Discussion State of Standard - CEC

[Yaginku]

Also ban Florges before welder, welder is the reason ADP isn't pretty much the only attacking deck in format right now.

ADP is horribly slow compared to "six energy on turn two" and there are many decks that would have very favorable match-ups against ADP (especially other Tag Teams), if they couldn't also have to compete with one the most broken supporters in years.
Florges is a child of an unhealthy format - there are dozens of techs that beat dolls, but you cannot fit them in decks that also have to match Welder's pace.

 

[imashbuttons]

Welder has absolutely zero drawback, if we're talking about what needs to be banned, I really don't think it's a contest lmao

 

[CrownAxe]

Welder has absolutely zero drawback, if we're talking about what needs to be banned, I really don't think it's a contest lmao

Strictly speaking, Hau has no drawbacks either but that doesn't make it broken and in need of banning

Welder is undoubtedly one of the best cards in standard right now. But simply being really good doesn't warrant a card being banned. It needs to be so good and overpowered that it is hurting the competitive meta. But when you look at the results of recent regional like San Diego and see the variety of decks that are competitively relevant and AREN'T playing Welder it makes it clear that Welder isn't actually a problem that needs to be banned.

 

[Yaginku]

Strictly speaking, Hau has no drawbacks either but that doesn't make it broken and in need of banning

The drawback of Hau is that you cannot play another supporter - meaning you only get to draw, you don't get to accelerate. Welder gives you everything in one card - acceleration and card advantage.

It needs to be so good and overpowered that it is hurting the competitive meta.

"Hurting the competitive meta" is very vague - you could argue that every Tag Team is hurting the competitive meta, by making non-GX Pokemon that don't have a gimmick completely unplayable. But Welder is a single card that is simultaneously overpowered in a vacuum and seriously limiting the amount of decks that are allowed to participate. It makes Psychic and its Malamars the only other competitive type of Energy.

 

[CrownAxe]

The drawback of Hau is that you cannot play another supporter - meaning you only get to draw, you don't get to accelerate. Welder gives you everything in one card - acceleration and card advantage.

"Cannot play another supporter" applies to Welder as well. Not to mention Welder does have a drawback of being unplayable if you have no fire energy in hand. My point though was that simply saying "Welder is broken because it has no drawback" isn't an actual point.

"Hurting the competitive meta" is very vague - you could argue that every Tag Team is hurting the competitive meta, by making non-GX Pokemon that don't have a gimmick completely unplayable. But Welder is a single card that is simultaneously overpowered in a vacuum and seriously limiting the amount of decks that are allowed to participate. It makes Psychic and its Malamars the only other competitive type of Energy.

It's not vague at all. A healthy meta needs two things

A) Has variety (multiple decks are viable, variation of archetypes, variation in deck building, basically being not stagnant)
B) Allows for player skill to significantly affect the outcome (basically their aren't any deck that auto-win, win completely off of chance, or it's ability to win is completely unaffected by what the opponent does)

If a card results in the meta losing either of these two elements then it's hurting the meta. So when we look at Welder it isn't ruining this at all. Saying Welder is seriously limiting the amount of decks and that Psychic with malamar is the only other competitive energy type is completely false. And it's so easy to know this by just looking at recent tournaments results such as San Diego regionals https://limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/?id=192. If you look at all the different decks that made day 2 there were 16 different kinds of decks present and only 5 of them used welder, and only 1 used malamar. That means over 2/3rds of the competitive meta don't use the engines you insist are the only competitively viable ones. And out of the 55 players in day 2 only 21 of them were play decks with Welder in them and only 5 decks with malamar as well. So 53% of the top decks were not play Welder or Malamar.

Welder is objectively not limiting the meta, and it definitely isn't doing it so hard that it needs to be banned

 

[Yaginku]

"Cannot play another supporter" applies to Welder as well. Not to mention Welder does have a drawback of being unplayable if you have no fire energy in hand. My point though was that simply saying "Welder is broken because it has no drawback" isn't an actual point.

That's really not an issue with the amount of ways you can get Fire Energy into your hand arbitrarily.

It's not vague at all. A healthy meta needs two things

A) Has variety (multiple decks are viable, variation of archetypes, variation in deck building, basically being not stagnant)
B) Allows for player skill to significantly affect the outcome (basically their aren't any deck that auto-win, win completely off of chance, or it's ability to win is completely unaffected by what the opponent does)

If a card results in the meta losing either of these two elements then it's hurting the meta. So when we look at Welder it isn't ruining this at all.

If these are your requirements for a healthy meta, then we are definitely not experiencing a healthy meta at all right now. We can disagree on what directly causes it, but:
Variety - Absolute no on that front. There is a very clear line between what is viable and what isn't, deckbuilding is severely limited and there is an open separation between a few powerful decks and a few gimmick decks made specifically to counter them.
Skill - The decks are significantly more streamlined and linear, leading to more autowins and autolosses.

Saying Welder is seriously limiting the amount of decks and that Psychic with malamar is the only other competitive energy type is completely false. And it's so easy to know this by just looking at recent tournaments results such as San Diego regionals https://limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/?id=192. If you look at all the different decks that made day 2 there were 16 different kinds of decks present and only 5 of them used welder, and only 1 used malamar. That means over 2/3rds of the competitive meta don't use the engines you insist are the only competitively viable ones. And out of the 55 players in day 2 only 21 of them were play decks with Welder in them and only 5 decks with malamar as well. So 53% of the top decks were not play Welder or Malamar.

Just looking at the results you've posted, they don't look healthy at all. It's even more jarring when you check out other tournaments, as you tend to see the same decks with very few flukes. A deck does not have to win every tournament to warp the meta around it, and it's very clear from these deck lists and deck choices that they all pass "the Welder test" and they all have some form energy manipulation - slower than Welder, but fast enough to not fold straight away.
If you look at these results: https://limitlesstcg.com/tournaments/?id=203
You have 5 decks that play Welder, GardeOn decks that accelerate themselves, four decks that are essentially energy-less, two Malamars and three ADPs.

There are "rouge" decks that have favorable match-ups against most of these decks, but they get crushed by the sheer speed of Welder. That's why banning Welder makes so much sense - it's both an objective ban of a powercreeped card and a tactical ban that allows more decks to flourish.

 

[Otaku]

"Cannot play another supporter" applies to Welder as well. Not to mention Welder does have a drawback of being unplayable if you have no fire energy in hand. My point though was that simply saying "Welder is broken because it has no drawback" isn't an actual point.

I wanted to stress this point. The difference is I do think Welder is ultimately unhealthy for the metagame. It isn't fun, but sometimes we make bad arguments for our side of things.

A) Has variety (multiple decks are viable, variation of archetypes, variation in deck building, basically being not stagnant)
B) Allows for player skill to significantly affect the outcome (basically their aren't any deck that auto-win, win completely off of chance, or it's ability to win is completely unaffected by what the opponent does)

I don't think we can ignore how we think the game ought to be, whether as a nigh impossible ideal or plausible ideal, affects how we think it is doing and what we think needs to change or stay the same. It got long even while trying to keep it short, so I'm just using Spoiler Tags for the sake of organization, and so folks can ignore it if they just don't care or think it shouldn't matter.

Spoiler

What do we classify as the metagame? Generally speaking, it is supposed to refer to the "competitive card pool" and/or "competitive deck lists". At least, that is how I understand it. I'll still sometimes slip and use it to refer to the overall game's health as well, though. That includes long term health and not just short term. Two things I'd add to CrownAxe's requirements are:

C) Variety in strategy
D) 2-Player Game
E) Card Pool Utilization
F) No "Rule Patches"

All of these tie into what I think should be the design goal of the PTCG, which could be (and I believe, has been) it's own thread. The short version is yeah, I want to see a variety of decks in the competitive sphere but they better all not play the same. Competitive decks should only result in "Poké-Solitare" as an end state or fringe result. There are way too many examples of useless filler and/or poor card design in sets. Every card enjoying at least a niche use may be asking too much... but I believe we should at least aim for the low threshold of more cards having at least a minor competitive role than not.

If the metagame is only healthy because the core rules of the game have been drastically altered to make it so, that ain't healthy. I'm not against all rule changes, but if they're just there because the powers-that-be screwed up game balance, that's a bad thing and the long term goal should be to fix it.

Examples:

• Professor Juniper/Professor Sycamore: Don't make a special rule about not being able to use both in the same deck, just issue an errata. I'm still hoping the new Professor's Research ultimately results in this.
• No T1 attacks: The problem isn't Player 1 being able to attack, it is what they can gain through attacking. That's a card design/pacing issue.
• No T1 Supporters: The problem isn't Player 1 being able to use a Supporter, but what they can gain through that Supporter usage. That's a card design/pacing issue.
• T1 Evolution Rules: See below
• Balancing going 1st vs 2nd: Revise the rules of Pokémon evolution. Pokémon may only manually evolve if they were in play during your opponent's last turn. This means Player 1 cannot manually evolve anything because even their opening Pokémon couldn't have been in play during the opponent's last turn (because the opponent hasn't had any turns). Player 2 may evolve only Pokémon that were in play before the end of Player 1's first turn. Note that this assumes the designers are abiding with other proposed changes, plus a few I had to leave out. For the sake of argument, assume the powers-that-be are doing their best to not intentionally break anything.

 

[CrownAxe]

@Yaginku It's clear that you have VERY unrealistic expectation of what the game should look like

If you're complaints are "There is a very clear line between what is viable and what isn't" and "it's warping the meta around it" well guess what? That's just how having a meta works. The best decks are always going to affect what decks are viable and force people to build around them to remain competitive. I can't just throw together 60 random cards and expect to be competitively viable. Their is always going to be a line in the sand for how viable a deck has to be to be competitively relevant

You complain about Welder's speed hard limits slower decks? That happens regardless of what deck is the best deck. If the best deck sets up by turn 3 then decks that take longer then that also get shoved out of the metagame. Slow decks that take too long to set up just aren't good and how slow that is is always determined by how fast the best decks are.

The fact that Welder affects the meta at all isn't a problem. It has to be severe to be an issue. So severe that basically you're only choice in deck building is to play Welder or a hard counter to welder. A meta where 80+ percent of decks are welder. The fact that Welder isn't even the majority of the competitive meta means it's not a problem warrant banning

 

[Yaginku]

@Yaginku It's clear that you have VERY unrealistic expectation of what the game should look like

Why would you consider the state of Standard from 2-3 sets ago to be "unrealistic"? It wasn't perfect by any measure, but it was better than it is now.

If you're complaints are "There is a very clear line between what is viable and what isn't" and "it's warping the meta around it" well guess what? That's just how having a meta works.

No it doesn't. It's a common misconception players hold and a common excuse designers give, but it's completely untrue.
Regardless, this is not even a case of a deck warping the meta around itself, it's a single card that creates an atmosphere of "haves" and "have nots", because everything has to be matched against it.

You complain about Welder's speed hard limits slower decks? That happens regardless of what deck is the best deck. If the best deck sets up by turn 3 then decks that take longer then that also get shoved out of the metagame. Slow decks that take too long to set up just aren't good and how slow that is is always determined by how fast the best decks are.

No, it does not. Just a couple of sets ago it was completely normal to have decks with minimal or situational acceleration.
Think of it like this - there are decks with no acceleration, there are decks with balanced acceleration and then there's Welder. Without Welder, the bottom two tiers can battle it out, balancing speed, power and gimmicks. With Welder, the entire bottom falls out, because your one energy going second is facing a six-energy Tag Team on turn two.

The fact that Welder affects the meta at all isn't a problem. It has to be severe to be an issue. So severe that basically you're only choice in deck building is to play Welder or a hard counter to welder.

That's literally what's happening. Just like there's absolutely zero reason to play a (attacking) non-GX Pokemon that isn't Baby Blacephalon, or some other form of scaling damage.

 

[CrownAxe]

The deck that won San Diego regionals doesn't even use energy acceleration except for a single teched beast ring

 

[Wolfe_XD]

Welder itself is not the main problem, it's cards like MewMew and Reshizard that have high energy costs but welder gets around that by attaching 3 energy a turn meaning those decks can swing hard early, but welder also makes stuff like baby blown one of the best non-GX/EX decks we've had in a while (imo) beacuse it can up-trade real nice. Also if you compare this meta to the meta of a year ago its got a lot more general variety, the decks a year ago were pretty much stall/spread of some description, malamar, zoroark and big blowns. Whereas now we've got mally, AbZard, MewMew, stall of some description, ADP, baby blowns, gartina, big blowns, GuzzNaga, PikaRom, LucMetal and Gardeon all viable evough to be played, that's over double what we had a year ago and less than half use Welder. So compared even to some of this years formats we've got a lot of stuff that is "meta" so to speak and even more decent rogue stuff (Tangrowth/Dark Box etc) so the meta is the healthiest it's been for a while imo.

Stuff doesn't need a direct counter to not be broken, just enough stuff that's on a similar level. I've played a lot of base-neo format, cleffa was worse for that format than welder is now.

 

[Otaku]

I've played a lot of base-neo format, cleffa was worse for that format than welder is now.

As a reminder, that isn't exactly a high threshold to clear. It's like hanging out with me and being the charming one.

 

[jamashawalker]

For the record...

Last year's format (SUM-LOT) was an insanely diverse metagame. We can look at cards and build competitively viable decks, without having to worry about consistency nor extremely one sided matchups which require heavy techs just to keep pace. SUM-LOT was a great example of healthy diverse metagame that didn't limit you to playing established decks and rewarded creative deck building.

Edit: I believe we didn't even reach the peak of the SUM-LOT metagame. There's so much left to explore from that metagame before TTGXs appeared

 

[Otaku]

Hmm... maybe it was because I just didn't play it enough, have seen a little too much of the game over the years, or am lacking too much in skill and/or talent but... was it really that much different. @jamashawalker ?

Yes, I really am asking. I know that I do not know. It feels very much the same to me, though the details are clearly different. Personally, I know I've been fooled before into thinking a metagame was much larger and more diverse because I was being a little too generous in where I drew the line for "competitive" cards... or because my preferred cards, decks, and strategies were in ascendance, instead of decline or among those already shut out.

I've also seen folks claim the metagame was less diverse and balanced than it actually was because they hated a particular deck/strategy. *coughNightMarchcough*

 

[Pokeman]

I think I put together a new dominating deck. Anyone that has seen my rogue Glaceon GX/Welder deck, would love this updated deck I’m using, it’s Glaceon GX/Alolan Nintales GX/Luminous Barrier deck. It craps on the current format!

 

[jamashawalker]

I was typing out a lot but it all came out a jumble mess. I'm better at explaining through points of topics lol @Otaku

-Consistency in LOT vs CEC

In today's metagame you're either consistent with search options or you're not. A lot of viable options today aren't even playable due to how they have to rely on Pokémon communication being their only search option. In LOT this was never a problem. It was either you're SUPER consistent or you had the standard amount like everything else.With better ball search+ Lele you never worried about fighting yourself on setting up, opening up alot of room for creativity in your deck.

-Damage output

This is huge. The numbers to hit during LOT was 130 for the non-GXs, 170 for guzma KO Lele FTW, and 210 for Zoroak and other Stage 1 GXs. Going beyond those numbers required a large amount of energy or certain parameters to be met. This was enjoyable because it gave deck building creativity on goals to hit rather than attempting to hit up to 270 in one turn. While there were OHKO style of decks during the LOT meta. The fact that I have to label them as "OHKO style of decks" says a lot about how getting a OHKO meant something in LOT

-Fast but not super fast

The metagame during LOT was fast, but not Turn 1 200 damage fast/turn 2 300 damage fast. Zoroak was the fastest and most consistent because it can swing for 120-160 turn 2. While this is a lot of damage for the metagame back then, it wasn't a game changer(nor uncommon) for Zoroak to take the first KO compared to CEC. Games with Welder based decks can be decided on turn 2 depending on the Match up.


-Viable Stage 2 decks

There are many reasons for their viability during this metagame. Alolan Ninetales GX (LOT) & Meganium made Stage 2s super consistent. Beacon Alolan Vulpix with limited hand disruption meant that it was a great lead to get you set up for the next turn start attacking turn 2. The high HP plus moderately average damage output meant there was more of a reward for getting your stage 2s into play. Even non-GX stage 2s.


-Buffs rather than nerfs

Like all new metagames people welcomed in the new archetypes along with new additions to older decks. Older decks never really got worse nor unplayable. BuzzRoc was still a viable deck to win with. Even Drampa GX+Garbodor trashalance was usable because of the heavy use of items+ DCE in LOT. While we did have a rotation happen in Unified Minds that took away all of the older archetypes completely, nothing was really lost in LOT.


There's alot more to say about the LOT metagame, but there really was ALOT to explore in that metagame. There were top tier decks but nothing was established as being the only viable decks to compete with compared to CEC. Sorry long post, TTGXs really make me appreciate a time without them

 

[Otaku]

Thank you for the list, @jamashawalker. It does help clear things up, but maybe not how you intended.

For some perspective - and I know I bring this up too often - I started playing back in 1999. There are gaps, and I've never been a highly competitive player - tried for a few years - but whether I'm a genius, an idiot, or something in between, I've seen a lot. So... most of your points lack the impact you're expecting because - as I said - its business as usual.

I'm going to try and keep this concise while still being somewhat clear (Merry Christmas ). Because they released in the same month, a comparison of the game through LOT versus the game through CEC seems like it'd be completely straightforward, but it ain't. We're talking a format built around the first two-thirds of a series versus one built around the last two-thirds. Historically, those can feel very different even though - when looking at it years or a decade later - they seem so similar to each other.

 

[rewster1]

Speaking from the point of view of someone who started around the time ULP came out, who mostly tries to make meme decks into playable rogues, and who has no competitive experience...

I get that there are cycles in the game, and I get that what I play is not meta, so I can't say for certain whether the SUM-LOT meta was healthy or diverse. But I do know that the pool of playable cards was much larger and included stage 2s, which outside of Gardy had seen little success beforehand and almost none since, and I also know that it was the most fun format of the limited number I've experienced.
The total number of cards in standard is greater now than it was then, I believe, but I would wager the playable pool is significantly less.

I do expect a jump in size of the playable pool due to search cards coming back and some powerful cards being weakened by V replacing GX. So I am excited by that, but it makes me wish the" between base" set Team Up had better search staples, and makes me hope that the next halfway set does as well, to alleviate the cycle of going from a lot of diversity to so little at rotation.

 

[jamashawalker]

Merry Christmas to you as well @Otaku

So i'm not sure what you are looking for in terms of diversity then? In this CEC metagame we can eliminate a good portion of the cards that are legal for standard. Due their overwhelming bad matchup against the best decks in the format. Not only do they have a bad matchup, it is beyond difficult to set up with them due to the extremely limited amount of pokemon search we have in the format. Inform me on this (I really mean it because idk lol) has there ever been a time you can look at a card and first have to ask before reading it.... "Is it searchable?"
I understand not all cards are meant to played and power creep is a thing. But the power creep during the LOT was nothing compared to the power creep we have in CEC.

I'm beyond excited for SwSh with the new Quick Ball+Evolution incense to come into play. We can look back at the older cards that never got a shot due to consistency issues and see how we can incorporate them into the new format

 

[Otaku]

I want to clear up the confusion, @jamashawalker but I also want to keep things concise. That ain't happening, but now things will be... messy. >.>

To accurately diagnose the current Standard Format, you have to understand that this game has never been properly balanced. Always remember that every Pokémon is someone's favorite, that most folks actually like several Pokémon, and that some folks want as many options as possible. Put all that together, and no single aspect of a Pokémon should be an automatic (or probable) qualifier/disqualifier. Meaning it isn't good when any Stage, Type, strategy, win condition, etc. is disproportionately dominant. Ideally, it would be perfectly balanced, but that ain't happening, so I'll settle for things being closer. Also, the rules need to be streamlined. When something is only "balanced" because the powers-that-be introduced a special rule, s'good sign it isn't actually balanced e.g. No T1 Supporter, no T1 attack, etc.

I'm also warning about viewing recent Formats as if they were all that great... because in the grand scheme of things, they most likely weren't. Most likely? With respect to SUM - LOT, dudes, the body's still warm; eventually, we'll hit that sweet spot where long enough has passed to offer perspective, but not so long that memories and information sources have become unclear. This is especially true if things in a person's life may have changed; for years, I remembered the mid-2000's as better than they were. Why? That was when I had the most time, money, and friends to play.

Addressing some specific questions/comments, though:

In this CEC metagame we can eliminate a good portion of the cards that are legal for standard. Due their overwhelming bad matchup against the best decks in the format.

I don't like it, but this is normal. I think you may be recalling the past Format as more diverse than it was, or else, cherry-picking that moment when it was at its best. Intentionally doing so? No; you're going to approximately the same time in the previous Format as we are in the current one... but Standard Formats aren't always at their best at the same point.

Not only do they have a bad matchup, it is beyond difficult to set up with them due to the extremely limited amount of pokemon search we have in the format. Inform me on this (I really mean it because idk lol) has there ever been a time you can look at a card and first have to ask before reading it.... "Is it searchable?"

There were times when that wasn't a question because all available Pokémon search was far worse than what we have now. There are a lot of times when it has been better. I'm not sure if there have been a lot of times when it has been well-balanced, though. Y'see, when you have universal Pokémon search like Ultra Ball, that makes it far easier for cards to become generic deck staples. You'd think a rising tide lifts all boats, but it actually enables the best to be used in everything.

Plus, the search we do have is inadequate because of the other issues with the game.

I'm beyond excited for SwSh with the new Quick Ball+Evolution incense to come into play. We can look back at the older cards that never got a shot due to consistency issues and see how we can incorporate them into the new format

True but remember they'll still have to compete with everything we already had plus the new stuff in Sword & Shield. As or more important is the new T1 rule about no Supporters. I don't like it, because the problem is certain T1 Supporters and Pokémon. Which I think the designers were more than a little foolish to create and release in the first place.