Discussion North American Internationals Winning Deck : Drampa -GX / Garbodor

[Giufla91]

I've just seen the list on many channels of youtube, and all are saying "the best deck here" "the best deck there" and so on. Many have talked about a brainless deck, but I have a total different thought about it.

Obviously I know how powerful garb can be, in all of his variants, and I am well aware about his sinergy with drampa gx.

The dragon can put a lot of pressure on the opponent that is bound to set up faster (read: use more trainer), and then garbodor is a one prize atatcker that can finish the job

But onestly, I think that winning at an event such as the North american internationals with a deck that contains just garb and drampa and not any particular tech, also including FOUR tapu lele (I don't know how many decks have enough room for that)....anyway my point is

Tord Reklev is being understimated IMO, even if is a concept deck that we already saw a thousand of times, he played it very well in order to win a tournament where I am assuming that every single player tested against (or mirror ) with garbordor


So I wanted to know if anyone have the same thought or other opinions

I'll just leave here the link with the top8 deck directly from the pokemon site

http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/internationals/2017/north-america/tcg-masters/

 

[HouchinsDJ]

While the concept for the deck isn't new, I think Tord played it very intelligently and he did some things that most players wouldn't think of doing, such as playing four Tapu Lele. I think those four Lele made all the difference and greatly increased the deck's consistency to get key Supporter cards when they were needed.

 

[Giufla91]

Also taking a close look at the other top8 decks I am very happy to see a volcanion, but also a couple of decidueye that make me think that players have preferred to play decks they have experienced a lot than a last minute idea or more recent ideas like zoroark or metagross gx., that are worthy decks of course, but they haven't the same kilometeres that other archetypes have

 

[uncleyuri]

Yeah from hearing some of the top players discuss their deck choices for this, a common theme was going with decks they were most familiar with. With a Tournament this size it was all about consistency and familiarity over newer decks that could've been good meta calls.

 

[Zeno]

While the concept for the deck isn't new, I think Tord played it very intelligently and he did some things that most players wouldn't think of doing, such as playing four Tapu Lele. I think those four Lele made all the difference and greatly increased the deck's consistency to get key Supporter cards when they were needed.

We even saw at the end of their second game that Tord took the victory because being smart with his use of Lele. That fourth Lele gave him the Lysandre to guarantee his victory. He's a very intelligent player.

 

[Otaku]

You don't win this large of an event without being a skilled player, even if someone builds the best possible list for the event's metagame. Did Tord craft his list by himself? As long as he at least helped, that is majorly impressive and significantly skillful. If he didn't, Tord doesn't lose Skill points, he just reallocates them; learning to run a deck you did not build well enough to win such a large event is still a great accomplishment.

 

[MewsGame]

Well you said there are no techs, but arguably running 2 extra Lele is like a tech in and of itself. Just as other people said, specifically Otaku, you don't just win a tournament with over 1000 players by having the best decklist. It takes skill, knowledge, and a little bit of luck to get as far as Tord did. However, I wouldn't say that his deck is the best deck necessarily, and I think playing that exact list may not be "the play" for worlds. Tord jokingly said in the after-game interview that he is using the same deck for worlds, but I think that's a mistake if he was serious. Burning Shadows, and the decks that it introduces, shouldn't be slept on, but rather researched and tested because any deck stemming from the set directly will be a huge surprise to your opponent because there will be no tournaments to test Burning Shadows cards/decks before worlds. So basically I'm just saying that I think the deck will see future success, and Tord definitely will, but I doubt it'll steal another 1st place any time soon.

 

[Giufla91]

You don't win this large of an event without being a skilled player

Just as other people said, specifically Otaku, you don't just win a tournament with over 1000 players by having the best decklist.

that's my exact opinion, I've just noticed, sadly, that many pointed at him as a user of a brainless deck! I am glad to see that here on PB the things are different.

 

[Otaku]

that's my exact opinion, I've just noticed, sadly, that many pointed at him as a user of a brainless deck! I am glad to see that here on PB the things are different.

Sour grapes from people who don't or don't want to know better.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I consider Garbodor a brainless deck that someone can get good with. You can still do well with these decks since the skill required is entry level to the game. It's like losing to a new player using a Vileplume deck. The reason people don't like the deck is because it doesn't let people play the game while the Garbodor player can do what it wants, while having a standard Item heavy build. It's very hard to play against in a game that demands near perfect opening hands.

What I have noticed is players are opting to use more item heavy decks again and in a tournament demanding consistency, playing Garbodor the way he did was a great meta call considering people felt Garbodor was dying. At the end of the day, a ton of decks have a much lower skill entry required and while I consider Garbodor to be brainless, simply not respecting its existence is asking to lose. If Vespiquen is big in your area and you play Vespiquen and lose to a guy running one or two Oricorio, the guy playing the card isn't playing a brainless deck, he just made a good meta call and I do consider adding a Oricorio brainless I guess because it's just common sense at that point.

 

[Blah]

There's rarely such a thing as a completely brainless deck. Keep in mind that many crucial decisions may not be instantly apparent during gameplay--just deciding what to discard with an Ultra Ball can be the difference between winning and losing. Is it as complex as something like Zoroark, where you have like 5 different attackers that you are constantly switching between with varying damage outputs? No, but the mere existence of consistent winners within the game (Tord being one of them) should be enough evidence that Pokémon is very much skill-based. Many of the important decisions in a deck like Drampa/Garb, like I mentioned, are just less noticeable than in a more complex deck.

 

[DragonFang101]

Well you said there are no techs, but arguably running 2 extra Lele is like a tech in and of itself. Just as other people said, specifically Otaku, you don't just win a tournament with over 1000 players by having the best decklist. It takes skill, knowledge, and a little bit of luck to get as far as Tord did. However, I wouldn't say that his deck is the best deck necessarily, and I think playing that exact list may not be "the play" for worlds. Tord jokingly said in the after-game interview that he is using the same deck for worlds, but I think that's a mistake if he was serious. Burning Shadows, and the decks that it introduces, shouldn't be slept on, but rather researched and tested because any deck stemming from the set directly will be a huge surprise to your opponent because there will be no tournaments to test Burning Shadows cards/decks before worlds. So basically I'm just saying that I think the deck will see future success, and Tord definitely will, but I doubt it'll steal another 1st place any time soon.

I totally agree with that. I mean, Gyarados is winning 1st in every event I've seen recently, but when was the last time you heard other people talking about it like it was public enemy no.1? Mneh!

 

[Otaku]

I consider Garbodor a brainless deck that someone can get good with. You can still do well with these decks since the skill required is entry level to the game.

This should not be confused with

The reason people don't like the deck is because it doesn't let people play the game while the Garbodor player can do what it wants, while having a standard Item heavy build. It's very hard to play against in a game that demands near perfect opening hands.

crystal_pidgeot did a good job by prefacing the first statement with "I consider..." because this is an opinion, not fact. I know he doesn't mean "brainless" literally, but we can have an entire debate on the different skills required for different decks. I know, because I'm pretty sure I've been involved in several such debates over the last 18 years of playing. XD The rest of crystal_pidgeot's post explains his position well, so apart from me thinking "brainless" is the wrong descriptor, not just because it sounds like an attempt at picking a fight but because even allowing for hyperbole, it just is not the right word, I won't worry about quoting it.

What I will bring up is this well-known article here, because being well-known isn't the same as being universally known. The TL;DR version of the article is that TCG players tend to fall into one of three broad categories, based on how each enjoys Magic: The Gathering. We aren't playing MtG but the basic principle seems to translate to most TCGs, with Pokémon being no exception; you just need to adjust for the specific differences. Players can also be more than one psychographic as well. Timmy is about hitting big numbers, Johnny is about big combos, and Spikes are about big wins (this is an oversimplification - read the article for the real deal). Later, another article adds two aestheticprofiles, Vorthos and Mel. I find the names a little less natural than the other two, but for now, I'll stick with them. They are also not mutually exclsuive, because they deal with appreciating different aspects of the game: Vorthos the "flavor" and Mel the mechanics. Vorthos loves when a card's name, art, and Pokédex entry (if there is one) all mesh with the actual card Type, sub-Type(s), cost(s), and effect(s). Mel loves when cards execute game mechanics in an interesting way. Again, the article does a better job of explaining it, as do other things you can find by doing a simple internet search

Relevance to this discussion? What you appreciate about the game will influence what you see as "skill". I used to hate Spikes because I didn't give them full credit; I thought of them as people who just wanted to win Prizes or get a simple thrill from winning. Such people exist, and maybe "Spike" is the best way to classify them but they aren't a major facet of long-term TCG play. If you don't enjoy something about the TCG you're playing, it just won't be worth the effort it will take for even a natural talent to remain competitive for long. Garbodor does not lock down an opponent's Items, it gives you a choice. It does have to consider its own Item usage in the mirror match, because how often is it being run on its own? As it is a Psychic Weak, Psychic-Type it doesn't have much hope of not being within OHKO range of Trashalanche but its partner Pokémon do. You have to know how to pace yourself, because early game Trashalanche is probably not hitting hard. Drampa-GX needs to be discarding an opponent's Special Energy or feeding off of something injured on your Bench, and while it is a great partner for Garbodor, managing these things properly still requires a significant amount of skill.

Poo-pooing it reminds me too much of when Night March was the favored scapegoat. People ignored that Evolving Basic Pokémon were more than just filler! I mean, wow is that a rare thing! What is more, they were the main or co-main attackers! The deck was fast, had an obvious strategy but both playing and facing it, I can tell you the deck was anything but brainless. So many times being brainless meant your Night March deck lost.

 

[cardgjammer]

I wonder if Espeon-EX(not in 2nd place deck) could've ko' d the garbs sooner than if they stayed evolved? I mean, 120 Hit Points vs. 70? If that could've resulted in a different ending in favor of Kettler due to devolution back to Trubbish, then I say overlooking Miraculous shine(?) by excluding it from his 60 card deck cost him in the end...

^ Anyway, four tap leles(GXes) on winner's list? Guess he spent money to make money in the form of trophies and other prizes. lele is like, 30 dollars in price per lele? You know what Vegas says: "You gotta bet money to make money...", or in this case, pay money...

 

[Rindon]

You don't win this large of an event without being a skilled player, even if someone builds the best possible list for the event's. Did Tord craft his list by himself? As long as he at least helped, that is majorly impressive and significantly skillful. If he didn't, Tord doesn't lose Skill points, he just reallocates them; learning to run a deck you did not build well enough to win such a large event is still a great accomplishment.

Have to agree, skill is absolutely necessary, regardless of deck played, to win competitively.

Being an amateur player and playing virtually all games online with the exception of the pre-release tournaments, I have only just begun to appreciate the skill needed to play at a highly competitive level. Watching some of the championship games online and then even playing in the pokebeach tournaments I have gotten a real appreciation for how players play in different situations.

Even something as simple as a recent article posted by Jay Lesage about micro decisions and when to play trainer mail vs max elixir to maximize your odds for what you are looking for. Although I understand the principle and the probability of how you would play these cards I had never really thought of this until I read it.

However in addition to skill, luck in cards drawn as well as the deck you draw against is also crucial. I don't know how many times I have been at the end of a game and basically need one card to win, but that card doesn't come.

 

[vnguyen188]

I've noticed that the top players are very good at making quick decisions and good at recognizing what the opponents are going to play at every tournament. They also need to be able to quickly identify which cards are prized in their deck in order to come up with a game plan for each game.