've got to Fisherman back energy the first turn and then Guzma the next.

It's definitely doable nobody doubted that. But the fact that you made a post here about it, simply confirms how rare the occasion actually is. My deck has 4 Greninja BREAK, 3 Guzma, and 2 Fisherman, yet I have never been able to do it. Without VS Seeker, there are too many cards required to pull it off, plus having 4 energies in hand is not a reliable bet even with Fisherman.

 

[Nyora]

Did some testing an even without the GX, Ninetales from BUS is really solid in this format. I think it'll be good post rotation.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I REALLY think people underestimate how good Greninja BREAK is going to be in a evolution based format. Is anyone willing to test Greninja BREAK / Porygon Z?

 

[Adi]

That sounds like a fun idea, but remember the more Greninja BREAK decks people see the more Giratina promo's you will see. Just a word of advice to those who plan on making Greninja BREAK decks for the new rotation.

 

[Trainer Josh]

I REALLY think people underestimate how good Greninja BREAK is going to be in a evolution based format. Is anyone willing to test Greninja BREAK / Porygon Z?

If your talking about the Porygon Z from Burning Shadows, I have an even better card for you. Look at a Pokémon named Espeon EX from BreakPoint. It strikes me as a more consistent version of Porygon Z for obvious reasons. It also isn't going out of format next roation, so you can use it in standard.

 

[Trainer Josh]

That sounds like a fun idea, but remember the more Greninja BREAK decks people see the more Giratina promo's you will see. Just a word of advice to those who plan on making Greninja BREAK decks for the new rotation.

Honestly, even if Greninja BREAK becomes more popular I highly doubt we will see an increase in Promo Giratinas being played. Giratina only applies to Greninja and Zoroark so unless Greninja becomes the next Seismitoad, Night March, Vespiqueen, etc., people won't waste the space in their decks unless they suffer from weakness. And let's be honest Greninja is good deck, but it would need some serious breakthrough to hit that level of competitiveness.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

If your talking about the Porygon Z from Burning Shadows, I have an even better card for you. Look at a Pokémon named Espeon EX from BreakPoint. It strikes me as a more consistent version of Porygon Z for obvious reasons. It also isn't going out of format next roation, so you can use it in standard.

I'm aware of Espeon-EX. I was thinking of a way to not end your turn attacking with it but it still works and uses less deck spots.

 

[ozzie347]

This is still kind of speculating until worlds and the new format comes, but here would be my updated tier list.

Tier 1

Gardevoir GX
Alolan Ninetales GX

Tier 2

Metagross GX
Quad Sylveon GX
Tapu Bulu GX/Vikavolt
Volcanion EX
Drampa GX/Garbodor
Golisopod GX/Variants

Tier 3
Lapras GX/Waterbox
Tapu Koko GX/Electrode
Greninja BREAK
Zoroak BREAK/Variants
Darkrai EX/GX.

Definitely would put Ninetails into the T2 category. You're hard pressed to find to find other top tier decks that don't have a way to deal 110 dmg from a non-EX/GX. You've got Gallade, Oranguru, baby Koko, Vikavolt, baby Volc, Garb, etc. Will still be a good deck, but not up there with Garde.

Volcanion should be T1, it has a 50/50 matchup with Garde and 1-2 Ho oh tech let's you play against most water decks with a 40/60 at worst (except Greninja maybe). No need to run Altar of the Sunne, it's a terrible card. Stick to 3-4 Brooklet Hill. I'm thinking Volc actually beats Garde as BDIF.

Sylveon doesn't deserve to be on the list at all. Too much energy acceleration/single attachment attackers. You lose too many meta matchups that taking it to a tournament is asking to not make top cut.

Bulu/Volt I'd probably put in T1. Without Hex it's mostly just weak to Garbotoxin matchups. Also, it can hit that 230 sweet spot with a Choice Band and Kukui or 1 promo Lurantis.

Drampa/Garb I'd leave in T1 as well. Po Town, Necrozma GX, and Espeon EX let you continue to take on the meta.

Greninja Break I see as a high T2, maybe even a low T1. It beats nearly every other meta deck if it manages get to set up. Problem is, it's known to not set up fairly often.

 

[Trainer Josh]

I'm aware of Espeon-EX. I was thinking of a way to not end your turn attacking with it but it still works and uses less deck spots.

Not ending your turn is a big plus, but on the other hand it is a stage 2 Pokémon. Running another stage 2 besides Greninja in a Greninja deck is kinda ridiculous, especially because Greninja has a tight deck list.

 

[Adi]

Alolan Ninetales GX: I think your statement about Alolan Ninetales is sort of not really true. First of all most competitive Alolan Ninetales GX decks plan to run 2 baby Alolan Ninetales, so if one gets knocked out you can put another in to finish the job. Some decks will slide through baby Alolan Ninetales in which case you move to the actual game plan which is still very good.

Volcanion EX: Both of your statements are very bold in my opinion. Going 40-60 against water decks. Maybe you can 35-65 if you run Altar of the Sunne and you tech in a Ho Oh GX, but you claim Altar of the Sunne is trash, so I would now make your odds 30-70 if you are a good player. Also no one runs Altar of the Sunne over Brooklet Hill they tech in 2 plus the Brooklet Hills. The point is I don't think it will do 40-60 against water decks. Also saying Volcanion beats Gardevoir GX also doesn't seem very accurate. Gardevoir can setup turn 2 using Diancie which most competitive decks use. Also Volcanion EX runs 3 energy to attack so Gardevoir will just feed off of that.

Sylveon GX: Sylveon GX doesn't seem like it should go on the list, but I have actually seen it and playtested it myself, and it is good. I'm trying not to be bias, and I highlight a really good combo it can pull off fairly easily in my deck analysis of it. I can understand if people don't know about it or think it is good. You are one of the first people to tell me it should not be on the list though. It kind of wavered between tier 2 and 3 on my previous list, but someone made some good points about it to me which made it seem like it should be on tier 2.

Drampa GX/Garbodor: I have actually heard people say it should be tier 1, and just as much maybe more say it should be tier 2 because it is getting worse. One reason it is getting worse is because Vs Seeker is going out of format. This means less items in the form of Vs Seeker and heavier support lines.

Greninja BREAK: I could see Greninja as a tier 2 deck, but for sure not tier 1. It does not nearly beat every other deck in the deck if it gets set up. I have watched it and know someone who plays it. That seems like a biased statement. Again I think it could be a tier 2 deck because it does pretty well when it gets set up. Unfortunately it is not always consistent, but I would say it is consistent enough. It actually used to be a tier 2 deck in my previous tier list, so I will make it one in this one too. Thanks for the feedback. I hope this helped.

 

[TheDude133]

Tier 1

Gardevoir GX
Alolan Ninetales GX

Tier 2

Metagross GX
Quad Sylveon GX
Tapu Bulu GX/Vikavolt
Volcanion EX
Drampa GX/Garbodor
Golisopod GX/Variants
Greninja BREAK

Tier 3
Lapras GX/Waterbox
Tapu Koko GX
Zoroak BREAK/Variants
Darkrai EX/GX

Your Tier 2 line has a lot of Tier 1 decks in it.

Volcanion (Probably the best rush deck in the game right now with Turn 1 Kaiwe+Ho-oh), Metagross (Out of your Tier 1+2 brackets, it has one bad match up in Volcanion and that's it) and Tapu-Bulu (No Hex Maniac, and the deck is already a Tier 1 bubble pre-rotation) are all Tier 1.

Also tier lists should be results based, and considering Sylveon GX hasn't seen round 5 of swiss before dropping, it shouldn't be on here at all.

Furthermore, Darkrai and Zoroark should be Tier 2 minimum. Both decks are incredibly strong and have few bad match-ups in the tier 2 bracket. The can still make top cut in major tournaments, and are still incredibly powerful.

As a side note, I think people are putting too much hype on Mini-Alolan Ninetails. He's not Pyroar or Sigilyph. Both of those cards were good because the decks they played against almost never had a counter to them. Ninetails however, is much easier to out. Metagross players will play Cobalion, Bulu can kill it with Vikavolt, Volcanion has Mini Volc, Garbodor can out it, Dark has Yveltal, Gardevoir has Geomancy Xerneas. All of these cards can easily out Mini-Tails. Not to mention pure Ninetails GX without Owl loses Rough Seas and Hex Maniac. The deck loses a lot with both variants and doesn't get anything in return. It has a bad Gardevoir, Metagross, VikaBulu, and Garbodor match-up without having Owl+Forest. I just don't think a Safegaurd Ninetails that is easily outed is going to save Alolan Ninetails.