Discussion Is the paywall in Competitive Pokemon unhealthy?

crowfeather4

crowfeather4

R.I.P. Night March
Member
This is something I have thought about, and it bugs me a bit about the game. At the current moment, to do good at a standard Pokémon Tournament, one will need to have Shaymin EX. Other necessities are VS Seekers and at times Trainer's Mail. Most other times, a player will need expensive EX's, and costly max Elixirs. All these cards add up to a lot of money, and it can discourage new players from starting the game. At a league, a new player with a theme deck might decide not to play the game anymore after getting shot down in three turns by Turbo Dark, or an excited kid can have his spirit crushed after losing at a League Challenge with a deck he made on his own. This pay wall can really discourage people from playing the game, as not everybody has $150+ dollars they can drop to get a deck to play with, one that will give them a chance at a tournament. The quick meta shift can also be hard for players. After spending a lot of money on a deck, a player can be devastated to learn that X new card ruins its viability, and that the deck they just invested money in is obsolete. The cost factor can also deter players from enjoying the cards. From experience, I know it can be hard to enjoy getting an EX or a holo from a pack, knowing that competitively it stands no chance. Overall this issue bugs me, and I wish that Pokémon would help some of these issues go away.

EDIT: Whoops, I forgot to clarify. This think was more about the cost for Juniors and Seniors, as I know for a Master with a job, $200 is not a lot. For a 4th, 5th, or 6th grader though, they might not have the money to invest.
 
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Unfortunately, this isn't something that's even remotely easy to fix. Every TCG, even online ones, will fall into being a money sink because of the nature of competitive games. "True balance" is something that's just not attainable, cuz eventually the powerful combinations will rise to the top, and making it so that every card and every card combination could possibly be viable is impossible.

Also, if you want to get down to it, pokemon is probably the cheapest TCG on the market. Looking at pokegoldfish, most pokemon decks will run about $150-200ish, with the bulk of that price including staple trainers and shaymins. Meanwhile in Magic, a top tier deck generally averages from $150-300. And Yugioh is freakin' absurd, with decks potentially running over 1000 dollars. And some cards averaging out to $187 per pop. Not to mention Hearthstone, which more or less requires you to buy packs so you can get dust to play competitively.

In essence, just due to the nature of TCGs, money is always going to be a barrier. Is it unfortunate? Yeah, a little. But it's something that's more or less unavoidable.
 
It's quite funny for me to read, as this basically is why I'm not having a tournament level deck IRL, and just have one in TCGO.

I'm basically playing TCG with friends, and am willing to invest some money. Buying a few GX cards and spending some money on them is no problem to me. But spending like 50 dollars (or euro's here ;)) for trainer cards and such is the part where I'm out, especially if I would like to have multiple decks.

And for most decks, the price of Shaymin Ex is keeping me away from buying as well; 3 Shaymin Ex in your deck is nothing unusual, but will cost you like 100 dollar already.

So would be great to see a reprint of Shaymin and such in Best of XY, might drop the price a little, and also great if they reprint staples like VS Seeker, or put such trainers in for example Battle Arena Decks, which I have bought (Keldeo / Rayquaza), or will buy (Kyurem).
 
lukas2aces said:
It's quite funny for me to read, as this basically is why I'm not having a tournament level deck IRL, and just have one in TCGO.

I'm basically playing TCG with friends, and am willing to invest some money. Buying a few GX cards and spending some money on them is no problem to me. But spending like 50 dollars (or euro's here ;)) for trainer cards and such is the part where I'm out, especially if I would like to have multiple decks.

And for most decks, the price of Shaymin Ex is keeping me away from buying as well; 3 Shaymin Ex in your deck is nothing unusual, but will cost you like 100 dollar already.

So would be great to see a reprint of Shaymin and such in Best of XY, might drop the price a little, and also great if they reprint staples like VS Seeker, or put such trainers in for example Battle Arena Decks, which I have bought (Keldeo / Rayquaza), or will buy (Kyurem).
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You honestly don't want a Shaymin-EX reprint. It will be a secret rare, which is gonna cost a ton of cash first of all. So, the regular art Shaymin-EX might drop from current $51.99 to $44.99? Not a huge difference. Then, it's gonna be standard legal for another 2 years, which would ultimately be unhealthy for the people who aren't willing to put up the cash for them.
 
In the grand scheme of CCGs, Pokemon's "paywall" is quite miniscule. All of the money cards you generally see in T1 decks (1 or 2 Shaymin, 4 Trainer's Mail, 3-4 Sycamore, 2-4 N, 4 Vs Seeker, 4 Ultra Ball) are splashable into any deck, so you really only need to shell out a single time for them, and move them around as necessary. Additionally, to purchase this entire set you're looking at < $200 USD, which is very reasonable among comparable games. There is still a goodly amount of time until rotation (4+ months), we don't really know what the rotation is going to be, nor whether any of these are going to get reprints (the SR Shaymin is waiting in the wings, but it's not clear when we'll get it.) Even if they rotate, these will all be completely viable in Expanded, so they're not anywhere near useless long term.

If you're serious about putting together a competitive deck, I'm afraid your only real option is to pay the price of admission, and be thankful you're not addicted to a much more expensive game :)
 
True. Therefore I am buying Battle Arena Decks for example, basically because they are better than theme decks and also provide good staple trainers. And true about Shaymin Ex, I actually wouldn't mind if Shaymin would be out of Standard soon, given the fact that players play sometimes half of their deck in the first turn... Sometimes it looks like overkill for me.

For now, TCG in real life is with friends, with decks with a few Ex/Gx cards etc., and online I do like to get top decks. Maybe in the future when a nice deck comes by and I already would have most of the trainers, I will make one or two competitive deck(s) in real life as well.
 
All great comments and although the price of PTCG is relatively cheap compared to other games. The original post was regarding young children who show up at a tournament and get obliterated in a couple of turns. My son and I have attended two pre-release tournaments (steam siege and guardians rising) in which he did extremely well, winning the most recent and finishing second in steam siege. After the GR prerelease he came home and began building a deck with his guardians rising cards combined with other ones and wanted to go more regularly to play. I play online a lot and although I don't know what decks are common in my area I do know that he would have lost badly with the cards we have. We have mostly collected so we have a few of these and a few of those etc. We have since gone out and built around the volcanion ex cards we have (still costing me $80).

He had asked me if there are theme deck tournaments, which I don't think there are. (Not sure if anyone could clarify). I think theme deck tournaments would be a good way to introduce new players to the card game where most players would have similar decks...ie not facing darkrai or decidueye etc.

In regards to Shaymin comments, can't wait for it go expanded...cost is even outrageous online and I don't have one. Although I will miss dragging it up to active as my final KO to win.
 
I can't really see a paywall in Pokemon outside of buying the actual pack(s) and no one needs to have a deck full of UR cards. Most competitive cards are a buck to get and can cycle between decks and most EX/GX Pokemon are competitive in their own way and can hold their own so entry to the game is very low. On top of this, most players at league are willing to just give away staples if they have a surplus of them (at least I am).

TPC/i are also always reprinting cards or placing them in battle decks for 40 bucks, which is a fair price for competitive cards and the Expanded format (even though I hate it) keeps them around longer so players who have less than the others can keep their cards and build a collection. You don't need a Shaymin because you have Octillery, which is a two dollar card. Assuming the Tapu become big, they may get a tin promo, which is 20 bucks plus 4 packs.
 
Rindon said:
All great comments and although the price of PTCG is relatively cheap compared to other games. The original post was regarding young children who show up at a tournament and get obliterated in a couple of turns. My son and I have attended two pre-release tournaments (steam siege and guardians rising) in which he did extremely well, winning the most recent and finishing second in steam siege. After the GR prerelease he came home and began building a deck with his guardians rising cards combined with other ones and wanted to go more regularly to play. I play online a lot and although I don't know what decks are common in my area I do know that he would have lost badly with the cards we have. We have mostly collected so we have a few of these and a few of those etc. We have since gone out and built around the volcanion ex cards we have (still costing me $80).

He had asked me if there are theme deck tournaments, which I don't think there are. (Not sure if anyone could clarify). I think theme deck tournaments would be a good way to introduce new players to the card game where most players would have similar decks...ie not facing darkrai or decidueye etc.

In regards to Shaymin comments, can't wait for it go expanded...cost is even outrageous online and I don't have one. Although I will miss dragging it up to active as my final KO to win.
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Shaymin aren't necessary for every deck though. You can build Greninja (either standard or expanded) for roughly 100 dollars and that deck will do fine in literally any tournament. Yeah, there are decks that crush it, but that is true of every deck.

Another option that is on the cheap end of the scale would be Quad Lapras. No Shaymins. All control. Lapras GX itself is only roughly 4 dollars each. I think you could build that deck for less than 100 dollars and that deck might compete for best deck in the standard format with Decidueye Vileplume now that Aqua Patch has dropped.

Both of these decks are good ones for a younger player to pick up because they can be taught with relative ease. You don't need to go into the inner workings of the strategies to make either effective.

I am not saying 100 dollars is cheap, but I am saying that if you want to build a deck that can compete in a tournament it can be done without spending 90-100 dollars for just two Shaymins (the lowest count for most decks) and most of the staple trainer cards can be swapped into and out of any deck in either standard or expanded once they have been acquired.

Edit: I can provide a list for either of those decks if you are interested :)
 
Th
Fayld said:
Shaymin aren't necessary for every deck though. You can build Greninja (either standard or expanded) for roughly 100 dollars and that deck will do fine in literally any tournament. Yeah, there are decks that crush it, but that is true of every deck.

Another option that is on the cheap end of the scale would be Quad Lapras. No Shaymins. All control. Lapras GX itself is only roughly 4 dollars each. I think you could build that deck for less than 100 dollars and that deck might compete for best deck in the standard format with Decidueye Vileplume now that Aqua Patch has dropped.

Both of these decks are good ones for a younger player to pick up because they can be taught with relative ease. You don't need to go into the inner workings of the strategies to make either effective.

I am not saying 100 dollars is cheap, but I am saying that if you want to build a deck that can compete in a tournament it can be done without spending 90-100 dollars for just two Shaymins (the lowest count for most decks) and most of the staple trainer cards can be swapped into and out of any deck in either standard or expanded once they have been acquired.

Edit: I can provide a list for either of those decks if you are interested :)
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Thank you for the offer. I have been playing with a quad lapras deck online and think I have pretty good idea on cards. My biggest problem is always the grass matchup though.
 
As a Senior who has been playing for about a year, I have managed to build a completely meta tier great Volcanion deck, with all of the staples you need such as VS Seeker and Shaymins for example- I even have a Tapu Lele GX now. But I agree- getting into the game was very discouraging, because I was crushed by good decks, and it took a lot of time and money to build a half decent deck (Mega Alakazam). The paywall is too high, but that will be changed next year- a much slower format without VS Seeker, Trainers Mail, and Shaymin, also easier to play in with the absence of Grass decks, and no Dark Dragon variants, or Mega Rayquaza!
 
Rindon said:
Th


Thank you for the offer. I have been playing with a quad lapras deck online and think I have pretty good idea on cards. My biggest problem is always the grass matchup though.
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I think your only real answer to Lurantis is Glaceon EX. I have always wondered why Quad Lapras didn't tech it TBH :)
 
The only paywall is Shaymin and Tapu Lele. I say this because of cards like Vespiquen, the new Garbodor, and the new Golisopod, and Night March, etc.,etc. These kinds of cards, imo, are better than the big tanky EXs/GXs because they out prize trade them. And guess what? A full playset of the new Garb will run you about ten dollars. A full playset of Vespiquens isn't even four. The paywall is ENTIRELY made up of cards like Tapu Lele, Shaymin, VS Seeker, Mega Rayquaza, etcetera. Sadly, that paywall is huge. A playset of Shaymins is 200$. A playset of Leles is also 200$. A playset of VS Seekers is 30$. Sadly, there will always be some kind of paywall in the TCG simply because of the way TCGs work. Oh well. :/
 
I feel that the paywall for this game a very low considering where the money is focused: staple cards that will be good in pretty much every deck. Cards like Shaymin EX, Tapu Lele GX, Vs Seeker, N, and others are the base for a wide range of decks. What this means is that initial ~$100 spent is good no matter which deck you want to play. This makes it a lot cheaper to switch your deck when it becomes outdated/boring as opposed to other decks.

Right now, the current price for a tiered Pokemon deck is about $150-250. This includes the Shaymins, Vs Seekers, and all those other pricey cards. If you want to switch from playing, say Volcanion EX to Turbo Darkrai then you have most of the expensive cards and only need ~$80 to switch.

The average price for a MTG deck in standard right now? $200-350. This includes cards that are key in that deck only with only some use outside of that. Want to go from a White/Black/Red Mardu Vehicles deck in MTG to a Green Black Delirium Deck? Aside from one play set of a card, you'll be buying the rest of the deck from scratch; costing you an additional ~$350 to switch.

Yes, this doesn't matter as much when looking at the budget of a child and their allowance since even $100 for one deck can be steep, but there are decks out there that can hold their own at a league against other decks for a relatively low price point. Decks like Golduck, Passimian/Mew, Greninja BREAK, Gyarados, and more can be both fun to play and easy on someone's wallet with some creativity.

On top of that, especially during expanded, the Battle Decks make an amazing entry point to playing. Picking up two of them and mashing them together is how my boyfriend and I got into playing the game, and $70 for two solid decks with staple trainers is a great deal.
 
FoolMeNever2 said:
Unfortunately, this isn't something that's even remotely easy to fix. Every TCG, even online ones, will fall into being a money sink because of the nature of competitive games. "True balance" is something that's just not attainable, cuz eventually the powerful combinations will rise to the top, and making it so that every card and every card combination could possibly be viable is impossible.

Also, if you want to get down to it, pokemon is probably the cheapest TCG on the market. Looking at pokegoldfish, most pokemon decks will run about $150-200ish, with the bulk of that price including staple trainers and shaymins. Meanwhile in Magic, a top tier deck generally averages from $150-300. And Yugioh is freakin' absurd, with decks potentially running over 1000 dollars. And some cards averaging out to $187 per pop. Not to mention Hearthstone, which more or less requires you to buy packs so you can get dust to play competitively.

In essence, just due to the nature of TCGs, money is always going to be a barrier. Is it unfortunate? Yeah, a little. But it's something that's more or less unavoidable.
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I don't think it's at all impractical to achieve "True Balance" as you call it. TPCi knows which cards are staples, and could make them readily available through league play. Additionally, I don't think the comparisons to other TCGs raise any valid points on this matter. The question is whether or not the paywall is healthy, not if it's a lesser of evils. I like to believe that being family oriented and inclusive is a core value of Pokemon as a franchise and the current and past states of the TCG do not reflect this. Realistically, most people don't have $200 of disposable income every quarter until they're in their 20s and have a job. This creates an environment where the majority of the active Pokemon fanbase's ability to participate competitively is contingent on their parents' income, and willingness to drop hundreds of dollars on a game. My guess is that the majority of forum players, and even people replying to this thread fall into either the "Under 20 whose parents are somewhat liberal with Christmas and Birthday money," "20something who works and spends a significant portion of their disposable income on Pokemon," or 'The 20/30/40something established adult who can afford things with aa salary." Now, I'm not criticizing any of those groups or saying that only those people exist in Pokemon, but the issue is that I think those individuals are disproportionately overrepresented.

I also realize that Pokemon is a business and that they're going to make decisions that prioritize revenue, but if we isolate the question of Pokemon TCG fostering a healthy and inclusive playing environment, the answer is no. Although Pokemon is notoriously secretive over sales data and business strategy, I have a hunch that they could actually increase revenue significantly by lowering the paywall. Franchises like Magic are more narrow in scope and have a primarily adult fanbase; in stark contrast, Pokemon has a presence in a myriad of mediums and commands a more youthful following. This presents an opportunity for scale that other TCGs cannot match. Expanding participation past the fractionally small part of the fanbase that currently plays competitively would more than compensate for a modest drop in cost. Additionally, it would give TPCi greater control over the market, taking away from third party resellers and facilitating liquidity of TCG products.

My final thought on the matter is that secret rares could be a vehicle to make my aforementioned ideology a reality. While excessive SRs are generally seen as a cash grab, they act as a cosmetic paywall that can supplement cash flow without serving as an entry barrier.

Will any of these things happen? Probably not. Precedence doesn't read kindly to the hopeful. That said, we as players shouldn't dwell complacently in the "not-as-bad-as-it-could-be." While Pokemon may not listen to our voice, they have no choice but to listen to our coin and I hope that the community will better organize and demand more out of the franchise they love so dearly.
 
Pay wall? Have you played Magic? Besides the cards that are the most expensive are usually the ones that fit in every deck. Tapu-Lele fits in any deck.
 
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