Ruling Lunatone + Kecleon

[Yaginku]

I have noticed this funny interaction, but I don't own Lunatone on PTCGO to actually test it. It goes like this:

Lunatone CES 61
If you have Solrock in play, [R] Pokémon in play (both yours and your opponent’s) have no Abilities, except Pokémon-GX and Pokémon-EX.

Kecleon LOT 161
As long as this Pokémon has Unit Energy [L][R][W] attached to it, it is a [L], [R] and [W] Pokémon.

So, we have Lunatone, Solrock and Kecleon with Unit Energy in play. It loses all abilities, because it is a fire Pokemon. But that means it's no longer a fire Pokemon, so it's not affected by Lunatone. Where does the loop stop?

 

[snoopy369]

So the compendium has something related, but not identical:

Q. What happens if Kecleon with "Color Change" and Wobbuffet with "Bide Barricade" end up as Active Pokemon opposite each other? Does Kecleon change to Psychic, or does Wobbuffet shut off its power and Kecleon stays Colorless?
A. If Kecleon starts out as Psychic and then Wobbuffet becomes Active, Kecleon stays Psychic. But if Wobbuffet is Active first, or if they both become Active at the same time (including as the starting Pokemon), then Kecleon stays Colorless. (Dec 4, 2014 TPCi Rules Team)

That's not identical to your question, but I think it informs the direction this would go. If Kecleon were already Fire type, it would stay that way, and if Lunatone’s ability came online first, it would "win" and prevent Kecleon from being fire type.

The difference is that technically Lunatone’s ability doesn't proc against Kecleon until after Kecleon's does, so that's why I'm not totally sure. But I think the way to resolve the infinite loop is the same as above, let whomever's ability is active first win. There are a lot of examples of similar things like that.

 

[Yaginku]

@snoopy369
Thanks.
Is there a "last layer of defense" in Pokemon rules, that resolves contradictions/loops through timestamps (aka "which effect triggered earlier")? It is how it works in Magic, though it can become complicated when it comes down to it.

 

[snoopy369]

I don't know that there is an official rule to that effect, but certainly sometimes that seems to be the resolution.

I'm not sure that's exactly the issue here, anyway; for example with Kecleon's color change ability it doesn't make it a true infinite loop since Kecleon changes color to make it _avoid_ Wobuffett's ability. That's why I'm not totally confident here: it may well be one or the other strictly, also. (If it were, then I suspect it would be that Kecleon loses out.)

 

[The Almighty Bidoof]

I have a similar question. Say a player uses Guzma to target an opponent's Wobbuffet (PHF). They promote Slaking (CES), what happens? My only guess is the Slaking but Guzma doesn't specify whether you switch then they switch or the other way around. I'd assume it is still the Guzma'd player who gets sent up first but not sure

 

[snoopy369]

I have a similar question. Say a player uses Guzma to target an opponent's Wobbuffet (PHF). They promote Slaking (CES), what happens? My only guess is the Slaking but Guzma doesn't specify whether you switch then they switch or the other way around. I'd assume it is still the Guzma'd player who gets sent up first but not sure

Text:

Switch 1 of your opponent's Benched Pokémon with their Active Pokémon. If you do, switch your Active Pokémon with 1 of your Benched Pokémon.

Your opponent's Pokémon comes out first, then yours does, per the card text. So Wobbuffet would be the "active" ability. This ruling covers that, except for the Guzma specifics:

Q. What happens if both Slaking with "Lazy" and Garbodor with "Garbotoxin" in play? Do they cancel each other out or what?
A. It depends on the order in which each Ability gets activated. Both Lazy & Garbotoxin require a condition in order to activate (either being the Active Pokemon or having a Tool attached), so when one of the abilities is active the other one is prevented. But if the ability gets disabled (like if Slaking is no longer the Active Pokemon or if Garbodor loses its attached Tool), then the other ability can activate even if it was previously prevented. (Celestial Storm FAQ; Aug 2, 2018 TPCi Rules Team)

The Guzma specifics aren't covered in the Compendium, but the card text seems sufficient to me...

 

[Nyora]

So what if I have any Eevee (with stealthy hood) and Trubbish, then use Grand Bloom-GX with this Lunatone (and Solrock ofc) in my opponent's field? I assume Garbodor's Ability no longer becomes existent, corect? And this would be because Flareon and Garbodor come out at the same time, making it a [R] type.

 

[snoopy369]

Not sure I follow at all why any of that would be the case - why would Garbodor be a [R] type? Am I missing something here? Are you including a Flare Effect Flareon or something like that?

If Flare Effect Flareon came out (with Stealthy Hood), and Garbotoxin Garbodor came out (with a non-stealthy hood tool), then I'm not sure what would happen. You might get to choose which one comes out "first", or they both might come out together. There might be a Compendium ruling on that, but I don't have time to look now, sorry!

 

[Nyora]

Not sure I follow at all why any of that would be the case - why would Garbodor be a [R] type? Am I missing something here? Are you including a Flare Effect Flareon or something like that?

If Flare Effect Flareon came out (with Stealthy Hood), and Garbotoxin Garbodor came out (with a non-stealthy hood tool), then I'm not sure what would happen. You might get to choose which one comes out "first", or they both might come out together. There might be a Compendium ruling on that, but I don't have time to look now, sorry!

Yeah I forgot to specify, it is Flare Effect Flareon. Thinking about it, I think you would just choose which one comes into effect first, since iirc that's how it works with stacking between turns effects.