Non-EX Mega Evolution

[fleshrum]

Is a non-EX mega evolution mechanically possible? Can you simply change the name to M.Venusaur and the byline to "evolves from Venusaur," or is something else required?

Spoiler: My line of thinking:

Since Mega evolution bled from gen6 into mainseries remakes, it isn't likely to disappear. The above template is similar to Lv. X. and ex mechanics, ex territory moreso, since evolution [and not levelling up] should be [imo] key to how this game functions.
The biggest obstacle I see is that decks with evolution are barely keeping up with big basics as is [setting aside the argument against calling a stage 2 Pokémon a "big basic..." fnar-fnar power creep etc]

Follow-up question for discussion: do you think it will ever be done, why, and if not in this manner how?

 

[GadgetJax]

First question: All Mega Evolutions so far specify that they must be evolved from the EX from the same set. Look at the evolution rules on the top-left for reference:

Spoiler: big

Question 2: I'm not sure. This is the second era in a row to feature EX's and the third era so far to feature EX's, so it seems like Megas will be EX's until EX's stop being printed, and considering that EX merchandise sell like hotcakes, I don't think the Pokemon Company is going to stop this anytime soon.

 

[thegrovylekid]

First question: All Mega Evolutions so far specify that they must be evolved from the EX from the same set. Look at the evolution rules on the top-left for reference:

Spoiler: big

Question 2: I'm not sure. This is the second era in a row to feature EX's and the third era so far to feature EX's, so it seems like Megas will be EX's until EX's stop being printed, and considering that EX merchandise sell like hotcakes, I don't think the Pokemon Company is going to stop this anytime soon.

Yeah, it does. Because it doesn't matter if they're bad for the game, right?

 

[GadgetJax]

Yeah, it does. Because it doesn't matter if they're bad for the game, right?

I don't think EX's themselves are broken, but there are too many EX's that are printed that abuse their status as Basics. Seismitoad-EX, Landorus-EX, Latios-EX, and M. Rayquaza-EX are the kinds of things that I would consider bad for the format. Seriously, at least things like Genesect-EX and Dialga-EX are balanced because they take time to set up.

 

[TokenDuelist]

Question 2: I'm not sure. This is the second era in a row to feature EX's and the third era so far to feature EX's, so it seems like Megas will be EX's until EX's stop being printed, and considering that EX merchandise sell like hotcakes, I don't think the Pokemon Company is going to stop this anytime soon.

The worst part about this is that they will keep pumping out EX Merchandise and not slip them in English variants of Gym Packs (League could use them... prize support is lacking and this game is more money driven than ever lately). As long as kids see EX Pokemon as their only hope for being better at the game, they won't stop throwing their allowance or parent's money at something they assume is their best option.

Heck at our League there was one kid foolishly trying to make friends by trading off most of his cards because he thought all he needed were EX Pokemon. It's getting very out of hand and I honestly wish they would do something to make more cards playable in this game. It feels pointless investing money into it now.

More on the subject, I WANT to see non-EX Megas that are essentially Lv.X cards. I want to see Lv.X happen again, especially considering the new Gardevoir card art features a mega stone on it.

 

[Otaku]

Ideally we... could just get rid of Mega Evolutions.

This is completely unrealistic of course and if the emoticon wasn't enough to indicate that... well I just said it plainly. I do regret the game going this direction, but its here. So onto the more topic relevant idea that Mega Evolutions could be shifted to something different, I don't exactly miss the Level Up mechanic either. I am loathe to propose a fix because frankly, this is a mess.

What I will do is affirm this

I don't think EX's themselves are broken, but there are too many EX's that are printed that abuse their status as Basics.

and expand it to reflect that right now, the designers have taken a "Yu-Gi-Oh" style approach of more power, more speed, more bling and less of what I would describe as "balance". Pokémon-EX aren't the only ones that are two fast: before Pokémon-EX were a problem, we had big, Basics in general being a problem. Before that it was Stage 1 Pokémon with one or two "weird" Stage 2 decks in between that were insanely potent. In fact, I'm not really describing different periods for the most part: it was just a strange time as the HS sets gave way to the BW-era sets.

I think the reasonable approach to this game is, since there are so many Pokémon and everyone has different favorites, the-powers-that-be need to at least try to keep the game from favoring any particular Type or Stage. With regard to the latter, that means recognizing the inherent differences between Stages and adjusting them so that Evolution lines are a "package deal": the raw numbers on "end Stages" should be similar because we've tried tweaking things like HP or damage output to balance non-Evolving Basics with non-Evolving Stage 1 Pokémon with Stage 2 Pokémon and it never really worked. Instead the balance comes from making lower Stages have a purpose beyond being place holders and pacing big, Basic Pokémon so that they can't be both the "fast" attacker and the "big" attacker. Damaging (as opposed to attacks that aid in set-up) shouldn't be an option for the first turn of the game, but instead of a clunky rule that needs to be a design principle. This gives time for set-up and if we start combining these principles, we get big, Basics that have to sit their idle before they can start taking KOs or else run another Pokémon to aide in set-up (decreasing their card count advantage).

 

[fleshrum]

First question: All Mega Evolutions so far specify that they must be evolved from the EX from the same set.

I know that. I was asking if that is the only mechanical limitation. There is nothing stopping a Mega-evolution card from existing without the two instances of "EX" in the title and by-line, other than precedent. Am I right? I'm genuinely curious.

I HATE the relative power level of these big non-basic basics, but I think it comes down to bad conveyance more than a power level thing. Why is this Pokémon special? Did I train it? If so, when, since my opponent seems to be desperately trying to catch up by giving his mudkip rare candies right now. Why is my opponent even bothering to bring not-fully-evolved Pokémon to a fight? What does EX stand for? ... While I actively use EXs to play I think they should be limited to legendary and mythical Pokémon and/or limit their use to a different format of play. You have no idea how much mileage my friends and I get from EX-less play.

Damaging (as opposed to attacks that aid in set-up) shouldn't be an option for the first turn of the game, but instead of a clunky rule that needs to be a design principle. This gives time for set-up and if we start combining these principles, we get big, Basics that have to sit their idle before they can start taking KOs or else run another Pokémon to aide in set-up (decreasing their card count advantage).

Well said.
I can't for the life of me think of an organic way to make Geomancy usable on the first turn but Quacklin' Punch not, except with a rule change. Even then:
"Damage cannot be dealt on turn 1"? Seismitoad still locks items.
"You can't use attacks that damage an opponent on turn 1"??
You've piqued my interest.

 

[Otaku]

Well said.
I can't for the life of me think of an organic way to make Geomancy usable on the first turn but Quacklin' Punch not, except with a rule change. Even then:
"Damage cannot be dealt on turn 1"? Seismitoad still locks items.
"You can't use attacks that damage an opponent on turn 1"??
You've piqued my interest.

Glad you enjoyed the comment. The thing is that there is no good way to solve this problems via "rule change".

What can help is to adjust design principles and apply them for a few years, then with one last deep rotation say two years out we can get to a place of "balanced" opening attacks. My current hypothesis (and it is just that - I lack a means of comprehensive testing) is that the goal of "streamlining" the first turn rules is a good one. Combining this my my approach for balancing the game follows the KISS principle (keep is super simple). So I suggest

• No special first turn rules
• No cards would be in the card pool that had an attack that could lead to a KO on a player's first turn; if it can be in play first turn its attacks should be restricted "set-up", at least until after a stable format is achieved and sustained for a few years.
• Ditch Energy acceleration that can be accessed on a player's first turn (either players' first turn).
• Ditch Evolution acceleration that can be accessed on a player's first turn (either players' first turn).
• Balancing out going first would be how we streamline the Evolution rules. Instead of what it is, it would become "A Pokémon may manually Evolve if it was in play during your opponent's last turn." This helps with flavor (said Pokémon "experienced" that last turn) and it means that the player going second could Evolve immediately, but the player going first could not. Player 2's Pokémon that were played during set-up or somehow during Player 1's turn could Evolve on the second overall turn of the game (Player 2's first turn). Player 1's Pokémon put into play during set-up however could not have been in play during Player 2's prior turn because Player 2 has had no prior turn. This is something I am least attached to; I only include it because...
• ...if the preceding is used, it would mean Stage 1 attacks and Abilities would follow the above guidelines: no hitting for damage with an attack that can be powered up on T2 (Player 2's first turn).
• This goes hand-in-hand with the suggestion that Evolving Pokémon (Basic, Stage 1 or any other mechanics that might come up) be more than stepping stones. Evolving Basics should contribute to set-up, saving the deck from having to run extra or giving it a very reliable open. Evolving Stage 1 cards may have set-up effects, function as opening/closing/emergency attackers, or could have Abilities that offset the additional space they require. If your transitional Stage 1 includes a Trainer like effect, it helps to balance out the extra time and space of running a Stage 2.
• Fully Evolved Pokémon should be on par with each other in a given niche, even if they are different Stages. Your Stage 2 attacker is not going to be sturdier than the equivalent Stage 1 or big, non-Evolving Basic attacker; the balance comes from the big, Basic just having to sit there for a few turns powering up and doing little to nothing while the Evolving Basic and Stage 1 aid in setting up the Stage 2 deck. So to have as good a set-up, the big Basic will need to dedicate those slots to additional set-up cards, be they other Pokémon, Trainers or Energy.
• Effects would remember something that cannot be otherwise balanced out; pacing and ease of access. An effect may be reserved for a Stage 1 or a Stage 2 because if it were available any sooner, it would violate some of the above guidelines. For example, Ability based Energy acceleration restricted to a Stage 2 can't be accessed on either player's first turn, so it would be plausible on a Stage 2. An attacker that is easy to splash into off-type decks might be a risk as a Basic, where a single one could be added to abuse the Weakness system (if the current one remains in effect) but it is harder when it is a Stage 1 or Stage 2.
• I really would like to do away with Weakness/Resistance entirely or else stream line it to a standard amount that is additive, not multiplicative. Just throwing numbers out there as an example, but a flat +20 damage for Weakness like the -20 for Resistance.

This may sound really complex, but remember that it is all on the game's designers. Players just need to play and love the game.

Now, it seems like Pokémon-EX and Mega Evolutions are unlikely to go away. If it proves to be the best option, I would like Mega Evolutions to exist that are not also Pokémon-EX, but that is because Pokémon-EX should not be anything that is not a "Legendary" (or similarly rare) Pokémon. The Pokémon-EX mechanic is perfect for this as they can have superior attributes and effects (appropriate to their video game counterparts) but are balanced out by being worth an additional Prize. The earlier guidelines adjust slightly, but they are not to be like the successful ones now that can (for example) easily attack on a player's first turn and for a KO (at least when they are allowed to attack).

 

[fleshrum]

This

The earlier guidelines adjust slightly, but they are not to be like the successful ones now that can (for example) easily attack on a player's first turn and for a KO (at least when they are allowed to attack).

hurts this

This may sound really complex, but remember that it is all on the game's designers. Players just need to play and love the game.

and vice versa as long as the game continues to sell at a profitable rate.
I think the changes you proposed could work if implemented correctly. I also think the EX designation should be limited to legendary/mythical. An investor may not see it as such, nor may a highly competitive player, as it risks changing the core gameplay that currently sells into something that does not.

More on the subject, I WANT to see non-EX Megas that are essentially Lv.X cards. I want to see Lv.X happen again, especially considering the new Gardevoir card art features a mega stone on it.

Here's hoping.

 

[Pikachu6319]

Before we actually saw what they were doing, there were several different ways to handle this.

Just a general note, regardless of what were to happen I think automatically ending the turn after mega evolving bar a spirit link card (which won't even be as viable soon when item lock Vileplume returns ).

First being just regular evolution cards. The problem here is any semi competitive player will say how difficult it is to run decks with evolutions in the current or recent formats. This seems to be true (not competitive here mind you) to the best of my observation.

Second would have been the Lv. X mechanic. To me this would have been the best solution as far as I'm concerned. To me it captures the flavor of what it was in the anime without the turn ending restriction. Not that EX to an extent doesn't but it just seems to be that would have been the better route.

Third option was the one they chose. Use EX Pokémon. I too think that EX Pokémon should be reserved for special Pokémon and not Pokémon like Beedrill and Lopunny or like the eventual Sableye and Audino, who are basics but would most likely never get an EX card if not for mega evolution.

Really I think it's not so much that EX Pokémon like Charizard EX exist in the first place, it's the fact that since the reintroduction of EX Pokémon during the BW era they have all been basics, even if they shouldn't have been. If they had taken the same approach they did during the original (RSE) EX era and made them what they were (ie stage 1 or stage 2) they would be less annoying...but that takes us back to my first point about evolution in the format(s).

As it stands though I don't see how anything can really change. The only thing they could do is stop making mega Pokémon until the current format rotates out and then go with the theoretical new mechanic. And that won't happen. Combine it with the fact that EX stuff sells; both to the younger players who will pretty much do whatever they can to get any of that stuff and to the players that can afford and are willing to spend to get the stuff.

 

[Otaku]

Really I think it's not so much that EX Pokémon like Charizard EX exist in the first place, it's the fact that since the reintroduction of EX Pokémon during the BW era they have all been basics, even if they shouldn't have been. If they had taken the same approach they did during the original (RSE) EX era and made them what they were (ie stage 1 or stage 2) they would be less annoying...but that takes us back to my first point about evolution in the format(s).

I was around for the original Pokémon-EX. Having Pokémon-ex as Evolutions was as annoying as having them as Basics. Perhaps worse; the designers tried to balance out the Stages at the time by giving better attributes (such as HP) or effects (attacks or Poké-Bodies/Poké-Powers) to Evolutions, but instead of balance it just made being a non-Evolving Basic a dead end.

As it stands though I don't see how anything can really change. The only thing they could do is stop making mega Pokémon until the current format rotates out and then go with the theoretical new mechanic. And that won't happen. Combine it with the fact that EX stuff sells; both to the younger players who will pretty much do whatever they can to get any of that stuff and to the players that can afford and are willing to spend to get the stuff.

I have considered this and the problem isn't the existence of Mega Evolutions, the problem is how fast and strong they have made them. While again not easy, I propose raising HP scores while damage output remains the same or (preferably) drops a little. This would create sets that could still compete with what is current (because I am talking significantly higher HP scores, also preferably going back to +X for Weakness). Eventually our contemporary cards would rotate out. This ties into my earlier suggested guidelines.

...and vice versa as long as the game continues to sell at a profitable rate.
I think the changes you proposed could work if implemented correctly. I also think the EX designation should be limited to legendary/mythical. An investor may not see it as such, nor may a highly competitive player, as it risks changing the core gameplay that currently sells into something that does not.

As a reminder, if this TCG was purely about profits and short term thinking, the TCG would be dumped on the market a la the Digimon TCGs and others. The powers-that-be would have to periodically "reset" because kids would get tired, it would stop selling so distributors would stop buying, but you save on costs for Organized Play, Research & Development, etc. Having the kind of Organized Play that we enjoy seems to stabilize the game and keep it chugging along (in the U.S. the Pokémon TCG made its full debut in 1999, over 16 years ago!).

It is important to remember as well that while normally the largest target demographic would dictate the direction of the product, there are special circumstances here. Most people that buy Pokémon TCG boosters appear to be those just getting it as a (comparatively) inexpensive Pokémon product: they neither play nor collect in the proper sense. Actual collectors do need to be considered, but in the end it is the card game player who has needs that can be meet without alienating the other two groups; in fact largely without affecting them. So for maximum profit yield while maintaining a product they can be proud of with a self-sustaining customer base, there is a legitimate argument for making this the best game it can be, where people can enjoy using any of their favorites in at least somewhat competitive play.

Player turnover is a huge thing; plenty of people that played it as tweens and teens now are having kids that began playing. Here is the thing; a lot of people left because the game has been in decline for the reasons I mentioned. Not the only reason people leave, but one the-powers-that-be can control. I've gone from a fanboy that would semi-regularly explain how the Pokémon TCG was a great hobby that can teach kids how to trade, a little business sense and give them a shot at winning scholarships via competitive play (on top of being a fun, family hobby) to discouraging people from pursuing it. If things keep up, I may have to actively warn people away as this game has gone disturbing places lately. More and more the designers seem to be pushing to make this game about one-sided dominance, not a back-and-forth duel.

 

[fleshrum]

Just a general note, regardless of what were to happen I think automatically ending the turn after mega evolving bar a spirit link card (which won't even be as viable soon when item lock Vileplume returns ).

Is this missing a line? The suspense is killing me.

 

[Pikachu6319]

fleshrum; Yeah, I think I forgot to add in something there. It was late by the time I posted my opinion of it. I was going to say though, and I've said it before, that a player's turn automatically ending after mega evolving (bar the effects of spirit link cards) was a bad idea.

First off, it detracts from how It works in the video game. Yes there is no reason for it to work the exact same way but if the rule didn't exist we wouldn't need spirit cards in the first place. It also makes playing the mega evolutions difficult which I kind of dislike. I mean if one is going to go through the effort might as well not have to 'pay' an extra penalty. They already did a huge disservice (at least in my mind) by making the evolved forms basics so why make an issue of 'evolving' now? A player also to have them at the right moment and hope nothing like item lock Vileplume is out.

Second, not every Pokémon has that advantage. Blastoise, Venusaur, Kangaskhan, both Charizards, Lucario, Heracross, Diancie, and Absol are currently Pokémon that can mega evolve but have no way to get around the mega evolution rule in the first place because they don't have spirit links. If they're going to do something like this they should make it an option for all mega evolutions and so far we've seen no evidence that they're ever going to close these broken links.

Otaku, personally I think raising HP numbers and going to the +X (I think the numbers climbed by 10 for each stage, should that make a mega +40 weakness?) for resistance instead of just double automatically might very well help things out. I know that other players would disagree. They like the idea of fast games where one or two attacks can take out a Pokémon instead of having to chip away for turns on end just to knock out one Pokémon, hence drawing the game out longer.

It seems to me that to many players it has to be get in, win quick, and get out. It's that way with Yugioh too, where it seems the spells and traps used to mess up an opponent is more important than the monsters that the player has unless they have a great effect. At least to me this is relevant in Pokémon because I think there is too much emphasis on trainers. These days those are the most type of cards player's keep in their decks. The number of Pokémon and energy cards in a deck aren't quiet as big of a deal when that player has the draw engine to get them out and set as soon as possible.