Which of the two, in the times you have witnessed them being played/played them yourself, provided the best support in the metas they were released in? Tapu Lele since it came out? Or Shaymin in his heyday? Would love to hear thoughts on this...
Discussion Shaymin vs Lele (Battle of the supports)
- Thread starter ShuffleMcDeck
- Start date
Since Shaymin was/is spammable I think the obvious answer is Shaymin.
I had a good time using Jirachi-EX at Dallas Regionals. Level Ball searchability is BIG.
That said, that stupid thing is such a donk liability
That said, that stupid thing is such a donk liability
Jirachi over Lele? What deck were you playing I'm genuinely interested..
"Bootleg" Shock Lock
In a deck that uses a lot of Level Ball, Jirachi-EX is super preferred
Currently, in Expanded format games, one has the option of using either and/or both. I'm also a player who WILL abuse opponents' benching multiple Shaymin EXs... Both serve useful purposes; however, one also needs to be mindful of the risks associated with each of these Pokémon. IMO, Shaymin EX bears more inherent risks (e.g., lower HP and Weakness), but it also has 1 significant advantage with its supplemental card-draw Ability and its attack which can inflict some minor damage, BUT it gets taken back into one's hand - thus removing it from harm's way.
I find Tapu Lele GX to be more versatile and useful to me - whether playing Expanded or not. Having a Supporter search and find Ability, no Weakness, 170 HP, and an X-Ball like main attack has proven to be outstanding. In addition, its little, but CLUTCH GX attack has helped me win games.
I find Tapu Lele GX to be more versatile and useful to me - whether playing Expanded or not. Having a Supporter search and find Ability, no Weakness, 170 HP, and an X-Ball like main attack has proven to be outstanding. In addition, its little, but CLUTCH GX attack has helped me win games.
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Shaymin-EX's attack bounces it and all cards attached to it back to your hand. As for my take, and yeah it will challenge some of what @TuxedoBlack said (we may simply have different experiences):
When it comes to Tapu Lele-GX versus Shaymin-EX (ROS), I've got to go with the latter. Both cards exist in metagames where they are combined with additional cards to provide supplemental draw power, Supporter search, and Supporter recycling, which helps us avoid being dependent on Supporters for just big draw (or whatever Supporter-effect would prove most important). Which is why this is actually a good topic to discuss.
Both cards are juicy Bench-sitters. Shaymin-EX is obviously much more vulnerable to being easily KO'd in terms of HP but what happens when we stop doing head-to-head comparisons of them and look at them from equivalent positions within their personal lifespans? The 110HP on Shaymin-EX is still more vulnerable than the 170 HP of Tapu Lele-GX but Shaymin-EX went from being a probable OHKO to highly probable OHKO, while Shaymin-EX went from being a solid back-up beatstick to a somewhat probable OHKO. Making good use of multiple instances of Shaymin-EX's "Set Up" Ability seems much easier than doing the same with Tapu Lele-GX's "Wonder Tag".
We haven't had to change how we play Shaymin-EX, because we already knew we had to bounce it, discard it, or provide something that just couldn't be ignored if it was to survive. Tapu Lele-GX, on the other hand, has gone from something that could look after itself to something that needs extra attention. This is because damage output and HP scores on average have inflated. I don't mean the newest highs due to Tag Team-GX cards, though they'll likely push it further; just the shift from EX to GX seems to have caused enough of an increase in typical HP scores and damage output that 170 HP now is more like 150 to 160 HP back in the day.
Both cards actually have useful attacks; Shaymin-EX being able to bounce itself and all cards attached with "Sky Return" not only made it easier to reuse its Ability but also preserve those cards from having to shuffle them away or discard them before drawing. Tapu Lele-GX can punish Energy hogs with "Energy Drive", though it is more likely to finish off (or setup) a 2HKO, and even then, just because it is available (as opposed to being really good at it). "Tapu Cure-GX" is very niche since it requires [P] and having at least one injured Pokémon worth using your GX-attack to heal.
I've already made a lot more use of Shaymin-EX's Sky Return than Energy Drive and Tapu Cure-GX. It's the older card I've been using longer, though, so that isn't too strong of a statement.
Energy Drive degrading as fast as it has in terms of usefulness, and Tapu Cure-GX is too niche for its own good. Sometimes an opponent has a spread deck and its a lifesaver, but you still need the deck to run [P], while both Sky Return and Energy Drive benefit from how many decks run on DCE or a compatible form of Energy acceleration. Which reminded me of something else; when Tapu Cure-GX gets niche usage, its combating spread. When Sky Return finds its groove, it is was in frustrating [F] decks, Seismitoad-EX control decks, or even Night March decks. Bounce (in one case, plus [F] Resistance) could be surprisingly useful stall against those decks. With Night March, you could OHKO a Joltik (PHF) or (later on) Mew (FCO), though the latter required a Muscle Band as well.So... yeah. Maybe I'm tripping over my own thought process, but I'd say Shaymin-EX is the ultimate winner. Now, we'll have to see if Dedenne-GX truly is a nerfed Shaymin-EX or not.
Also, the questions was "in the metas they were released in" - considering Shaymin came "bundled" with M-Ray I think Shaymin is the clear winner here. And apart from that it was still used in many decks that wanted to dig deep into their cards asap. Obviously Lele was also impactful in the meta it was released in, and nowadays it's usually a no brainer to use both in Expanded in decks that need a fast setup, but if we take a look at their overall "career" Shaymin provided more support than Lele, simply because 9.9 times out of 10 it's pointless to play more than 1 Lele on the same turn whereas theoretically you were able to play 4 Shaymins in a single turn and if you were lucky you didn't even get punished for it that much.
shaymin of course
its spammable so you can spam
but dont eat spam unless its in a spam musubi
its spammable so you can spam
but dont eat spam unless its in a spam musubi