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Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

M

mr rizz

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I'm making a collection of decks from the first four sets (Base, Jungle, Fossil, Team Rocket), which is the same format used at the 2000 Queen Mary STS. I think this is a good format, so it would be cool to have the top tier decks sitting around all sleeved up and ready to play against each other.

I'm trying to not have overlap between characters. I know most decks used Scyther, but I think the breakdown of decks I have right now is pretty good without anything overlapping.

I think these decklists are pretty set, so I'm mainly looking for minor tweaks I may have overlooked or (more importantly) any archetypes from this era that you think should be included. Thanks.

1. Potpourri
Monsters:
2 Mewtwo (Promo)
2 Hitmonchan
2 Electabuzz
2 Ditto
1 Eevee (Promo)

Trainers:
4 Professor Oak
3 Bill
4 Computer Search
4 Item Finder
4 Energy Removal
4 Rocket Sneak Attack
1 Lass
4 Gust of Wind
4 Pluspower
3 Scoop Up
1 Energy Retrieval

Energy:
4 Rainbow
3 Fighting
3 Electric
2 Psychic
3 Double Colorless

Basically the evolved amalgamation of Haymaker/Sponge. Fast, efficient, great type coverage. The only change I can envision for this deck is somehow trying to fit x1 Super Energy Removal for the bad scenario Mewtwo vs. Wigglytuff.

2. Raindance
Monsters:
4 Squirtle
3 Blastoise
1 Dark Blastoise
4 Articuno
2 Lapras

Trainers:
3 Pokemon Trader
4 Pokemon Breeder
4 Bill
4 Professor Oak
4 Computer Search
4 Item Finder
3 Pluspower
1 Energy Retrieval

Energy:
19 Water

This is one of the weaker decks, but still worth including. I'm considering maybe dropping the 2 Lapras altogether for the massive Electabuzz weakness, but it helps fuel Pokemon Trader at least. The one Dark Blastoise is to be able to have someone who can do 70 without a Pluspower, mainly for killing Electabuzz. Open to any ideas for improvement on this deck.

3. Wigglytuff

Monsters: 4 Scyther
4 Jigglypuff
4 Wigglytuff
1 Squirtle (Rocket)
1 Machop (Rocket)
1 Ponyta (base)
1 Chansey

Trainers:
4 Professor Oak
4 Bill
4 Computer Search
4 Item Finder
4 Pluspower
3 Rocket Sneak Attack
3 Gust of Wind
1 Scoop Up
1 Nightly Garbage Run
1 Lass

Energy:
4 Double Colorless
4 Full Heal
3 Potion
4 Grass

Scyther protects Wigglytuff from Hitmonchan with his fighting resistance, and you have the rare space to fit Grass Energy to allow Sword Dance to actually trigger. This is probably the best deck of the group, as Wigglytuff is just so strong once it gets going. I suppose its power level is somewhat artificially restricted/balanced by not being able to run Ditto since I have them in the Potpourri deck instead.

4. Magmar Needs a Deck

Monster:
4 Magmar (Fossil)
4 Gastly (Jungle)
4 Haunter (Fossil)
2 Mr. Mime

Trainers:
4 Professor Oak
3 Bill
4 Computer Search
4 Item Finder
4 Energy Removal
2 Super Energy Removal
3 Gust of Wind
1 Scoop Up
1 Nightly Garbage Run
2 Energy Retrieval
2 Lass

Energy:
9 Fire
7 Psychic

Magmar could be used here or there with Wigglytuff or Potpourri, but since I'm trying to avoid using overlapping monsters in each deck I'd rather give him his own home. This deck has the highest variance with all the flipping from Haunter and Magmar, so I guess it is worthwhile to include in the group as a sort of wildcard. Mr. Mime is just filler because I couldn't think of anything else, but he walls Wigglytuff while you wait for Super Energy Removal at least. This deck was just tossed together off the top of my head, so it needs the most help. Was this a real archetype back in the day, and if so is there a good skeleton of it I can look at?

5. Wildcard Decks...

Should there be a Clefable deck? Clefable could also be the Magmar deck I guess, just change it to mono fire and remove the Haunter line for 8 Clefairy/Clefable.

I'd like to somehow get to six decks though, so I'm also considering a Dark Raichu deck. That would really be scraping the bottom of the barrel though...Raindance is already weak in this format so I can't imagine Dark Raichu winning a game. Plus it would need Electabuzz and Probably Scyther, though I could get around the self-imposed "no overlapping monsters" rule by making the Dark Raichu deck all Japanese. Except for Dark Raichu himself of course, since most of his appeal is the mythology surrounding his fame as the first ever secret card/first card designed by WOTC.

Anyway yeah, any of your thoughts about this project would be cool. Once the 4 or 6 decks are all sleeved up and stored in a box together, it will sorta be like a board game in that just anyone can grab a deck and play.

On a side note, if anyone knows where to get old school cards in bulk (I'd rather not pay 5 dollars + shipping one card at a time for old Blastoises and stuff), please let me know. I need like 20-30 Bill, Item Finder, Oak, etc.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

I think I have about 30 Bill from base set, base set 2, and legendary collection. your best bet for these cards is to trade on here, or post in the want to buy threads.

I would recommend a decking type deck with Magmar Fossil, Moltres Fossil, and Chansey Base set. using Chansey to tank (pokemon center to heal up) and Magmar to stall once chansey is no longer within saving abilities... discard all your energy attached to moltres to deck your opponent. energy retrieval is your friend here.

I forget the setup that my brother used to play with, but that is basically his deck. it was littered with energy removals, GoW, switch, super potion SSU, pokemon center, and the like. he also used Erikas to make the opponent draw a card too, thus making the decking process much faster.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

Rizz, this is something I've been doing for years, and think it's AWESOME that more people are playing this format.

Moltres Stall isn't really top tier, but it's not that bad. Haymakers murder it though.

Potpourri: Too much energy, no energy searches, the Eevee has no real purpose. If it's there to sponge run a singleton Chansey instead.

Raindance: Too much energy. I run 14. At the very least, swap 4 for energy searches to thin your deck. Same as above.

Wiggly: This is the one place energy search doesn't matter, but what's with the squirtle/machop/ponyta? Ditto is much more fun in here than in Haymaker.

Magmar: Magmar needs to be played in Big Man aka Arcanine, which you're not listing for some reason. Here's a rough skeleton:

Pokemon: 4x Growlithe 4x Arcanine 4x Magmar 2x Scyther
Trainers: 4x ER, 4x Bill, 4x Oak, 2x Search 2x IF 4x RSA 2x Lass 2x Gust 4x Trader 2x Scoop Up 4x Energy Search 2x Goop Gas
Energy: 4 DCE 8 Fire

Also, where's DAMAGE SWAP, one of the biggest decks in this format?

Pokemon: 4x Abra 2x Kadabra 4x Alakazam 4x Mr Mime 4x Chansey 2x Jigglypuff 2x Wigglytuff
Trainers: 4x Gambler 4x Pokemon Center fill in the staples as you wish. Dead cards aren't a big deal since you're stalling, keep the 4 oaks in.
Energy: 4x DCE 2-4x Psychic. Or cut the wiggly tech and run no energy stall (NES).
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

You enjoy this format the most too? Cool! Couple of things:

1- The Eeeve is a nice tech to get an easy kill on Dittos

2- I've found in my testing with Raindance that even 19 is cutting it close, as you often have to Oak before you have Blastoise out (meaning a lot of energy can hit the discard). Since Blastoise and Articuno both need a healthy amount of energy, I think 14 might be too low...and Energy Retrieval seems more valuable than Energy Search to me. Thinning the deck isn't so important when you have 4 Oak/4 Item Finder/4 Comp Search to draw 7 at will

3- The random 1 ofs in the Wigglytuff deck are just there to be cheeky, they can all try for some supereffective damage off a DCE. The theme of the deck is kind of "no colored energy required." You're right about Ditto, it SHOULD be in this deck, but a) I'm trying not to overlap monsters between decks and I gave Dittos to Potpourri (maybe you're right that I should give them to this deck instead though), and b) to be honest Wigglytuff is so much stronger than the other decks IMO that I wanted to sorta artificially tone down its power by giving it a somewhat suboptimal list with stuff like Ponyta.

4- I'm certainly intrigued by the Arcanine deck! However, I'm a bit skeptical that it can win very much. Was it actually an established archetype back in the day? It just seems to me that Arcanine needing 3 turns to build up an attack is too slow for this format. I will test this deck out ASAP though, I'd be thrilled if I was wrong and the Arcanine deck was a worthy contender. I tried making a Dark Raichu deck, and it was too slow with Raichu needing 3 energy to attack like Arcanine (and this was even with the Pikachu that searches out energy to make Raichu ready to attack on turn 2).

Thanks for your input, I hope we can talk more about this format since we are probably some of the few people still playing it!
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

Arcanine was very much an established archetype back in its day! It was somewhat rogue, but its matchups were quite solid, as it was able to lead off with 50-70hp basics, and set up reasonably quickly for a LOT more damage than haymaker could get. 2RR for 80 on Arcanine is very nice when you're also sitting on 100 hp. Some variants ran Charmeleon(s) in addition to or in place of Arcanine and teched in a couple of charizards for spike damage, but I didn't find it was worth it. Arcanine already does plenty.

Dark Raichu just doesn't do as much damage, and I'm not sure what you were running for starters. I generally run magmar and scyther in arcanine to have a solid early game. Before Rocket they ran Koffings to get out of mime locks.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

Brilliant.
Haymaker is still somewhat legal thanks to the PL reprints, which is hilarious.
We made my friend go to States with Haymaker last year.
Anyway, I like this idea.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

^^ did he use the reprint, base set, or the winner stamped promo? I think having winner hitmonchans in a haymaker would be awesome =p

what were the other cards used in the deck for this remake of haymaker?
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

Ok, I'm gonna give Arcanine a try! I'm still skeptical since he seems like a strictly worse version of Wigglytuff, but maybe the extra HP will come in more handy than I'm imagining.

I'm hopeful that it turns out well, because having a fire deck for the boxed set would be really cool.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

Rizz: Think of the extra damage, too. Plus the fact that gust of wind can generate free prizes fairly easily against Wiggly, especially for rain dance. Honestly, Wiggly is a vastly overrated deck, one I played for a while then decided to drop and teched a couple wigglys into my damage swap deck.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

Doesn't Wiggly do 60 though while Arcanine only does 50? Plus Wiggly can do it on turn two while the earliest Arcanine can do 50 is on turn 3.

I'm excited to try it out though, I'm gonna have a big testing session later this week and I hope I'm 100% wrong about Arcanine's usefulness.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

You're missing that cool other attack Arcanine's packing, called "Take Down". 2 fire and a DCE and suddenly stuff dies.

I admit that yes, Wiggly goes off a turn sooner, but remember this is a metagame where you're not ohkoing all over the place like in today's format. A turn less setup for a turn more longevity and _no weakness to chan_ is a great thing. Chan needs 3 turns or 2 pluspowers and 3 energy to take out Arcanine; Arcanine ohkos, so starting from no energy, they can trade. Water is an uncommon weakness (Rain Dance was dying at this point, though it did make a brief comeback) and honestly can be played around, with Scyther's 70 hp and free retreat being your friend. Run Switch. Run Scoop Up for your scythers/magmars. It's a really fun deck to play, and back in the day it was HILARIOUSLY cheap to build. People ran stuff like Koffing and Farfetch'd over Scyther, and played absolutely no rares in it.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

I'm starting to get it:

vs. 1 energy Hitmonchan:
Wiggly dies in 2 turns
Arcanine dies in 5 turns

vs. 3 energy Mewtwo:
Wiggly dies in 8 turns lol
Arcanine dies in 3 turns

vs. 2 energy Electabuzz:
Wiggly dies in 3 turns on average
Arcanine dies in 3 turns on average

vs. 3 energy Scyther:
Wiggly dies in 3 turns
Arcanine dies in 4 turns

So the extra HP actually does make a difference half the time.

For his second attack, is it maybe worth using Defender in this deck instead of Pluspower so you can potentially squeeze 3 turns out of him using Take Down?

Edit: And what about Chansey/Lickitung instead of Scyther in the Arcanine deck? Some stall to get 3 energy on Arcanine, then Scoop Up.
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

Defender is something that's been argued back and forth a lot as to whether it's worth it. Personally I don't think so because it's OHKOing things all over the place and pluspowers just make it more ridiculous. If you're going to run defenders, I'd say run both?
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

I think I'm being too much of a weirdo about not having overlapping cards. If there was no overlapping restriction, how does this sound for a 6 deck format?

1-Potpourri (2 Mewtwo/2 Hitmon/2 Buzz/2 Ditto)
2-Cleaner (4 Magmar/4 Arcanine/4 Scyther)
3-\/iagra (3 Hitmon/4 Wigglytuff/3 Kangaskhan/2 Ditto) - Lass x3, no Rocket Sneak
4-Sponge (4 Electabuzz/4 Mewtwo) - Super Energy Removals
5-Clefable (3 Mewtwo, 4 Clefable, 2 Scyther) - Super Energy Removals
6-Raindance

The Wigglytuff could also be Magmar/Wigglytuff.

I think the thing to keep in mind is that these decks have to be balanced to play against each other. For example, x1 Eevee may be awesome tech against opposing Dittos in a theoretical tournament environment, but what's the point of it if the other decks don't have Ditto? Or, "\/iagra" has an amazing matchup against other Wigglytuff decks because it packs Hitmonchans, but what's the point of anti-Wigglytuff when this little box set only has one Wigglytuff deck?

I'd like to find a nice give and take of balance, though there are some unavoidable "auto lose" matchups (like Cleaner vs. Raindance). Some things to keep in mind to try for good overall balance:
-Wigglytuff loses to Super Energy Removal
-Cleaner uses to Super Energy Removal and Raindance
-Raindance loses to Lass
-Clefable...has no bad matchup?!
-For Sponge/Potpourri/70 HP basics...
Mewtwo loses to Ditto and Wigglytuff
Magmar loses to nothing common
Hitmon loses to Scyther and Mewtwo
Electabuzz loses to Hitmon
Scyther loses to Magmar
 
RE: (Unlimited) - Haymaker, Wigglytuff, Raindance...

I've been toying with this idea bit more lately, bumping for any added insight on decklists/balancing tips/thoughts about the project in general...

The biggest problem I have is that there are a lot of "pet decks" I'd like to put in here that are entirely matchup/tech dependent, but with only one representative of each archetype the tech becomes irrelevant. I love the Kangaskhan/Wigglytuff/Hitmonchan deck, but it's meant to beat other Wigglytuff decks...so if there is only one in the whole boxed set then that sort of defeats the purpose lol. I guess if I ever ran into someone else who happened to have a deck from this era...

I've also been toying around with a deck that runs Mr. Fuji and Mew, it's really fun...
 
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