Standard Kingdra Sweep?

[GA_Dyno]

Hello all. I'm experimenting with a deck idea that I've been really looking forward to ever since I saw the Kingdra card. I'm curious to get some input here and believe that this deck has some potential in setting up quick and getting a 150,170, or even a 190 hit in turn 2. Deck list is below. I am open to all critique and mainly looking to push the deck further.

Pokémon: 8

• 4 Horsea (PC 30)
• 4 Kingdra (PC 108)

Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums: 42

• 4 VS Seeker
• 4 Trainers' Mail
• 4 Battle Compressor
• 3 Energy Retrieval
• 4 Rare Candy
• 4 Ultra Ball
• 1 Archie's Ace in the Hole
• 2 Fisherman
• 2 Giovanni's Scheme
• 2 Lysandre
• 3 Skyla
• 3 Professor Sycamore
• 2 Team Flare Grunts
• 1 Xerosic
• 2 Healing Scarf
• 2 Muscle Band

Energy: 9

• 5 Water Energy
• 4 Electric Energy

Strategy:

The main goal here is to get Horsea with an energy turn 1 and get Kingdra out turn 2. On turn 2 we can attach 2 energies to Kingdra totaling 3 which will allow us to hit for 150 + Muscle Band and/or Giovanni's Scheme netting 170 (for most EXs) or 190 (for those pesky 180 EXs.) Healing Scarf allows us to heal for 40 each turn since we add 2 energies on Kingdra, but I'm starting to think less of the card since Muscle Band seems to be the way to go in most matchups minus Night March. If Kingdra can keep control with Lysandre and Grunts so that every energy that goes down on a Pokemon is knocked out, it should be going smoothly. Also, if I seem to have field control turn 2 or the opponent isnt set up fully, I could opt to go for Gather Strength to get 4 energies (if they havnt been compressed yet) into my hand and out of my deck.

A couple notes:

- I am only running 4 Pokemon, yes, I am also testing Super Rod in order to get a few of my Kingdra lines back if I am in a pinch. I feel as though this deck should not get knocked out 6 times, and if so, I'm not ending the game fast enough or controlling well enough. Ive thought about adding Shaymin or Regice, but don't like the idea of cleaning up the mess they make when starting as an active turn 1 (that 1/5 chance.)

- I an testing Archie's Ace in the Hole, but as of now, I don't really have a good use for him since I'm Opting to go for Skyla into Rare Candy. Should I just Battle Compress 1 Kingdra and get him out via Archie's?

 

[Hornleach1]

I spent time testing the deck back when Kingdra first came out and loved it. If I was to build it again now I wound suggest running either Manetric EX or Miltank. Both work ok at the beginning and both use very few energy. I would also suggest running Double dragon energy as it helps when you come across hammers being able to set-up a Kingdra instantly. I feel you could probably drop the healing scarfs for muscle bands as most thing one shot the Kingdra anyway. The last point I will say is that if you go up against Toad decks its an auto loss with this deck list. I would suggest dropping a rare candy or 2 for Seadra. Hope this helps in some way.

 

[Aeter]

There is something I don't understand. What is the point with Archie since Kingdra is not Water Type ?

 

[TheLunaticHypno]

There is something I don't understand. What is the point with Archie since Kingdra is not Water Type ?

I'm not too sure... Maybe he meant seadra so he wouldn't have to deal with candy?
Here's my changes and explanations below
-3 Battle comressor
-1 skyla
-1 rare candy
-3 energy retrieval

+3 double dragon energy
+2 seadra
+3 training centers

This deck is certainly one of the most interesting I've seen in a while. Why don't you run any double dragon energy? It it a good card to have in here, because you won't always have the chance to get two energies in your hand. It can be a really good top deck at times. If I were making this list I would also include a stadium. I'm not sure why you have the 4 compressors, but I would scrap 3 and add 3 training centers. They give Kingdra 30 more hp incase you didn't know. It's a good card to make it harder to take down Kingdra, and a good card for stadium wars. I would also include two seadra, in exchange for taking out a Skyla and a candy. In matchups like seismatoad, or vespiqueen vileplume, you are kinda screwed. Another thing that is scary is espeon. Once you evolve, that's great, but it's attack de Evolves all of your pokemon and puts the highest stage in your hand. You don't have infinite rare candies, so you could benefit from some seadra. I would also take out the 3 energies retrievals because you already have 2 fisherman in the deck.

 

[GA_Dyno]

Awesome feedback!

There is something I don't understand. What is the point with Archie since Kingdra is not Water Type ?

Yes you are right. There is no point in having this card (For some reason I keep thinking Kingdra is water) I'll probably take it out for a Seadra.

I spent time testing the deck back when Kingdra first came out and loved it. If I was to build it again now I wound suggest running either Manetric EX or Miltank. Both work ok at the beginning and both use very few energy. I would also suggest running Double dragon energy as it helps when you come across hammers being able to set-up a Kingdra instantly. I feel you could probably drop the healing scarfs for muscle bands as most thing one shot the Kingdra anyway. The last point I will say is that if you go up against Toad decks its an auto loss with this deck list. I would suggest dropping a rare candy or 2 for Seadra. Hope this helps in some way.

Thanks for the great feedback. Couple thoughts to help discuss further --

- Miltank is a good idea. Wouldn't it push me back a turn though since I'd have to add an energy onto him instead of Horsea turn 1? Plus if I dont land a Horsea turn 1 it kinda puts me in a hole.
- Manetric EX - Hmm I've never actually used Manetric. Can you explain how he works in the meta?
-Double Dragon Energy - I can not get the energy back when I discard it to attack with Fisherman / Retrieval. Plus special energies are more at risk vs Xerosic, Enchanted Hammers, Assault Vest, Etc. Atleast I have the 50-50 chance with crushing hammers. If I keep the card in my hand, it would be a great way to play it as a backup if I do get hammered or Grunt'd.

I'm not too sure... Maybe he meant seadra so he wouldn't have to deal with candy?
Here's my changes and explanations below
-3 Battle comressor
-1 skyla
-1 rare candy
-3 energy retrieval

+3 double dragon energy
+2 seadra
+3 training centers

This deck is certainly one of the most interesting I've seen in a while. Why don't you run any double dragon energy? It it a good card to have in here, because you won't always have the chance to get two energies in your hand. It can be a really good top deck at times. If I were making this list I would also include a stadium. I'm not sure why you have the 4 compressors, but I would scrap 3 and add 3 training centers. They give Kingdra 30 more hp incase you didn't know. It's a good card to make it harder to take down Kingdra, and a good card for stadium wars. I would also include two seadra, in exchange for taking out a Skyla and a candy. In matchups like seismatoad, or vespiqueen vileplume, you are kinda screwed. Another thing that is scary is espeon. Once you evolve, that's great, but it's attack de Evolves all of your pokemon and puts the highest stage in your hand. You don't have infinite rare candies, so you could benefit from some seadra. I would also take out the 3 energies retrievals because you already have 2 fisherman in the deck.

Double Dragon Energy - Same reason as above ^ I havnt really had a big problem with hammers though. I can always Grunt back and we'd both be down a turn for energies.
Compressor - Since I dont run Professor's Letter, I plan on discarding all my energies asap so I can get them back via fisherman and Energy Retrieval. This deck is not consistent if I rely on top decking energies (3 by turn 2 + Kingdra + Rare Candy + Muscle band) Also I like discarding some supporters so I can pull them whenever I need with VS Seeker. I see it as I'm more likely to draw a VS seeker (4) than I am to draw the exact supporter I need that turn.
Training Center - I've debated over Training Center since Kingdra is so frail, your second opinion makes me want to actually test it. Could help against Lugia EX, Greninja (with Muscle Band) and Mewtwo EX.

You bring up a very good point about Toad, Plume, and Espy. I really don't know how I would deal with that. Perhaps Grunt the DCE off Toad. But if they have another that will not work. I guess I will have to run a Seadra or 2 just because of this.


Things that might help to discuss:

1) Does anyone know if Growth can be stopped? This wouldn't count as an ability to be stopped by Hex Maniac or Garbador?

2) It might be a problem that I only run a 4-4 line, but I do not want to add any more basics since I want to start with Horsea. Does anyone know of a good stage 1 or stage 2 I could perhaps use in this deck using Maxie's or preferable Archie's?


Again, thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion.

 

[TheLunaticHypno]

Awesome feedback!



Yes you are right. There is no point in having this card (For some reason I keep thinking Kingdra is water) I'll probably take it out for a Seadra.




Thanks for the great feedback. Couple thoughts to help discuss further --

- Miltank is a good idea. Wouldn't it push me back a turn though since I'd have to add an energy onto him instead of Horsea turn 1? Plus if I dont land a Horsea turn 1 it kinda puts me in a hole.
- Manetric EX - Hmm I've never actually used Manetric. Can you explain how he works in the meta?
-Double Dragon Energy - I can not get the energy back when I discard it to attack with Fisherman / Retrieval. Plus special energies are more at risk vs Xerosic, Enchanted Hammers, Assault Vest, Etc. Atleast I have the 50-50 chance with crushing hammers. If I keep the card in my hand, it would be a great way to play it as a backup if I do get hammered or Grunt'd.




Double Dragon Energy - Same reason as above ^ I havnt really had a big problem with hammers though. I can always Grunt back and we'd both be down a turn for energies.
Compressor - Since I dont run Professor's Letter, I plan on discarding all my energies asap so I can get them back via fisherman and Energy Retrieval. This deck is not consistent if I rely on top decking energies (3 by turn 2 + Kingdra + Rare Candy + Muscle band) Also I like discarding some supporters so I can pull them whenever I need with VS Seeker. I see it as I'm more likely to draw a VS seeker (4) than I am to draw the exact supporter I need that turn.
Training Center - I've debated over Training Center since Kingdra is so frail, your second opinion makes me want to actually test it. Could help against Lugia EX, Greninja (with Muscle Band) and Mewtwo EX.

You bring up a very good point about Toad, Plume, and Espy. I really don't know how I would deal with that. Perhaps Grunt the DCE off Toad. But if they have another that will not work. I guess I will have to run a Seadra or 2 just because of this.


Things that might help to discuss:

1) Does anyone know if Growth can be stopped? This wouldn't count as an ability to be stopped by Hex Maniac or Garbador?

2) It might be a problem that I only run a 4-4 line, but I do not want to add any more basics since I want to start with Horsea. Does anyone know of a good stage 1 or stage 2 I could perhaps use in this deck using Maxie's or preferable Archie's?


Again, thanks everyone for contributing to the discussion.

Glad to have helped

 

[Aeter]

Awesome feedback!


1) Does anyone know if Growth can be stopped? This wouldn't count as an ability to be stopped by Hex Maniac or Garbador?

2) It might be a problem that I only run a 4-4 line, but I do not want to add any more basics since I want to start with Horsea. Does anyone know of a good stage 1 or stage 2 I could perhaps use in this deck using Maxie's or preferable Archie's?

1) Alpha Growth is an Ancient Trait, it is totally unstoppable as far as I know. Hex Maniac, Garbodor and anything about abilities can't shut it down.

2) Maybe you could try an Archie with Octillery for consistent draw (which could help not being dependant of a Battle Compressor/Energy Retrieval search engine in case of item lock). You could also pair it with Swampert ? There's some synergy with Octillery, allowing you to get any card you need, and he could also serve as a backup attacker (he has Alpha Growth too).

 

[GA_Dyno]

1) Alpha Growth is an Ancient Trait, it is totally unstoppable as far as I know. Hex Maniac, Garbodor and anything about abilities can't shut it down.

2) Maybe you could try an Archie with Octillery for consistent draw (which could help not being dependant of a Battle Compressor/Energy Retrieval search engine in case of item lock). You could also pair it with Swampert ? There's some synergy with Octillery, allowing you to get any card you need, and he could also serve as a backup attacker (he has Alpha Growth too).

Thanks for the input.

Yeah I think I'm going to go ahead and put Octillery into the deck along with an Archie's. I've wanted to put Shaymin into the deck but don't want the 1/5 risk of getting him as a starter. This might help make the deck a little more consistent with drawing cards.


ALSO I have edited the deck since and after playing nonstop and getting advice from locals, I have a revised deck list that is still being tested:

Pokémon: 10

• 4 Horsea (PC 30)
• 4 Kingdra (PC 108)
• 1 Seadra
• 1 Octillery

Trainers/Supporters/Stadiums: 42

• 4 VS Seeker
• 4 Trainers' Mail
• 2 Battle Compressor
• 4 Energy Retrieval
• 1 Professor's Letter
• 4 Rare Candy
• 4 Ultra Ball
• 1 Dive Ball
• 1 Super Rod
• 1 Fisherman
• 1 Teammates
• 1 Archie's Ace in the Hole
• 2 Giovanni's Scheme
• 2 Lysandre
• 2 Skyla
• 3 Professor Sycamore
• 2 Team Flare Grunts
• 3 Muscle Band

Energy: 8

• 4 Water Energy
• 3 Electric Energy
• 1 Dragon Energy - Don't get your hopes up people. I am reluctant to run Dragon Energy in this deck, but after SOOO many suggests here and locally, I figured it's worth testing. I've tested 2 and it doesn't seem to be working well. I have backed down to 1 and still giving it a shot for all you nice folks that take the time to give your input <3 I don't think it will be here for long though.

 

[Scrafty'sMinion]

This was my first list for Kingdra: http://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/dragon-ballista-kingdra-black-kyurem-ex.122488/

 

[Danglesmcjangles]

Has anyone brought up brigette? you could get all four horses out turn one, or even one remoraid to get octillery for draw power. Something to consider.

 

[GA_Dyno]

Brigette is an idea, but I doubt I'll need 4 Horseas turn 1. It's looking like I need to either Sycamore or Skyla turn 1 in order to get the cards I need to attack for 170 turn 2.

 

[bbninjas]

From this list...

The main thing I can see your deck having issues with is later in the game, when you have low hands. I think having a more solid Octillery line could be really helpful with this, as well as a few Puzzle of Time.

-1 Archie (I see no point running an Archie, as you could simply play a Remoraid or two, and get it out easier.)
-2 Battle Compressor (I'm a bit two-minded about this suggestion. I do think the space could be used better, though.)
-2 Team Flare Grunt (Since your deck doesn't aim at taking 2-hit KOs or slowing your opponent right down, I don't think you'd need these, and instead should better focus on consistency. Besides, you've got enough supporters you want to be using more often than this (i.e. Giovanni, Teammates, Lysandre (on the Shaymin), Sycamore and the like).)
-1 Ultra Ball (Ultra Ball finds 4 cards at a cost and Dive Ball finds 4 to 8 cards for free. I personally would recommend going 3 Ultra Ball, 2/3 Dive Ball, because it should net you more resources).
-1 Energy Retrieval (Also two-minded with this suggestion, as it's taking away some consistency, however this could be remedied with something like Puzzle of Time or Octillery. You do have about 10 sets of two Energy providing you use all your resources to the fullest anyways, and you should only need 6 tops.)
-1 Rare Candy (Once again, also two-minded. Do you actually need 4? I'm really unsure about this one, but I think having Octillery/Puzzle of Time in there is more important.)

+2 Remoraid (Major consistency booster w/Octillery)
+1 Octillery (Consistency booster)
+4 Puzzle of Time (Lots more consistency - especially useful later game + with the amount of Skyla you have.)
+1 Dive Ball (To replace the Ultra Ball)

In regards to the DDE, I think running a single copy would be good, at least. The advantage it has is that you can attach a DDE + another Energy (even another DDE), to make you less reliant on having two Energy in your hand each turn. If you go with the full four of these, you could have a massive consistency boost (play these and discard them subsequently), however it would require reworking your deck a little; perhaps taking out some combination of a second Energy Retrieval, a [W] Energy, a Giovanni, a Kingdra, a Lysandre or a Trainer's Mail.

As another thing, running a copy or two of a Miltank would be very helpful against non-EX decks such as Night March and Vespiquen, which your deck will struggle a lot against.

I'd also normally recommend a Bridgette, however you really don't have the space for it in this deck.

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Awesome feedback!
1) Does anyone know if Growth can be stopped? This wouldn't count as an ability to be stopped by Hex Maniac or Garbador?

2) It might be a problem that I only run a 4-4 line, but I do not want to add any more basics since I want to start with Horsea. Does anyone know of a good stage 1 or stage 2 I could perhaps use in this deck using Maxie's or preferable Archie's?

1. To my knowledge, nothing affects (i.e., 'turn off") Ancient Traits; these are always "on."

2. With only 4 Basic Pokémon in your deck, chances are you will mulligan 4+ times a game giving your opponent "many" extra cards early game. This risk, as a result, will place your opponent in a very advantageous position. I'd suggest 2-3 Judge (replacing the 2 Team Flare Grunt and 1 Giovanni's Scheme) to help mitigate the risk.

Lastly, will 1 Fisherman suffice? Fisherman, it seems, is critical to your deck's success. I'd suggest running 2, because should your only 1 be prized, you are at a disadvantage.

 

[GA_Dyno]

From this list...

The main thing I can see your deck having issues with is later in the game, when you have low hands. I think having a more solid Octillery line could be really helpful with this, as well as a few Puzzle of Time.

-1 Archie (I see no point running an Archie, as you could simply play a Remoraid or two, and get it out easier.)
-2 Battle Compressor (I'm a bit two-minded about this suggestion. I do think the space could be used better, though.)
-2 Team Flare Grunt (Since your deck doesn't aim at taking 2-hit KOs or slowing your opponent right down, I don't think you'd need these, and instead should better focus on consistency. Besides, you've got enough supporters you want to be using more often than this (i.e. Giovanni, Teammates, Lysandre (on the Shaymin), Sycamore and the like).)
-1 Ultra Ball (Ultra Ball finds 4 cards at a cost and Dive Ball finds 4 to 8 cards for free. I personally would recommend going 3 Ultra Ball, 2/3 Dive Ball, because it should net you more resources).
-1 Energy Retrieval (Also two-minded with this suggestion, as it's taking away some consistency, however this could be remedied with something like Puzzle of Time or Octillery. You do have about 10 sets of two Energy providing you use all your resources to the fullest anyways, and you should only need 6 tops.)
-1 Rare Candy (Once again, also two-minded. Do you actually need 4? I'm really unsure about this one, but I think having Octillery/Puzzle of Time in there is more important.)

+2 Remoraid (Major consistency booster w/Octillery)
+1 Octillery (Consistency booster)
+4 Puzzle of Time (Lots more consistency - especially useful later game + with the amount of Skyla you have.)
+1 Dive Ball (To replace the Ultra Ball)

In regards to the DDE, I think running a single copy would be good, at least. The advantage it has is that you can attach a DDE + another Energy (even another DDE), to make you less reliant on having two Energy in your hand each turn. If you go with the full four of these, you could have a massive consistency boost (play these and discard them subsequently), however it would require reworking your deck a little; perhaps taking out some combination of a second Energy Retrieval, a [W] Energy, a Giovanni, a Kingdra, a Lysandre or a Trainer's Mail.

As another thing, running a copy or two of a Miltank would be very helpful against non-EX decks such as Night March and Vespiquen, which your deck will struggle a lot against.

I'd also normally recommend a Bridgette, however you really don't have the space for it in this deck.

Amazing advice thank you. I tried archie's and octil just so I can guarantee a Horsea start, but it simply did not work. I will be testing remoraid + octil soon. Currently added 1 Shaymin into the deck in order to help with draws and basics at start.

I do not agree with taking out energy retrievals since my deck is based around discarding 2 energies every turn and 1 energy retrieval = a free attack. My problem with DDE is that I cant retrieve it, but there has been times where I have gotten Grunted and lost a turn because of that. I cant find a way of consistently keeping a DDE in my hand without having to Sycamore it away. I will want to test out this octil strat to not rely on sycamore - more

Puzzle of time - interesting since I've never used it in any of my decks. I hear nothing but good things about it.

1. To my knowledge, nothing affects (i.e., 'turn off") Ancient Traits; these are always "on."

2. With only 4 Basic Pokémon in your deck, chances are you will mulligan 4+ times a game giving your opponent "many" extra cards early game. This risk, as a result, will place your opponent in a very advantageous position. I'd suggest 2-3 Judge (replacing the 2 Team Flare Grunt and 1 Giovanni's Scheme) to help mitigate the risk.

Lastly, will 1 Fisherman suffice? Fisherman, it seems, is critical to your deck's success. I'd suggest running 2, because should your only 1 be prized, you are at a disadvantage.

Its an idea to keep in mind. I will see how my deck will work with subing grunts for octil first then try this route. 1 fisherman seems to be doing fine for me right now especially since I run 4 energy retrievals, 1 letter, and kingdra's 1cl attack lets me search for 4 energies at the start if I cant attack get 3 energies on him by turn 2.


Thanks again for the great advice. I will be making a post updating how this deck is evolving with some of the suggested changes in mind.