Discussion "Hail King Garb": What Garbodor Means Next Season

[awesomeMSG]

I already have been testing Greninja VS. Garbodor decks. It really isn't that bad (And I don't play Xerosic/Startling Megaphone to combat it). I have gotten the Lysandre and VS Seeker consistently when they put down the Trubbish or Garbodor and Float Stone. We only have to deal with Garbodor for a bit longer until they print a tool disruption card. I think Greninja BREAK will still see play because Yanmega relies on abilities (*cough* Shadow Stitch *cough*). And Mega Sceptile is a deck that will lose even more than Greninja being Super Scoop Up and AZ mainly. Overall Greninja isn't severally effected by Garbotoxin lock.

 

[SpoonLarry]

I'm not entirely talking about Garbador. Garbador is just one part of the design. I'm talking about tools in general. To give no way to pull a tool off, basically sets a design precedence. It ingrains tools as central focus of the game. It puts a lot of pokemon out of OHKO. It even speeds up Mega's without the ability to hinder them. I think the general conversation is Garbador. It is the discussion of interest, but as the game proceeds tools in general will get really dangerous. I think when people realize there is no way pull off, Bursting balloon, Fighting fury belt, Spirit Links and float stones on any Pokemon with an Item or supporter, they will realize that not having any counters is really a design flaw. Not only that, but it kills the use of Eco Arm. A card I felt balanced the scraper/megahorn/Xerosic.

I think not giving players any repercussions on using tools is not a good design. It is a bad design.

Like I said, I challenge Pokemon to design better. There is no repercussion of playing tools. It is a bad design.

Just like there is no repercussion for dropping Pokemon into the discard pile. It is a bad design.

Having no repercussion does not make a clever trainer. It is trainers like myself that try to abuse a broken part of the game to achieve victory in the most odious way that the game provides. I'm not clever because the designer gave me no repercussions of my actions. The designer, however is a bad designer for setting the game to achieve victory through his/her broken design.

NONO what have you done, if the Pokemon company sees this they will bring trev back because there are no repercussions for people running 4 ultra balls, VS seekers, trainers mail... all of which are far more powerful items than the current tool cards we will have available in the new rotation, while also shutting those down because yup they are item cards, but wait even that didn't stop people from running them, so maybe they should just outright ban all these cards, seems like a fair assessment right? Lack of tool removal is not as big a deal as your making it out to be.

 

[SpoonLarry]

Well if you aren't using abilities then you won't have them but what about the player with Magnezone? They built their whole strategy based on the card as well as their deck. Turning of their ability can also turn a lot of cards into dead cards. The whole deck folds because of poor developer judgement. This isn't a problem with the player just like its not the players fault when they lose to item lock because 60% of their deck is now dead draws. Pokemon never having great design isn't an argument because it did. We had balanced, skillful and fun formats before. Now a problem now is the speed of the game increased to meet the needs of best of 3 but we can still have this and a balanced format.

It would be nice if they do this but many other things need to change as well. For one they would need to introduce side decks. They also need to make the game with setup turns in mind and make more attacks that can be used on the first turn for the purpose of setting up because as of now, going second hurts.

I disagree, if it were the current format than I would be less harsh on this statement, but all I see honestly is the Pokemon company starting to learn from these mistakes, and I for one am very excited for this new rotation as it looks like it will be one the the healthiest formats we have had in a very long time. The only mistake they are making is printing bad cards like Magnezone giving people the opportunity to complain about how there bad cards aren't winning because of the good cards. If your deck can only do one thing than its bad and you are doing the very opposite of being creative or innovative, by them shutting down 1 trick ponies opens up creativity and innovation, forcing the players to find the answers to there problems.

Being a former YuGiOh player, back when it was good, I can say that I certainly miss having a side deck, but after playing Pokemon for a few years I also learned that its not really necessary, pokemon is a far more simple card game, they don't introduce multiple archetypes every set that often also introduce entirely new mechanics to the game. The game mechanics stay relatively the same, and I have thus far been impressed with how they are able to keep the game so fresh with these constraints, I feel the same way with another newer popular card game hearthstone just as an example, of a more casual and simple card game.

 

[poke4trade]

NONO what have you done, if the Pokemon company sees this they will bring trev back because there are no repercussions for people running 4 ultra balls, VS seekers, trainers mail... all of which are far more powerful items than the current tool cards we will have available in the new rotation, while also shutting those down because yup they are item cards, but wait even that didn't stop people from running them, so maybe they should just outright ban all these cards, seems like a fair assessment right? Lack of tool removal is not as big a deal as your making it out to be.

Only time will tell...but in the meantime, I intend to search out ways to abuse the meta as best I can.

 

[Draaka]

Yeah, it will slow down but not that much. We still have plenty of speed cards. To a player who using abilities as their game plan, taking 100 damage on your attacker with energy is hard to ignore when you have to deal with a Garbodor. Look at Fairy Toolbox, they can't afford to waste turns to KO a Garbodor with a damaged Pokemon in the active spot. Losing 3 energy is a huge loss.
To me, its not a matter of what is more damaging since this is pretty subjective. Toolbox decks suffer. Energy acceleration decks suffer and while not everyone plays these decks, those who do are being punished for no reason because they prefer the play style. Players could easily not run as many item cards to fight item lock as well. This did happen when The Truth was a thing. Outside of running very specific decks, not much can be done. One thing we need to remember is Pokemon isn't Yugioh or Magic. Side decks don't exist so any counters or techs must exist in the deck. To me this is just bad game design so if side decks aren't going to be a thing, then cards need to be designed with this in mind. Even to some decks, the lock Giratina puts out is too much. Now that doesn't affect my deck because I dont run any cards Giratina turns off but not everyone wants to run my deck. Balance is to give players the ability to play their deck and counter when they need to. Garb won't have any counters, which kills of play styles.
Well if you aren't using abilities then you won't have them but what about the player with Magnezone? They built their whole strategy based on the card as well as their deck. Turning of their ability can also turn a lot of cards into dead cards. The whole deck folds because of poor developer judgement. This isn't a problem with the player just like its not the players fault when they lose to item lock because 60% of their deck is now dead draws. Pokemon never having great design isn't an argument because it did. We had balanced, skillful and fun formats before. Now a problem now is the speed of the game increased to meet the needs of best of 3 but we can still have this and a balanced format.
It would be nice if they do this but many other things need to change as well. For one they would need to introduce side decks. They also need to make the game with setup turns in mind and make more attacks that can be used on the first turn for the purpose of setting up because as of now, going second hurts.

I can't help but think you are blaming poor deck building choices on the pokemon companies designs here. And if Garbodor didn't exist then maybe you and others would be complaining there is no way to shut down all these OP pokemon abilities and that abilities are too good and no other strategy can work.

If your main strategy relies on abilities, find a way to beat garbodor or accept you will loose those matches. That is what a good player does. Don't take a magnezone, flareon/camerupt or M Alakazam deck then bitch and moan when you get screwed by a grab deck if you haven't built in a counter for their counter.

No game, battle or war has ever been won by relying on a single strength without being able to counter the thing that beats your strength. If you have abilities, learn to counter garb. There are plenty of options.

If all your deck is is abilities then GL because hex maniac is a thing and you can't counter it. There isn't a single way to counter hex maniac in the game unlike garb. And any good player will realise your strategy in turn one or two then chain five hex maniacs all game long until they are so far in front of you you can't make a come back. That's what I do if I see an ability reliant deck. Chain hex + four Vs seekers.

TL;DR

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I disagree, if it were the current format than I would be less harsh on this statement, but all I see honestly is the Pokemon company starting to learn from these mistakes, and I for one am very excited for this new rotation as it looks like it will be one the the healthiest formats we have had in a very long time.

Learning from what? These effects have been in the format before with the same outcome as before so I'll say what I said before, either didn't know or didn't care. The new format, while better, is still looking to be a lock based format.

The only mistake they are making is printing bad cards like Magnezone giving people the opportunity to complain about how there bad cards aren't winning because of the good cards.

How is Magnezone bad? It has very good attackers in Pikachu EX and Raikou, can abuse Lugia EX and m-Mewtwo EX, has godly attackers in expanded and makes mega sheep decent as well as having very good trainer support. What makes this card bad?

If your deck can only do one thing than its bad and you are doing the very opposite of being creative or innovative, by them shutting down 1 trick ponies opens up creativity and innovation, forcing the players to find the answers to there problems.

I don't understand this statement. Literally every deck that wins bar toolbox decks do only one thing.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I can't help but think you are blaming poor deck building choices on the pokemon companies designs here. And if Garbodor didn't exist then maybe you and others would be complaining there is no way to shut down all these OP pokemon abilities and that abilities are too good and no other strategy can work.

If your main strategy relies on abilities, find a way to beat garbodor or accept you will loose those matches. That is what a good player does. Don't take a magnezone, flareon/camerupt or M Alakazam deck then bitch and moan when you get screwed by a grab deck if you haven't built in a counter for their counter.

No game, battle or war has ever been won by relying on a single strength without being able to counter the thing that beats your strength. If you have abilities, learn to counter garb. There are plenty of options.

If all your deck is is abilities then GL because hex maniac is a thing and you can't counter it. There isn't a single way to counter hex maniac in the game unlike garb. And any good player will realise your strategy in turn one or two then chain five hex maniacs all game long until they are so far in front of you you can't make a come back. That's what I do if I see an ability reliant deck. Chain hex + four Vs seekers.

TL;DR

I want to find a way to respond to this without sounding like an asshole. I'm a good player that's no stranger to top finishes in tournaments. I know the meta and how to beat it and all that other good stuff. Garb has been in the format for years now and I had no issue dealing with it because of said counters but what I notice is dishonest players like you don't want a good and balanced game and confuse bad card and developer problems for player issues and then act as if you're somehow good because you use broken options.

I also dont want to get into that red herring but its clear that players like you have no intent on getting good at the game and rely on skill to win but rather cheap, broken tactics.

 

[Draaka]

Learning from what? These effects have been in the format before with the same outcome as before so I'll say what I said before, either didn't know or didn't care. The new format, while better, is still looking to be a lock based format.

How is Magnezone bad? It has very good attackers in Pikachu EX and Raikou, can abuse Lugia EX and m-Mewtwo EX, has godly attackers in expanded and makes mega sheep decent as well as having very good trainer support. What makes this card bad?

I don't understand this statement. Literally every deck that wins bar toolbox decks do only one thing.

You literally said that the whole magnezone deck folds because of Garbodor. That makes it a pretty bad deck. Make your mind up.

Well if you aren't using abilities then you won't have them but what about the player with Magnezone? They built their whole strategy based on the card as well as their deck. Turning of their ability can also turn a lot of cards into dead cards. The whole deck folds because of poor developer judgement.

As for every deck winning doing only one thing, then you are wrong. There are plenty of decks that have had alternate win conditions. There have been slow play control decks that mostly win by prizes but can go to mill or attrition strategies in the drop of a hat. Like toad decks control decks that use bunnelby. Popular earlier in the format and last season too. Control the board, slowly kill the enemy with quaking punch. But if that won't work just deck them out, then when they get low finish it with a surprise bunnelby.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

You literally said that the whole magnezone deck folds because of Garbodor. That makes it a pretty bad deck. Make your mind up.

Where did I say that?

As for every deck winning doing only one thing, then you are wrong. There are plenty of decks that have had alternate win conditions. There have been slow play control decks that mostly win by prizes but can go to mill or attrition strategies in the drop of a hat. Like toad decks control decks that use bunnelby. Popular earlier in the format and last season too. Control the board, slowly kill the enemy with quaking punch. But if that won't work just deck them out, then when they get low finish it with a surprise bunnelby.

So can every other deck? Thats no more "alternate' a win condition than dumping 12 energy on a Lugia EX and nuking the board since it can happen in a 'drop of a hat'

 

[Draaka]

I want to find a way to respond to this without sounding like an asshole. I'm a good player that's no stranger to top finishes in tournaments. I know the meta and how to beat it and all that other good stuff. Garb has been in the format for years now and I had no issue dealing with it because of said counters but what I notice is dishonest players like you don't want a good and balanced game and confuse bad card and developer problems for player issues and then act as if you're somehow good because you use broken options.

I also dont want to get into that red herring but its clear that players like you have no intent on getting good at the game and rely on skill to win but rather cheap, broken tactics.

You don't know the decks I play, I have refused to play nightmarch or trev. I have won all my points and top eights this season with solid decks that just play pokemon fairly and efficiently. Dark (without maxies gallade), Meinshao (I dare you to find a more skill based deck this season than friggen meinshao), waterbox and lately zygarde fighting have been the decks I've played and won points with this year. I think you've failed to not sound like an asshole bro.

I like game design, I like balanced games, this season hasn't been the best for it. And turn 1 locks suck balls to play against. But that isn't what Garbodor does. Garbodor is not the same as trev or vileplume. Even a turn 1 Garb won't stop your opponent from winning the game by itself. A t1 trev will. An average NM start will. Vileplume t1 will. Garbodor won't.

This thread was meant to be about discussing garbodor, and quite frankly I think garbodor will fit well in the new meta. I don't think Garb is as OP as other stuff the pokemon company are happy to have around, and you can't convince me that Garby is gonna break the metagame or destroy every ability deck ever. You are just fearmongering when you say that. It has the potential to be tier 1 yes. But something has to be tier 1. There are a lot of great abilities out there and Garbodor is a balanced counter for them.

 

[Draaka]

Where did I say that?

So can every other deck? Thats no more "alternate' a win condition than dumping 12 energy on a Lugia EX and nuking the board since it can happen in a 'drop of a hat'

You said it here. Which is what I quoted just now.

Well if you aren't using abilities then you won't have them but what about the player with Magnezone? They built their whole strategy based on the card as well as their deck. Turning of their ability can also turn a lot of cards into dead cards. The whole deck folds because of poor developer judgement.

=======

No, not every deck can do that. NM can't win by deck out, it uses too many resources turn one and two. Neither can vespiquen. Neither can most decks in current format. Current decks that rely on a t1 set up burn too many resources to switch to a rough seas and stall control style, and even if they can they don't have enough of the control and stall cards in the deck to do it successfully.

I don't understand this statement. Literally every deck that wins bar toolbox decks do only one thing.

YOU LITERALLY JUST SAID EVERY DECK DOES ONE THING, NOW YOU ARE SAYING THAT ANY DECK CAN RESORT TO A SLOW DRAWN OUT GAME.

This is the second time you have completely contradicted yourself this thread. One minute you say Magnezone has no potential because it gets shut down by garb and suddnely it has too many dead cards, then you say it's a great card with loads of support and options and can do well. Then you say all decks only do one thing, then when I prove you wrong that you can build a deck that has multiple win conditions you say oh every deck can do that when they clearly can't.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

@Draaka I have no interest in talking with you if you're going to be dishonest like this.

 

[Draaka]

I'm literally quoting what you were saying earlier dude. They are your quotes you wrote. Then you say something that contradicts with what you were saying earlier.

 

[SpoonLarry]

Learning from what? These effects have been in the format before with the same outcome as before so I'll say what I said before, either didn't know or didn't care. The new format, while better, is still looking to be a lock based format.

How is Magnezone bad? It has very good attackers in Pikachu EX and Raikou, can abuse Lugia EX and m-Mewtwo EX, has godly attackers in expanded and makes mega sheep decent as well as having very good trainer support. What makes this card bad?

I don't understand this statement. Literally every deck that wins bar toolbox decks do only one thing.

I can name one bad pokemon that does something similar that is also bad, and one card that does it all while not being bad.

The Bad pokemon, Togekiss, why? because it has delta evolution and can abuse the fudge out of devolution spray, and doesn't need other cards to support it, like professors letter. Why is this still bad? because its a stage god damn 2 that is meant to be your energy accelerator!?!? If your spending all this time clunking up your deck with all this trash and its outcome isn't even what wins you the game, than wtf is the point? Its like collecting all the pieces of exodia only to do nothing but fuel your win condition (Good luck having that with 20 cards dedicated to your accelerator) while not winning on its own, oh and while your sitting there twiddling your thumbs waiting for this awful setup to happen, what exactly are you doing to stop your opponent from straight up winning? At this point who cares about Garbo shutting down your abilities, what are you doing to prevent losing 6 prizes? or having your incredibly inconsistent setup being shut down by any multitudes of things, namely hex maniac and Lysandre? I can name one really strong deck that struggles with this and is the only reason why it wont out right dominate the format, Greninja, and let me tell ya, Magnezone is no Greninja.

The Good card, max elixir nuf said.

 

[WastedSkyPirate]

I already have been testing Greninja VS. Garbodor decks. It really isn't that bad (And I don't play Xerosic/Startling Megaphone to combat it). I have gotten the Lysandre and VS Seeker consistently when they put down the Trubbish or Garbodor and Float Stone. We only have to deal with Garbodor for a bit longer until they print a tool disruption card. I think Greninja BREAK will still see play because Yanmega relies on abilities (*cough* Shadow Stitch *cough*). And Mega Sceptile is a deck that will lose even more than Greninja being Super Scoop Up and AZ mainly. Overall Greninja isn't severally effected by Garbotoxin lock.

Hi @awesomeMSG

I have to disagree on your statement in bold. The primary reason Greninja BREAK is a good deck is Giant Water Shuriken; so naturally Garbodor is a big problem even with Startling Megaphone and Xerosic in the format! In PRC-On we lose every effective method for dealing with Garbodor; the final nail coffin being the rotation of Muscle Band, which means the Greninja player can't even Lysandre and OHKO the opponent's Garbodor!

You know you have a problem when the best way to deal with your main problem is to hit back-to-back Lysandres.

Spoiler: Feels bad man...

I do, however, agree with you that Yanmega BREAK won't be such a big problem for Greninja. Both the BREAK and the base Yanmega fail to OHKO Greninja with their attacks (assuming you don't equip a Tool card) plus you make a good point about Shadow Stitching shutting down their Abilities.

 

[Draaka]

It's only anecdotal evidence, but I took the Dark/Garb/Tina future list (with a few very minor changes) from the article down to my local monthly league challenge (multiple worlds qualifiers and over 80% of our players qualified for nats, it's a strong play area) and came first, beating greninja in the final. A lot of Greninja lists don't play Lysandre, and if you can force them to megaphone early you basically win the game. They can't Xerosic as well as you can reattach tools, especially if you can get double garbos down. And if you play a hoopa and max elixirs you are setting up so fast that turn two both games I was swinging with a darkrai and had a giritina with two DDE on the bench, just one shotting froakies and frogadiers with ease, even non breaks are easy to kill with a FFB on Darkrai.

Going into the matchup I didn't fancy my chances as the other player I feel is better than me, and was first time playing this deck, while he took his Greninja to top 50 at nats. But I slaughtered him, it wasn't even close. Even made a massive misplay but I was so far ahead he couldn't claw it back.

Dark/Garb/Tina vs Greninja felt like an autowin.

 

[21times]

49 reasons to run Garbodor:

Alakazam - Kinesis
Ampharos - Shocking Light
Ariados - Poisonous Nest
Carbink - Safeguard
Clawitzer - Mega Booster
Crawdaunt - Unruly Claw
Delphox Break - Flare Witch
Dragonite - Max Wind
Empoleon - Dignified Fighter
Flareon - Flash Fire
Froslass - Drag Along
Gallade - Premonition
Gardevoir - Bright Heal
Genesect - Drive Change
Giratina - Renegade Pulse
Golduck Break - Hyper Transfer
Greninja Break - Giant Water Shuriken
Haunter - Gothic Fear
Ho Oh - Purifying Fire
Hoopa - Scoundrel Ring
Hypno - Goodnight, Babies
Lugia - Pressure
Machamp - Fighting Fury
Magnezone - Magnetic Circuit
Manaphy - Aqua Tube
Marowak - Bodyguard
Metagross - Magnetic Warp
Mew - Memories of Dawn
Milotic - Sparkling Ripples
Mr. Mime - Bench Barrier
Octillery - Abyssal Hand
Raikou - Shining Body
Raticate - Antibodies
Regirock - Regi Power
Reshiram - Turboblaze
Sceptile - Nurture and Heal
Servine - Serpentine Strangle
Shaymin - Set Up
Slow King - Royal Flash
Smeargle - Second Coat
Snorlax - Plump Body
Togekiss - Serene Grace
Tyranitar - Raging Roar
Unown - Farewell Letter
Vileplume - Irritating Pollen
Vivillon - Energy Color
Wobbuffet - Bide Barricade
Yveltal - Fright Night
Zoroark - Stand In

Anybody still think Garbodor's not going to be HUGE in the new rotation? Really, how many decks are you planning for the new rotation that don't have any pokemon with abilities? I can only think of one, Mega Mewtwo, but even that would pair beautifully with Clawitzer. Right now, it looks like decks with Garbodor will be Tier 1 and everybody else will be fighting for second.

 

[Draaka]

The new Hawlucha as well. Make it a round 50. That Lysandre effect can be very good if you can bounce it (which is admittedly much harder now SSU and AZ are out).

 

[21times]

Thanks I knew someone would help round it out.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

49 reasons to run Garbodor:

Alakazam - Kinesis
Ampharos - Shocking Light
Ariados - Poisonous Nest
Carbink - Safeguard
Clawitzer - Mega Booster
Crawdaunt - Unruly Claw
Delphox Break - Flare Witch
Dragonite - Max Wind
Empoleon - Dignified Fighter
Flareon - Flash Fire
Froslass - Drag Along
Gallade - Premonition
Gardevoir - Bright Heal
Genesect - Drive Change
Giratina - Renegade Pulse
Golduck Break - Hyper Transfer
Greninja Break - Giant Water Shuriken
Haunter - Gothic Fear
Ho Oh - Purifying Fire
Hoopa - Scoundrel Ring
Hypno - Goodnight, Babies
Lugia - Pressure
Machamp - Fighting Fury
Magnezone - Magnetic Circuit
Manaphy - Aqua Tube
Marowak - Bodyguard
Metagross - Magnetic Warp
Mew - Memories of Dawn
Milotic - Sparkling Ripples
Mr. Mime - Bench Barrier
Octillery - Abyssal Hand
Raikou - Shining Body
Raticate - Antibodies
Regirock - Regi Power
Reshiram - Turboblaze
Sceptile - Nurture and Heal
Servine - Serpentine Strangle
Shaymin - Set Up
Slow King - Royal Flash
Smeargle - Second Coat
Snorlax - Plump Body
Togekiss - Serene Grace
Tyranitar - Raging Roar
Unown - Farewell Letter
Vileplume - Irritating Pollen
Vivillon - Energy Color
Wobbuffet - Bide Barricade
Yveltal - Fright Night
Zoroark - Stand In

Anybody still think Garbodor's not going to be HUGE in the new rotation? Really, how many decks are you planning for the new rotation that don't have any pokemon with abilities? I can only think of one, Mega Mewtwo, but even that would pair beautifully with Clawitzer. Right now, it looks like decks with Garbodor will be Tier 1 and everybody else will be fighting for second.

You have to remember, those Pokemon all suck and the player is just bad for using them without a way to counter. Garbodor isn't that bad. Just Lysandre it out and KO it while I'm hitting your attacker before you can hit mine back.