New Special Energy Dicussion

[MorningSTAR1337]

Hello, this is my first thread. But I figured I want to discuss a particular group of Special Energy cards. Which I shall dub as Advanced Energy.

The Advanced Energy cards, debuted in the XY Furious Fists expansion are a group of cards based on the basic energy cards, but with some differences:

• For starters, lets get the obvious outta the way, they are Special Energy cards, so you cannot use more than 4 at a time
• Their art is based on the basic Energy cards, but with the colors of the spheres inverted, this applies to the Icons at the top as well, a trait unseen in the TCG since the Delta Species cards and on Energy cards specifically since the Rainbow Energy reprint used the Colorless icon in the HGSS print.
• They have effects that activate when attached to a pokemon of a corresponding type, and are immediately discarded if the Pokemon is not of that type.

Right now there are 7 Cards in this series. Herbal Energy (Grass), Strong Energy (Fighting), Mystery Energy (Psychic), Wonder Energy (Fairy), Shield Energy (Steel), Flash Energy (Lightning) and Bad Energy (Dark). There is also the Double Dragon Energy which I'd argue to be part of this series, but has a key difference, mainly its effects evoking Double Rainbow Energy. It's picture is also different, evoking the aforementioned card's components (Rainbow Energy and Double Colorless Energy) instead of its basic counterpart (likely because it has no basic counterpart). As of this post there is No Water or Fire Cards for this series.

I'd like your thoughts on these cards.

 

[Pikachu6319]

Advanced/special energy is of course far from new. Rainbow energy made its debut in Team Rocket. Special dark and special steel energy made its debut in Neo Genesis. Too say nothing of course about the fact that Double Colorless was in the first Base Set. In many ways I'm surprised we hadn't seen special versions of basic energy before Furious Fists.

Art changes over the course of a card game. The fact that the energy spheres are inverted in some of the pictures seems a small factor.

Most of the special energy seems to be colorless based so that way any type of deck can theoretically use it and more importantly its effect. That's actually one thing of it that is better than the special ones like Herbal energy where it can only be applied to a grass type Pokémon. While I understand the idea behind the uniqueness of it it's still kind of too bad. After all who wouldn't want to do attach an energy and heal at the same time, a trait that has in fact been seen on a couple other cards in the past. For that reason I'd like to see more cards with abilities like this http://pokebeach.com/media/Lucario-Plasma-Storm-78.jpg for other Pokémon.

In theory one could say Double Dragon energy is a step toward eventually having basic dragon energy as this is the same path that Dark and Metal energy took too. Still I don't know if this will actually happen since that would require a huge redesign for dragon types, it sure couldn't happen in the middle of a set. It would have to take place with the gen 7 shift. That ignores that it doesn't seem to likely to happen.

The question should be that if/when they reveal special energy for water and fire then what? Where is special energy taken from there?

 

[Vom]

I actually really like these cards, as they kinda make each type unique in some sort of way. It kinda sucks that only 2, maybe 3 are useful, these being Flash Energy, Mystery Energy (which becomes better with the upcoming rotation of Float Stone and maybe Keldeo) and of course Strong Energy, which has been very strong in the metagame since its release. See what I did there

They most likely will release something like Flood Energy and Burning Energy (I really really hope the Special Energy for Fire isn't called Hot Energy), maybe with effects like 'If the Pokémon this card is attached to is damaged by so and so, so and so happens,' as I really don't see anything else they could do, based on previous Energy effects.

After, it would be pretty good if they did something new instead of reprinting old Special Energy cards, I'm really hoping for Special Energy that accelerates Energy :V

 

[MorningSTAR1337]

Advanced/special energy is of course far from new. Rainbow energy made its debut in Team Rocket. Special dark and special steel energy made its debut in Neo Genesis. Too say nothing of course about the fact that Double Colorless was in the first Base Set. In many ways I'm surprised we hadn't seen special versions of basic energy before Furious Fists.

Art changes over the course of a card game. The fact that the energy spheres are inverted in some of the pictures seems a small factor.

Most of the special energy seems to be colorless based so that way any type of deck can theoretically use it and more importantly its effect. That's actually one thing of it that is better than the special ones like Herbal energy where it can only be applied to a grass type Pokémon. While I understand the idea behind the uniqueness of it it's still kind of too bad. After all who wouldn't want to do attach an energy and heal at the same time, a trait that has in fact been seen on a couple other cards in the past. For that reason I'd like to see more cards with abilities like this http://pokebeach.com/media/Lucario-Plasma-Storm-78.jpg for other Pokémon.

In theory one could say Double Dragon energy is a step toward eventually having basic dragon energy as this is the same path that Dark and Metal energy took too. Still I don't know if this will actually happen since that would require a huge redesign for dragon types, it sure couldn't happen in the middle of a set. It would have to take place with the gen 7 shift. That ignores that it doesn't seem to likely to happen.

The question should be that if/when they reveal special energy for water and fire then what? Where is special energy taken from there?

As I mentioned in the Dragon thread, I used the term Advanced Energy exclusively for this series (for lack of a better term, I refer to other special enery as well special energy. Plus they are Advanced versions of Basic energy)

As for the toher end of the post. I suspect that the Advanced Energy (Double Dragon included) will be reprinted, but most energy support will still be colorless

 

[TokenDuelist]

Just to be a little blunt: There is no need to give them a new "term" as they are Special Energy. That's all there is to it. They are not advanced versions of Basic Energy as this isn't a new gimmick at all. Since if anything - it would make the Basic Steel and Dark energy more advanced because they were heavily limited before Diamond/Pearl. However those ones had bonus effects to match types. The same can be said for things like Blend Energy and Boost Energy. They are merely energy cards that cater to specific types of Pokemon. Nothing new at all here.

For the discussion though: I am glad there's more variety of these Special Energy catering to different decks because it leaves more room for creativity. Especially in the near future. I'd like to see a Special Water Energy for it soon, as well as fire. But I can assume those will be featured in Red Flash and Blue Impact.

 

[Otaku]

With regards to terminology, I do indeed see a use in coining something to refer to this obvious sub-classification of Special Energy. Pure speculation on my part, but given the game's history I believe it is more likely than not that if this concept isn't abandoned then such a division will ultimately become official. My evidence is how often this has already happened. When the game began we had Pokémon, Trainers and Energy cards. Trainers in particular originally had no divisions but later added Stadiums, then Tools, then Supporters and most relevant the "normal" Trainer that began the game became the Item, after an awkward period when for Supporters and Stadiums were their own separate core card kind but then restored to being "Trainers".

What to call such a division? "Advanced Energy" seems like a poor choice for the reasons given by @TokenDuelist. "Specific Type Special Energy" seems appropriate, and if that is too clunky we should probably look for synonyms and/or turn it into a much shorter acronym. I'm lazy so STSE works for me. Special Energy cards that have no restrictions as to what they can be attached are "General Special Energy" or GSE. Something that STSE would fall under would be "Restricted Attachment Special Energy" or RASE... that last one kind of works for English (the oft confusing English pronunciation rules would have "rase" spoken like "race").

Getting more on subject Double Dragon Energy most definitely belongs in the same grouping as Bad Energy, Flash Energy, Herbal Energy, Mystery Energy, Shield Energy, Strong Energy and Wonder Energy; though it is the only current STSE to provide either (let alone both) two units of Energy and Energy that counts as more than one Energy Type while in play, everything that is available for reference matches up. Though unlikely, we could (and perhaps should) have received similar effects (not both together of course) for other Types. As is I would like to see Double Colorless Energy reprinted with the STSE restrictions for the Colorless-Type, but that is because I believe DCE causes more problems than it solves in its present form but it keeps being reprinted so it isn't going away anytime soon. Such a reworded reprint would force an errata of past releases and lessen what I consider to be the damage done by having two units of Energy (even if they are Colorless) available to so many cards.

 

[Pikachu6319]

I think we'd be just fine with specific type energy (STE) since we already know anyrhing that isn't basic energy is special energy, though I agree with Tokenduelist that even needing this sub class could border on unnecessary. Then we could have general special energy (GSE) and Restricrd attached special energy (RASE) though maybe we could even remove attached from the term for restricted special energy (RSE).

So we'd have:
Basic energy fighting energy
Specific type (special) energy like Strong energy
General special energy like Rainbow energy
Restricted (attached) special energy like Double Magma energy

I can definitely see a case for double colorless energy working only for colorless Pokemon if they continue with the trend they started with Roaring Skies with regards of making that typing more viable on its own as opposed to a supporting type.

To build on our curren STSE I'd like s special dragon energy a la the ones we have like Strong or Herb energy, then see all the other types get their own version of double energy.

For the purposes of variation in decks I'd also like to see the return of blend energies, multi energy and redone versions of energies similar to the Holon energies.

 

[steffenka]

I like the STE(ffenka). I think it's good that they're specific, since they give sort of an "advantage" to each type. Also they have really cool designs. Though like Pika6319, I'd like to see Blend Energies come back.

I've been thinking that since the next set was Blue Impact and Red Flash, that we might be getting the Fire and Water energy there, and maybe a Fire and Water Mega to go along with each energy.

 

[Otaku]

To build on our curren STSE I'd like s special dragon energy a la the ones we have like Strong or Herb energy, then see all the other types get their own version of double energy.

My concerns with this (presented for your consideration - not like either of us calls the shots XD) are:

1. Game Balance Pt. 1 - most other Types simply lack the issues Dragon-Types face when it comes to paying for attacks. In fact it sounds pretty broken for the most part.
2. Game Balance Pt. 2 - Why is this principle unique to Double Dragon Energy? Shouldn't we get some form of "defense" buff and "offensive" buff then for each Energy as well?
3. It robs the Dragon-Type of their unique "thing". Plenty of these STE cards already don't feel particularly fitting for their Type, but less so when we start duplicating effects to increase the overlap.

 

[Pikachu6319]

I would counter that the uniqueness of dragons needing 2 types of energy not including colorless to attack makes it unique enough and could easily stand a single type special dragon energy without a major problem.

You are right though that double energy for other types could very well be unbalancing or even broken. My only possible exception there might be fire since most of their attacks require eneegy to be discarded.

Of course a special fire energy could easily counter that without being doubled, calling it Inferno energy and simply say you do not have to discard energy to use any attacks on that Pokemon.

 

[Otaku]

Of course a special fire energy could easily counter that without being doubled, calling it Inferno energy and simply say you do not have to discard energy to use any attacks on that Pokemon.

...or by being a single Energy but that states you do not have to discard it if a cost or effect would discard it. That too would help Fire-Types out quite a bit. There are other more realistic possibilities, though and I am not sure if we should delve into "Create-A-Card" territory here. Sticking to what we do know, I think the designers have made things difficult for themselves because there isn't the kind of distinction between the Colors (Types) in Pokémon as I have been repeatedly told it is in Magic: the Gathering. Throw in Strong Energy just being too strong and I think it really has created issues for each Type.

Only a few have effects not easily supplied by other cards, and when it comes to stacking effects only certain cards do it and even fewer do it well.

 

[MorningSTAR1337]

STE works, The reason I wanted to discuss them is because I noticed a few similarities (mostly in the art and especialy icons), I kinda disagree with @Pikachu6319 in that this sub classification is unnecessary if the game is going out of their way to make this series different to the other Special Energy cards (especially with the icons, in consideration to the fact that Rainbow Energy lost its special icon in the recent Johto sets), though I think it will be on a more unofficial basis

As for DCE, I can see why he would want something like an errata, but the thing is It seems that Colorless is meant to be support as of late, A Vanilla type that helps other types, and the mechanics I think tie into that, a more practical solution (as opposed to more DCE snowclones or errattating) would just to make more Pokemon hat require specific types of energy instead of colorless ones (think the EX like Primal Origins Gardivoir), and wait for the rotation to kick in.

But then again this isn;t Yu-Gi-Oh where anything slightly broken is banned/limited on a quarterly basis, in face the only cad I can think of that was actually banned due to egregious imbalance was Lysander's rather appropriate named Trump Card (Again, this isn't YGO, where Discard piles can be readily tapped into as a resource, plus stuff like Ace Specs are only balanced by their limitation), It seems that if DCE was that Game-breaking, then it wouden't had been reprinted as ofthen as it had been

 

[Otaku]

STE works, The reason I wanted to discuss them is because I noticed a few similarities (mostly in the art and especialy icons), I kinda disagree with @Pikachu6319 in that this sub classification is unnecessary if the game is going out of their way to make this series different to the other Special Energy cards (especially with the icons, in consideration to the fact that Rainbow Energy lost its special icon in the recent Johto sets), though I think it will be on a more unofficial basis

Honestly STE shouldn't have their own unique icons either; I was quite frustrated when the old "metarule" that an Energy card's "base" value (what Energy it counted as even when its effects weren't working) corresponded to the symbols in the cards upper-right or upper-left-hand corner (depends on the release).

As for DCE, I can see why he would want something like an errata, but the thing is It seems that Colorless is meant to be support as of late, A Vanilla type that helps other types, and the mechanics I think tie into that, a more practical solution (as opposed to more DCE snowclones or errattating) would just to make more Pokemon hat require specific types of energy instead of colorless ones (think the EX like Primal Origins Gardivoir), and wait for the rotation to kick in.

Except this has been an issue since Double Colorless Energy was re-released (having not been reprinted since Base Set 2) as a part of HeartGold/SoulSilver... which had cards right away that could benefit from it too greatly. Energy acceleration is potent. True there are many powerful cards, cards I would describe as being too strong, that have little to no use for Double Colorless Energy, but they don't make the cards that do suddenly "balanced" except in the most rare of circumstances. It is kind of like Batman and Superman - they can keep each other in check but it doesn't suddenly put them on even footing with most other DC superheroes or villains. In more recent TCG history, Double Colorless Energy is why Mewtwo-EX was able to hit so hard, so fast. Decks with multiple Energy attachments still could have made use of Mewtwo-EX even without Double Colorless Energy, but Mewtwo-EX wouldn't have been so strong. Tornadus-EX (regular version) would have been in a similar boat. Yveltal-EX would still be amazing, but not quite so amazing and M Rayquaza-EX would need two Mega Turbo instead of one to ready it in a single turn (though my suggestion would leave it just as fast).

We don't get a lot of true Type support in this game, especially with all the Types we have now as opposed to when the game began; as such getting Aspertia City Gym in addition to some attackers with great synergy in the BW sets while getting Winona and Colorless Altaria (ROS) as direct, true Colorless-Type support seems to speak volumes; by their nature Colorless Pokémon easily work with everything else, but so have many, many other cards. Keldeo-EX with one of numerous forms of retreat aid (whether direct like Float Stone or indirect like Energy acceleration that makes it easy to pay to retreat it) doesn't mean Water-Types are supposed to be the new supporting Type for everything. Rough Seas provides support for both Lightning-Types and Water-Types, but I don't think the game is trying to get us to run those two Types only together. By their nature, Colorless-Type Pokémon, thanks to their attacks usually being Colorless-Type, work with another Type but I don't think that means we aren't allowed to have a strong deck that is mostly or even all Colorless Pokémon.

But then again this isn;t Yu-Gi-Oh where anything slightly broken is banned/limited on a quarterly basis...

I played Yu-Gi-Oh in the U.S. from around the release of the original Yugi and Kaiba Starter decks (before the release of the first official expansion) and stopped in 2009. I tried to get back into about five years ago, then again two to three years ago. All three times, I left because of how many cards that are blatantly broken are left in the metagame. The designers just seem to focus on upping the power creep and tacking on new gimmick mechanics which (in conjunction with the animation) helps to keep fresh meat buying the packs (which the long time players "feed upon"). The fact that Pokémon is no longer distinctly different is a major concern of mine.

...in face the only cad I can think of that was actually banned due to egregious imbalance was Lysander's rather appropriate named Trump Card (Again, this isn't YGO, where Discard piles can be readily tapped into as a resource, plus stuff like Ace Specs are only balanced by their limitation), It seems that if DCE was that Game-breaking, then it wouden't had been reprinted as ofthen as it had been

Ace Spec cards are not balanced, Lysandre's Trump Card just made them easier to abuse. A single potent card allowed into the deck means:

1. Said card is hard to search out and/or recycle. This means it is foolish to make it an integral part of your deck, leaving it as little more than a lucky power-play when it does show up at the appropriate time.
2. Said card can (with at least relative ease) be searched out and/or recycled, allowing it to become an integral part of your deck... except the fact that it was supposed to be a one-time-thing was supposed to balance out its effect, making it blatantly overpowered.

"Broken" does not mean that the game ceases to function, it means it detracts from the optimal game balance. It is late and I still have a CotD to write but I can go into more detail if needed. There have been a few other cards banned, but very few (especially when we don't count "special circumstances" such as a card banned for the Professor's Cup tournament one year or cards like Ancient Mew, a particular Mew promo originally not intended to be legal, later made legal and then once again the floor rules were changed so it became illegal. Said Mew had a non-standard card back and is not written in a regions' local language but looks like this:

Spoiler

 

[MorningSTAR1337]

I played Yu-Gi-Oh in the U.S. from around the release of the original Yugi and Kaiba Starter decks (before the release of the first official expansion) and stopped in 2009. I tried to get back into about five years ago, then again two to three years ago. All three times, I left because of how many cards that are blatantly broken are left in the metagame. The designers just seem to focus on upping the power creep and tacking on new gimmick mechanics which (in conjunction with the animation) helps to keep fresh meat buying the packs (which the long time players "feed upon"). The fact that Pokémon is no longer distinctly different is a major concern of mine.

To be fair, Pokemon still has Set Rotations and Archetypes aren't so blatant as in that game (Coming from a guy who like YGO Archetypes, I dare you to count the amount of Monsters in recent [as in the last 8] sets that don't share a buzzword in their name, if you can find at least 100, then I shall applaud your efforts). In face I don't think YGO's Archetypes as they are would had been feasible as a concept if that game had Set Rotation, as opposed to their banlists

Ace Spec cards are not balanced, Lysandre's Trump Card just made them easier to abuse. A single potent card allowed into the deck means:

1. Said card is hard to search out and/or recycle. This means it is foolish to make it an integral part of your deck, leaving it as little more than a lucky power-play when it does show up at the appropriate time.
2. Said card can (with at least relative ease) be searched out and/or recycled, allowing it to become an integral part of your deck... except the fact that it was supposed to be a one-time-thing was supposed to balance out its effect, making it blatantly overpowered.

You have a point. However I know some people have different ways of having fun, and this it sis likely that some people have fun by blatantly using Game Breakers that most people would consider to be tantamount to cheating. And more generally people, are attracted to winning with flashy power plays (See, Base Set Charizard, its price, and the relative value to its competitive viability). To make an allegory, how would you like to slay your foes? Melee, Gunfire, Nukes or summoning a Meteor Shower?

"Broken" does not mean that the game ceases to function, it means it detracts from the optimal game balance. It is late and I still have a CotD to write but I can go into more detail if needed. There have been a few other cards banned, but very few (especially when we don't count "special circumstances" such as a card banned for the Professor's Cup tournament one year or cards like Ancient Mew, a particular Mew promo originally not intended to be legal, later made legal and then once again the floor rules were changed so it became illegal. Said Mew had a non-standard card back and is not written in a regions' local language but looks like this:

Spoiler

I'm well aware of that. Hence the wording in that part of my post. Some of the cards that are banned for any reason besides "It was part of an older set and aren't reprinted in a more recent set" seem to be banned because it would be unplayable (like the Ancient Mew card), or have issues with rulings (such as the Birthday Pikachu), Of course I did do some digging and it seems that most of the cards that were banned did seem to be due to being overpowered at the time.

Regardless, I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this.

 

[Pikachu6319]

As an on again off again Yugioh player, I do agree that if they did the same thing Pokémon did then archetypes wouldn't work. The power creep in Yugioh I think is absolutely ridiculous, making any attempt to run theme decks or what could be rogue decks even more of a ridiculous proposition than it seems to be for Pokémon. The fact that Pokémon is seemingly looking to follow this trend is rather concerning and is one reason I've been primarily a collector.

I agree that people have different ways of having fun, but morningSTAR but let's reverse that position and ask how would you like to be slayed; melee, gunfire, nukes or meteor shower? I sure wouldn't want to go for a fistfight and have my opponent point an RPG at me. If I'm using a deck that isn't based on EX's and using speed to get out everything as quickly as possible (and we all know how foolish that logically is these days) then it can take the fun out of it if I face someone who is doing exactly that. But tournaments don't pair up by how a player decides to build their deck and they aren't based on having fun. While there is pretty much no such thing as all players being on the same level it's still very disconcerting (to say the least) when something like the above scenario happens, prompting those who are more interested in having fun than making top cuts to potentially leave the game.

Too bad there is no way to divide up the formats for such things.

 

[Otaku]

In face I don't think YGO's Archetypes as they are would had been feasible as a concept if that game had Set Rotation, as opposed to their banlists

Why do you think archetypes are such a pain to manage in Yu-Gi-Oh? Without set rotation old stuff long abandoned still lingers and instead of a 15 year old card being left in the format by design (since it had to be reprinted recently) with Yu-Gi-Oh everything from the beginning is still there unless banned. With set rotation they can take the typical approach; re-release cards that would otherwise have rotated out. When I played reprints were pretty common, and they had finally been introducing "Structure" decks outside of Japan so you even had a legitimate means of keeping a specific archetype in the game. The thing is... maybe some of those archetypes need to rotate, given that the designers have the seemingly impossible task of balancing out 16 years worth of cards?

To make an allegory, how would you like to slay your foes? Melee, Gunfire, Nukes or summoning a Meteor Shower?

Um... wouldn't it make more sense to ask how I'd like to lose a sporting match? Your opponent shouldn't be trying to kill you but simply to best you in which case would you need to ask things like

• Would I rather lose due to my own failure/opponent's skill or due to luck?
• Would I rather lose in a close game, a blow-out, or something-in-between?
• Now combine the two (close/skill vs. close/luck vs. blow-out/skill vs. blow-out/luck vs. something-in-between/skill vs. something-in-between/luck)
• Now answer all of the above for what you would least prefer.
• Finally... consider how you accomplish each and whether you should be seeking to maximize enjoyment, minimize disgust or if you can try to find the point that optimizes both.

So don't focus on how you want to win, at least not as the only question. Second couch it in context and except that some people are jerks without realizing it. Some people don't give a rip about skill. The game should not cater to them because it is counterproductive. Those that wish to humiliate their foes through sheer dominance (big plays are possible in balanced games) are customers that scare off other customers. What about those that like luck? Start making Pokémon themed regular playing cards or dice - if it is about luck I'll just get six dice, each with my favorite Pokémon, and we can dice off. to "Poké Battle".

Now I realize that the traditional TCG formula includes a certain amount of variance (luck); but it seems like we get a sufficient amount from assembling our decks from a larger card pool (instead of having the same sets of resources, like in Chess) and from luck-of-the-draw (as our decks are sufficiently randomized beforehand). I don't think we need much if any beyond that and even if I'm not sure of the correct amount, it is too much right now. A lot of incentive and enjoyment fades away when you're not sure how much of your win is "you" and how much of it is "luck". Same for cards and their potency: how much of my win is (again) me and my skill versus how much of it is because I simply have better cards?

So... I want games where my card choices and how I use them matter and not just my luck with draws and coin flips. I want to soundly defeat less skilled players with just enough room for them to win that it will still be enjoyable. When facing someone more skilled than myself, I want to be able to recognize it and only have an appropriate chance of winning and when both of us are equals, then I want a close, close match. Making sure I'm playing against people that are my equals is my responsibility in free play, not much of a concern in tournament play (which is designed to filter us down to the top player) but is important for ranked online play. In the end though, my opponent's skill versus my own should be what determined if it is a blow-out, close, or something-in-between.