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Discussion in 'Pokémon Trading Card Game' started by Water Pokémon Master, Jul 31, 2020.
But I pulled Bellelba FA from a Tag Team GX box earlier this week and was gonna try and sell it...
I wonder which milk decks are healthy and fun to play against. I wonder why they print these cards in the first instance...
Most mill decks are fair. As a mill player, I love things like wail stall or Durant. Bellelba was just unhealthy in standard especially in combination with guru
But Mismagius? Why?
I think both bans are unjustified:
Bellelba was god in mill, but that’s loosing guru and gets significantly worse. I still think it might just have worked based on 4 Bellelba and 4 pal pad and more strict resource management, but I guess TPCI doesn’t want the kind of decks that are healthiest for the format.
Mismagius combos never really worked in standard: I’ve tried multiple variations, none of which where consistent enough to pull of the combo. The best strategy I’ve come to is blowing up three Mismagius and attaching two island challenge amulets to a Genesect GX, leaving the opponent with 1 prize and then playing stamp+chip chip. I use pheromosa GX to attack (60 for 1 with beast energy and then 280 for 2 with the gx attack when the opponent only has 1 prize). Thing is: it was so clunky since you needed Mismagius in deck for dusk stone and you constantly drew into them. It also had other issues like the opponent starting jirachi or them going first and benching enough Pokémon to buy time, non of which would be helped by crobat v. In total the deck maybe won 1/3 of games which in my opinion is to little to justify a ban, especially when it hasn’t even had results in a tournament.
Bans in standard should just happen when something dominates the format and makes it boring to play, like Lysandre’s trump card was together with shamin EX, but I guess TPCI can do whatever they want...
Why does Pokemon need reprints instead of just standard errata like every other card game? Especially in Mismagius's case where it's obvious that the solution will either be to restrict it to a "hard" once per turn or not allow it on the turn it evolves.
They don't ban cards based on dominance though; they ban cards based on how entertaining they are to watch in a tournament stream. That's why they target mill and control only; they wand the format to be as fast and aggressive as possible. I personally don't think they'd even ban a tier 0 aggro deck. If it were truly the health of the format that they cared about, Welder would be here as well getting an errata to remove the draw 3.
This quote makes it very clear that the health of the game is not the priority with their banlists:
"There are no major Play! Pokémon tournaments using the Expanded format in the near future, so no cards will be banned from that format yet. Based on recent results, it's clear that there are some issues with the current Expanded format environment, but those problems will be addressed in a future update."
Basically "yeah we know there are problems but it doesn't affect our viewership or marketing so we don't care lol." If this game were looked at by TPC/TPCi the way that Konami looks at Yu-Gi-Oh or Wizards looks at Magic, it would be a vastly different game. For Pokemon, just like the video games, it's just a marketing tool for merchandise. That's why the TCG and the video games can never reach their full potential. The TCG needs management that cares about the health of the game, and the video games would need management willing to either completely change how the entire franchise is organized or have a generation last 5-8 years for the sake of putting out the massive RPG experience the hardcore fanbase wants.
Now they have to print a different Pokemon with the same ability as Mismagius. They could have just banned Dusk Stone, I think this was the obvious one to ban, or they could have banned Reset Stamp because you can Stamp + Jessie & James to get your opponent to a 0 card hand. Reset Stamp with Dusknoir & Trevenant TTGX is quite an issue too. Reset Stamp will always make "hand destruction" possible to the point where your opponent can't play the game on their turn.
Did you read the article? It's a temporary ban where they will reprint it with an errata. Also, why do they "have to?" You're acting like the game needs an effect like this to survive.
I can't say if this is the reason for the ban but there is a strong combo with Mally Vmax, Rose, Mismagius, and Reset Stamp.
I strongly disagree with banning Dusk Stone. While there are no other cards that are really meta that use Dusk Stone, banning it also affects Chandelure, Honchkrow, and Aegislash. So any possible decks that run those Pokemon get punished by banning Dusk Stone, not just this Mismagius.
I more agree with banning Reset Stamp. Or rather, I don't know why Pokemon keeps making cards akin to Reset Stamp in the first place, then get surprised when players abuse the effect and have to ban other cards later on to stop its most negative effect. Trying to prevent or delay your opponent from setting up while YOU try to set up is a fine strategy, but you'd think they have to know some effects are too strong when creating these cards, right?
Not that this fixes the current issue with using multiple Mismagius followed by a Reset Stamp, but I really wish they would have kept making Ace Specs or Prism Stars. This is your one shot at this strong effect--use it wisely! But nope. Apparently, they were just temporary gimmicks.
100% agree, banning Dusk Stone would be idiotic.
I have to agree with the other commenters that said the problem is Reset Stamp.
Prizes are no longer a good indicator of whether someone is "winning" or "losing". If my opponent has two prizes and I have three, but I'm aiming at his Tag Team to OHKO, am I really "losing"? What if I'm playing some form of Dolls/Spiritomb/Blacephalon and I take three prizes for an OHKO while they take one? This meta design just begs for exploits.
Psychic decks already start using Trevenant & Dusknoir GX to destroy their opponent's hand after losing a Tag Team. That's not going to change.
So yeah, while Reset Stamp seems fine on its own, the current balance makes it very annoying to play against, and it's not even on a supporter. We already have Marnie to control hand sizes.
Pokemon having banning any cards that disrupts their bottom line, which is cards that would stall fast matches like from welder and hard hitting Pokemon V. They can't have flagship cards like Charizard and eternatus being stalled or neutered. At first they were okay with mill or stall deck, now they are banning any viable counters to hyper-attacking decks. Brycen is useful as a mill deck. Ptgco made it clear that they want 1 knockout wins. Meaning if you have 1 Pokemon and unable do anything on the first turn, and it's an instant lose
Why is it more important for Chandelure, Honchkrow, and Aegislash to retain Dusk Stone than it is for decks to retain access to Mismagius?
Evolution acceleration can be a very dangerous thing. Dusk Stone likely means all the Evolution lines which can use it are going to be "pre-nerfed" while it lasts. Still, if you don't want it banned... what about an errata? I mean, it sounds like that is what is ultimately happening with these two freshly banned cards.
Pokemon should start taking some ideas from yugioh on limiting their cards. They could make it so that B&B keeps you from attacking that turn or mismagius's ability can not used the turn it evolves or the first turn if it was evolved via dusk stone.
Because clearly the overuse of this Mismagius is the issue, not Chandelure, Honchkrow, Aegislash, or even other Mismagius cards.
You say evolution acceleration can be a very dangerous thing, and I'd agree that it CAN be, but are any of the best decks right now Stage 2 decks or even non-VMAX Stage 1 decks? I looked into it since I'm out of the loop, and I'm under the impression that the majority of decks focus on Basic GX's, V's, or VMAX's. (So I guess nothing's really changed since 2011/2012.) Up to this point, outside of Mismagius, has Dusk Stone made waves for top tier decks? I could be wrong, but I didn't see anything supporting that.
The point is, removing or giving an errata to Dusk Stone in order to nerf Mismagius removes potential and support from a very select group of cards that, by all means, could certainly use that support in a Big Basic/VMAX-heavy format. (Without Dusk Stone and the Top Entry Lampent, would anyone try out that Spirit Burner Chandelure? Probably not. It's far from top tier, but it's at least fun.) It hasn't hurt the game to give those other cards this Dusk Stone support, so why then punish those cards for the overuse of this Mismagius? Meanwhile, giving an errata to Mismagius itself actually solves the issue of it's own Ability being too powerful to use repeatedly as early as turn 1. It's not a matter of importance for the other cards as much as it is zeroing in on the actual issue without collateral damage.
Let me rephrase:
Why is the non-competitive use of Chandelure, Honchkrow, and Aegislash more important than preserving the non-broken, but still competitive, use of Mismagius?
Banning Dusk Stone targets the one of the two key problems that led to Mismagius being banned: Mismagius hitting the field too soon, or Reset Stamp being able to wreck a player's hand Turn 1. However, I would prefer they just banned Reset Stamp, as explained in other posts. I actually agreed with a decent chunk you said, but in my haste to comment while I could, I focused only on where we disagreed.
Check out some of the other cards on the Ban List, though some are more obvious than others. No, really. If you do and don't get what it is I'm talking about, I'll explain this part later. For now, I'll just point out that one of the big issues with this game is Rare Candy. Not just before its most recent errata nerfed it; even as it is now, its a universal shortcut that the powers-that-be use to slack off on "fixing" the evolution mechanic, and which most of us just roll with as a given. As long as Rare Candy exists, Stage 2 Pokémon need to be preemptively nerfed to take it into account, or risk being unbalanced.
Your last sentence, though, gets back to the question I asked after the first. Ban Dusk Stone and Mismagus remains but in a "safe" manner. The other Evolution lines compatible with Dusk Stone also remain, but future additions no longer need to worry about Dusk Stone breaking them. No current competitive decks of which I am aware are hurt by the loss of Dusk Stone except the one the Bans are targeting.
So... basically we disagree on what is the more severe collateral damage. Like I said, I'd rather just reject Reset Stamp. If I have to hit Dusk Stone - which threatens to break future otherwise safe releases, or Mismagius, which only seems to break a mechanic I think is already at least half-broken, I choose Dusk Stone.
I get what you're saying; I really do. But the thing is, I think banning Dusk Stone now to potentially save an issue in the future is jumping the gun. Also, that doesn't hold Pokemon accountable for designing cards WITH previous cards in mind. And that's why I initially went on a mini rant about Reset Stamp. If Pokemon wants expanded formats to exist, they need to be cognisant of the past and the present when designing new cards.
Here's the thing about Dusk Stone. Mainly, the "issue" is the fact that it can work on turn 1.
- When looking at the four Pokemon it works with, we can pretty much throw Aegislash and Chandelure out the window as being issues. For the most part, the fastest you could get either out is on turn 2. (The one exception that I can think of is the Top Entry Lampent. But that would require Lampent to be your draw card on your first turn. Not impossible, but it's also not consistent.) Generally, Rare Candy is the better choice for these two. Dusk Stone requires you to have the Stage 1's to evolve from, which means a heavier Pokemon line. Rare Candy allows for a lighter Pokemon line, freeing up space in the deck.
- That just leaves Honchkrow and Mismagius, which can evolve on turn 1. Starting with Honchkrow, of all the the previous Honchkrow cards in the Expanded format, only Honchkrow GX has a powerful turn 1 with its Ability that prevents your opponent from playing Tools, Special Energies, and Stadiums if Honchkrow GX is the Active Pokemon. (So it's Giratina EX's Chaos Wheel as an Ability.) But there are two glaring issues with it being viable. Even in Expanded, and if we could manage to get an item lock set up as well... Boss's Orders, Guzma, and Lysander exist. The other issue is that Honchkrow is a 2-prize Pokemon that is weak to Lightning.
- And aside from this Mysterious Message Mismagius, I found one other card in the Expanded format that would be a turn 1 option. Funnily enough, the one from Crimson Invasion has Chaos Wheel as an attack for one Psychic energy. The issue with this being viable is that it's an attack, so at earliest, you can use it turn 1 going second. The opponent can then easily KO the Mismagius because it only has 110 HP, making Chaos Wheel a temporary inconvenience at best. Also funnily enough, there's a Mismagius from BREAKthrough that has an Ability with the same effect as Reset Stamp. But it doesn't work with Dusk Stone because the Ability only works when you evolve Mismagius from your hand.
- Now as for the future, Dusk Stone says it works with these four Pokemon, including Pokemon GX. This is getting into technicalities of game mechanics and cards that don't exist (yet), but it specifies including GX's, and it doesn't say something like "Search your deck for a Pokemon with [those four] in its name..." I don't think Dusk Stone will work with VMAX's or whatever the next big things will be in the future, if they evolve. So that just leaves regular Pokemon cards that Dusk Stone works with in the future. And again, Dusk Stone loses to Rare Candy, so we can throw Aegislash and Chandelure out the window. Now with the current errata of Mismagius in their minds, if Pokemon still somehow manages to mess up and create a regular Mismagius or Honchkrow that becomes broken in Expanded with Dusk Stone, then sure, I guess ban Dusk Stone. But I'd like to think the chances of a repeat this specific should be very slim.
This is why I see keeping Dusk Stone as-is to be a non-issue, when Mismagius received the errata.
That's all I really wanted to make clear. Disagreeing with me is fine; given my track record, it might even be the playing the odds. XD Except... there rest of your post makes me wonder if you do get it. Because, if you did... why waste so much time explaining stuff that, as far as I am concerned, supports my point? We disagree on which thing is more important to preserve...
...about a decision where we both think the real culprit (Reset Stamp) managed to skate. Well, I think we agreed on that... we're looping around again so I'm not so sure now. @[email protected]
The point was what I said right after the first sentence. I think you're jumping the gun by wanting to ban Dusk Stone just in case Pokemon makes the same very specific bone-headed decision that they had to fix. Then to back that opinion up, I explained why that should be a non-issue and doesn't need to happen when Mismagius already received an errata. But sure, apparently giving an explanation to back up my own opinion means you win. If it's that important.