P!P/Rules Judge Decisions

TheSceptileMaster

TheSceptileMaster

Gastrodon ate my cake
Member
Hey fellow Beachers.
I just went to Philly Regionals as a Senior and learned of something interesting. A player was DQ'd for a very complex situation. He had written only 56 cards on his deck list, and played 4 Dark Patch without noting them. It was round 6 with a record of 4-0-1 ( his 6th game was not complete) for him, a very good one indeed. Judges realized this situation and made him replace the Dark Patch with Energy cards. However, after round 6, he went to the bathroom and switched these energy back in for the Dark Patch. The judges had been alerted of this and he was disqualified.

People have then speculated if he cheated in the past against other competitors (which I don't believe due to the difficulty and work in cheating there). I have been told this by multiple people, but had not see this play out myself, so I may be incorrect. I would like to know if you feel the judges were harsh or did the right thing (I feel a DQ was proper).

And to the mods (and readers to), in no way do I mean this as a argument, or insulting of the player, I just am asking for an opinion of the situation.
 
Edited to remove the player's name.

The DQ was completely justified in the situation you described.
 
A DQ is the correct penalty. This is cheating because the player was altering his deck during the tournament after the judges updated the decklist to include 60 cards. Play! Pokemon's rules are very clear in stating that an incomplete decklist is to be updated by by adding Basic Energy of the player's choice so that it contains 60 cards/ The player in question should have reviewed his decklist before turning it in. This is precisely why pre-tournament deck checks are offered -- to catch issues like this at a point where no penalty has to be issued and the player can fix the problem freely. Once the tournament begins there is no course of action other than an Illegal Decklist penalty. If the player decides to go against this, it is deliberate curbing of the rules and thus a form of cheating. The only penalty for cheating is disqualification. It is the player's fault for not either checking his decklist himself or having a judge do it before turning it in. In a situation such as this, where the player was told to do something and then did something else, their past record shouldn't be considered. This isn't a "he said she said" type of situation where a judge is called to resolve an issue based only on what they have been told.
 
My Little Keldeo said:
A DQ is the correct penalty. This is cheating because the player was altering his deck during the tournament after the judges updated the decklist to include 60 cards. Play! Pokemon's rules are very clear in stating that an incomplete decklist is to be updated by by adding Basic Energy of the player's choice so that it contains 60 cards/ The player in question should have reviewed his decklist before turning it in. This is precisely why pre-tournament deck checks are offered -- to catch issues like this at a point where no penalty has to be issued and the player can fix the problem freely. Once the tournament begins there is no course of action other than an Illegal Decklist penalty. If the player decides to go against this, it is deliberate curbing of the rules and thus a form of cheating. The only penalty for cheating is disqualification. It is the player's fault for not either checking his decklist himself or having a judge do it before turning it in. In a situation such as this, where the player was told to do something and then did something else, their past record shouldn't be considered. This isn't a "he said she said" type of situation where a judge is called to resolve an issue based only on what they have been told.
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I very well understand that we should have deck checks very early. I had been playing a practice game before the event started and realized there was an issue in my list. I had include 2 regular art Shaymin EX ROS instead of one regular art and one full art. I had taken my list and deck to deck check and the issue was resolved. The judge noted that it was really good to catch it before play began, or I may have had a big penalty
 
TheSceptileMaster said:
I would like to know if you feel the judges were harsh or did the right thing
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I am surprised you are asking this considering the scenario you have described. Whether the incomplete decklist was a mistake or not, when it was corrected he literally went out of his way to deceive everyone. This isn't something you can attribute to any form of misinterpretation. Of course the punishment was just.
 
Yeah I agree with judges. It's just like if you put down like only 40 cards on your list, and each round you edit your list to beat a certain opponent. That's cheating, so disqualify them right then and there.
 
EEVILMURRAY said:
I am surprised you are asking this considering the scenario you have described. Whether the incomplete decklist was a mistake or not, when it was corrected he literally went out of his way to deceive everyone. This isn't something you can attribute to any form of misinterpretation. Of course the punishment was just.
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I am asking this since people said to me the punishment and the player should be given all losses and his opponents wins against the player in question. I want to know if people here have any arguments against the penalty
 
Can't believe he'd do something like that. chances are he'd 'forget' some cards and purposely put certain ones to gain an advantage
 
TheSceptileMaster said:
I am asking this since people said to me the punishment and the player should be given all losses and his opponents wins against the player in question. I want to know if people here have any arguments against the penalty
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This kind of penalty doesn't exist in Pokemon. If an illegal deck is discovered during a game it's a game loss, but something found after the fact won't alter results from earlier in the day.
 
Oh thanks for telling me. I don't know why my friend said it then lol. But for anybody replying to the thread, please don't question me asking the question I am asking. I want to know exactly why a DQ is justified. I know the actions were considered cheating, but I want the explanation like My Little Keldeo gave
 
It is worth noting @TheSceptileMaster, that a dq/drop affects ELO so that the person in question is automatically given the record of 0-X-0 from the tournament. So, in a way, they were punished by getting all losses, but you cannot change the opponents records in this way.
 
TheSceptileMaster said:
I am asking this since people said to me the punishment and the player should be given all losses and his opponents wins against the player in question. I want to know if people here have any arguments against the penalty
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As delightful as that would be - It would royally screw up everyone's resistance and thus would've resulted in different pairings in retrospect. There's no way that would be fair on the other players.
 
The reason that is a DQ is because he had a Legal Deck Illegal deck list.
(dark patch not on the list) in this case yes it does go to basic energies, then switching them back in the bathroom makes it a
legal deck, illegal deck list plus he changed his deck on purpose so yes this is a DQ
 
I think I'm gonna need this clearing up:
homeofmew said:
The reason that is a DQ is because he had a Legal Deck Illegal deck list.
(dark patch not on the list) in this case yes it does go to basic energies,
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If he's getting a DQ for a legal deck illegal deck list, why would it go to basic energies? He's just been kicked out of the tournament.
homeofmew said:
then switching them back in the bathroom makes it a
legal deck, illegal deck list plus he changed his deck on purpose so yes this is a DQ
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Brushing aside the first question - If the deck list was amended to include 4 extra energies, how does switching them back to cards which were never on the deck list to begin with make it a legal deck?
 
EEVILMURRAY said:
I think I'm gonna need this clearing up:

If he's getting a DQ for a legal deck illegal deck list, why would it go to basic energies? He's just been kicked out of the tournament.

Brushing aside the first question - If the deck list was amended to include 4 extra energies, how does switching them back to cards which were never on the deck list to begin with make it a legal deck?
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He got DQed because he switched his deck after the judge "fixed" it that's literally why.
So here's what happened he didn't write dark patch on the deck list which is fine people do this all the time.
The correct judge move is to put energy on the deck list (might be a game loss if not in between rounds)
The basic Energies were put in, THEN HE CHANGED them. That's a DQ because that's considered cheating.
 
homeofmew said:
He got DQed because he switched his deck after the judge "fixed" it that's literally why.
So here's what happened he didn't write dark patch on the deck list which is fine people do this all the time.
The correct judge move is to put energy on the deck list (might be a game loss if not in between rounds)
The basic Energies were put in, THEN HE CHANGED them. That's a DQ because that's considered cheating.
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A delightfully more accurate description of events, however it does not correlate to what you said previously:

homeofmew said:
The reason that is a DQ is because he had a Legal Deck Illegal deck list.
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What this comes across as: "He got disqualified because his deck was legal and his deck list was illegal."
As opposed to: "He got disqualified for deliberately altering his deck after judges had made changes."

Also:
homeofmew said:
in this case yes it does go to basic energies, then switching them back in the bathroom makes it a
legal deck
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What this comes across as: "Basic energies were substituted but switching them back in the bathroom makes it a legal deck"
As opposed to: "Basic energies were substituted but switching them back in the bathroom makes it an illegal deck"

I'm sure you can see the confusion here.
 
EEVILMURRAY said:
A delightfully more accurate description of events, however it does not correlate to what you said previously:


What this comes across as: "He got disqualified because his deck was legal and his deck list was illegal."
As opposed to: "He got disqualified for deliberately altering his deck after judges had made changes."

Also:

What this comes across as: "Basic energies were substituted but switching them back in the bathroom makes it a legal deck"
As opposed to: "Basic energies were substituted but switching them back in the bathroom makes it an illegal deck"

I'm sure you can see the confusion here.
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Legal Deck = a deck that can be legal,
Illegal deck = a deck that can not be legal, ie has lysandres trump card in it.
 
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