Standard Greninja BREAK (BKT-BUS)

[JDA]

First time I have heard anyone propose this, have honestly never seen it been played before in PTCGO either. That being said, I am definitely open to the inclusion of Alolan Vulpix and Baby Alolan Ninetales into Greninja builds. But, adding a Ninetales-GX strikes me as a bad idea due to a couple reasons:

• For starters, Greninja prides itself on using one energy attacks, so attaching even two energies to attack disrupts the strategy, never mind three. The attacks Blizzard Edge and Ice Path GX simply require too much energy to use, so it doesn't work for a deck that only runs ten in total. Now I'm not saying there is no chance of success, but in my opinion to keep consistency which is something Greninja needs, stick to one energy attacks.
• Additionally, Alolan Ninetales-GX is a GX Pokemon which may seem like a good addition to a deck that doesn't utilize the new system, but there is one big flaw. One of Greninja's strongest points moving forward into the next rotation is that Choice Band is useless against Greninja because it normally doesn't run any GX or EX Pokemon. Therefore, when almost all decks run anywhere from one to three Choice Bands, you want to force dead cards into your opponent's hand at all times.
• Finally, Alolan Ninetales-GX doesn't have free retreat cost. I'm fully aware this is something you can't avoid, and Alolan Vulpix also suffers from not having free retreat cost, but it isn't something you can ignore. Giant Water Shuriken already discards energies, so losing them on retreating is always painful, especially for a deck like this.

On the other hand, the Baby Alolan Ninetales line combos well with Greninja at very little cost to the deck itself. That cost of course being adding a couple extra Pokemon might slow down the pace of the deck a bit, something you should be able to overcome with extra draw support. That being said, not only does Alolan Vulpix act as an early-game search card, but Baby Ninetales also acts as a vital wall against a format that solely relies on GXs in order to function. Unfortunately since this hasn't been tested yet of course, there is no guarantee that it will replace the Greninja/Talonflame archetype that has seen tournament level success this year. All in all, I don't believe Alolan Ninetales-GX has any place in a Greninja deck, but we might just see Baby Alolan Ninetales play alongside Greninja in the new format.

The thing for me is very simple, Ninetales GX is not the only reason to include it. It's one of the few Pokemon that still allows Greninja's set up because of two very simple reasons:
1. Beacon lets you search out any Pokemon, from basic to stage 1,2 or BREAK. Greninja BREAK still needs this.
2. Unlike Ninetales GX (which is really optional, as described above) regular Alolan Ninetales is a wall for a metagame dominated by GX and EX. What this allows for is time and time is all Greninja BREAK needs because the moment your opponent is looking down multiple Greninja BREAKs while it still is trying to figure out an awnser to Alolan Ninetales is the moment you win.

The idea most certainly is there for the upcomming format and not the current one. However I believe that is what this topic is about. Feel free to correct me if Im reading BKT to BUS wrong in the title of the topic.
The set up with Alolan Vulpix is not only simple, gives you time and fits into the Water deck without doubt it also allows you to have a good early plan that is consistent. Something the current Greninja deck does not have. As before, Talonflame is good if it shows up as the opening Pokemon, which to date it cannot consistently do. Alolan Vulpix, Ninetales and GX on the other hand are not bound or limited in early game effectiveness.

Lastly if you feel that free retreats are an issue consider Manaphy EX as a tech option aswell. For sure you don't have to follow the Vulpix path but I know I would and will.

Cheers,

 

[Trainer Josh]

The thing for me is very simple, Ninetales GX is not the only reason to include it. It's one of the few Pokemon that still allows Greninja's set up because of two very simple reasons:
1. Beacon lets you search out any Pokemon, from basic to stage 1,2 or BREAK. Greninja BREAK still needs this.
2. Unlike Ninetales GX (which is really optional, as described above) regular Alolan Ninetales is a wall for a metagame dominated by GX and EX. What this allows for is time and time is all Greninja BREAK needs because the moment your opponent is looking down multiple Greninja BREAKs while it still is trying to figure out an awnser to Alolan Ninetales is the moment you win.

The idea most certainly is there for the upcomming format and not the current one. However I believe that is what this topic is about. Feel free to correct me if Im reading BKT to BUS wrong in the title of the topic.
The set up with Alolan Vulpix is not only simple, gives you time and fits into the Water deck without doubt it also allows you to have a good early plan that is consistent. Something the current Greninja deck does not have. As before, Talonflame is good if it shows up as the opening Pokemon, which to date it cannot consistently do. Alolan Vulpix, Ninetales and GX on the other hand are not bound or limited in early game effectiveness.

Lastly if you feel that free retreats are an issue consider Manaphy EX as a tech option aswell. For sure you don't have to follow the Vulpix path but I know I would and will.

Cheers,

Depending on which Greninja archetype you're running, Alolan Vulpix's Beacon may or may not be as useful. Given you run the Talonflame version, you already have a search engine that not only has 70 more HP, but can grab any 2 cards you want while doing 40 damage. If you run the Starmie archetype, Vulpix acts as a great search engine for Pokemon.

I already mentioned that I could see Baby Alolan Ninetales being played with Greninja, because it acts as a wall against the entire meta, literally. Therefore giving Greninja the necessary time to set up.

On the note of Talonflame, you're right it's often useless and acts as a dead card in your deck. But, in the new format without Dive Ball you will start feeling the need to discard far more often because Greninja now runs four Ultra Ball. Finding 2 cards in your hand to discard can be hard, but Talonflame I have found works perfectly with it.

Running Manaphy EX in a Greninja deck is a bad idea, period. For the exact reason Greninja doesn't run Tapu Lele (because your opponent takes 2 prizes for the knockout), there is zero chance anyone would tech in Manaphy. At least Tapu Lele had a decent 170 HP which can be hard to OHKO, but Manaphy on the other hand has a measly 120 HP.

 

[JDA]

Depending on which Greninja archetype you're running, Alolan Vulpix's Beacon may or may not be as useful. Given you run the Talonflame version, you already have a search engine that not only has 70 more HP, but can grab any 2 cards you want while doing 40 damage. If you run the Starmie archetype, Vulpix acts as a great search engine for Pokemon.

I already mentioned that I could see Baby Alolan Ninetales being played with Greninja, because it acts as a wall against the entire meta, literally. Therefore giving Greninja the necessary time to set up.

On the note of Talonflame, you're right it's often useless and acts as a dead card in your deck. But, in the new format without Dive Ball you will start feeling the need to discard far more often because Greninja now runs four Ultra Ball. Finding 2 cards in your hand to discard can be hard, but Talonflame I have found works perfectly with it.

Running Manaphy EX in a Greninja deck is a bad idea, period. For the exact reason Greninja doesn't run Tapu Lele (because your opponent takes 2 prizes for the knockout), there is zero chance anyone would tech in Manaphy. At least Tapu Lele had a decent 170 HP which can be hard to OHKO, but Manaphy on the other hand has a measly 120 HP.

The thing with the Talonflame version is that you do not already have a search engine that you can consistantly pull out and point towards. The option that you will not start out with a Talonflame is rather big in that variant of the deck. This option isn't reduced by running Alolan Vulpix but unlike the Talonflame version finding an Alolan Vulpix in your first and continious turns is not a bad thing, or better put 'dead' card.

I somehwat agree with you that you might feel the side effects of discarding more cards, granted the benifit gained of Safeguard Alolan Ninetales is that you can have turns where you will want to keep the state as is (because your opponent has a GX/EX active) and just continue the Water Shuriken.

My prime point (and this of the deck for the format to come) remains that you will have to run another engine. Engines where Tapu Lele, Alolan Ninetales and Manaphy could be a part of. Because of the talk of the upcomming format the prime point I'm making is not to explain how the old engine works but what the upcomming engine could look like. It's up to us to test it.

There is not a single reason I can think of to dismiss Alolan Vulpix, Alolan Ninetales and Alolan Ninetales GX from this deck. A Greninja deck wins when it gets the time to find all the cards, this is exactly what this line allows for.

Cheers,

 

[Trainer Josh]

The thing with the Talonflame version is that you do not already have a search engine that you can consistantly pull out and point towards. The option that you will not start out with a Talonflame is rather big in that variant of the deck. This option isn't reduced by running Alolan Vulpix but unlike the Talonflame version finding an Alolan Vulpix in your first and continious turns is not a bad thing, or better put 'dead' card.

I somehwat agree with you that you might feel the side effects of discarding more cards, granted the benifit gained of Safeguard Alolan Ninetales is that you can have turns where you will want to keep the state as is (because your opponent has a GX/EX active) and just continue the Water Shuriken.

My prime point (and this of the deck for the format to come) remains that you will have to run another engine. Engines where Tapu Lele, Alolan Ninetales and Manaphy could be a part of. Because of the talk of the upcomming format the prime point I'm making is not to explain how the old engine works but what the upcomming engine could look like. It's up to us to test it.

There is not a single reason I can think of to dismiss Alolan Vulpix, Alolan Ninetales and Alolan Ninetales GX from this deck. A Greninja deck wins when it gets the time to find all the cards, this is exactly what this line allows for.

Cheers,

I don't believe Greninja needs a search engine it can "constantly pull out and point towards." There is a reason Greninja runs so many draw support cards and search cards, so that it doesn't have to consistently rely on a search engine. With that in mind, I think Alolan Vulpix is a mediocre search engine because it can only grab Pokémon, not trainers or energy. Talonflame as you have stated has flaws, but at least it can grab any two cards you want.

Unfortunately, with everyone calling Alolan Ninetales ability "broken" every deck is scrambling to find a good counter to it. So I don't believe you will constantly have the luxury of "keeping the state as is," with Ninetales.

I completely agree new engines should be tested, after all how would we know whether it's good. I'm merely comparing old engines and new engines, when I state my opinion.

I have already given a glut of reasons as to why Alolan Ninetales-GX shouldn't be run in a Greninja deck. On the other hand, I see potential for Alolan Vulpix and Alolan Ninetales to to be run depending on what archetype you prefer.

 

[jessalakasam]

BUMP I may use this at Hartford (debating between this and Gardy) so I need advice for the meta that will be there

 

[Jfmg]

Hello! Ive started playing pokemon tcg roughly 3 months ago and since then Ive been experiencing with all kinds of decks, though always in standard. Last week i decided to give greninja a try. I heard greninja was dead with rotation but i didnt believe it. Been playing with it and trying different builds.

Today i saw this thread and decided to do my first post with the deck ive been having great sucess with.
Its purpose is consistency, having a good amount of draw cards and ways too keep the ninjas rolling.

Here it is

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 19

* 3 Greninja BREAK BKP 41
* 4 Froakie BKP 38
* 4 Frogadier BKP 39
* 4 Greninja BKP 40
* 2 Staryu BKP 25
* 2 Starmie EVO 31

##Trainer Cards - 31

* 4 Professor Sycamore STS 114
* 2 Brooklet Hill GRI 120
* 3 Lillie SUM 147
* 4 Evosoda GEN 62
* 3 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 2 Field Blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzma BUS 143
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 4 N FAC 105
* 3 Choice Band GRI 121

##Energy - 10

* 7 Water Energy EVO 93
* 3 Splash Energy BKP 113

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

I hope this can help someone and of course im open to suggestions.

Have fun !

 

[jessalakasam]

Hello! Ive started playing pokemon tcg roughly 3 months ago and since then Ive been experiencing with all kinds of decks, though always in standard. Last week i decided to give greninja a try. I heard greninja was dead with rotation but i didnt believe it. Been playing with it and trying different builds.

Today i saw this thread and decided to do my first post with the deck ive been having great sucess with.
Its purpose is consistency, having a good amount of draw cards and ways too keep the ninjas rolling.

Here it is

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 19

* 3 Greninja BREAK BKP 41
* 4 Froakie BKP 38
* 4 Frogadier BKP 39
* 4 Greninja BKP 40
* 2 Staryu BKP 25
* 2 Starmie EVO 31

##Trainer Cards - 31

* 4 Professor Sycamore STS 114
* 2 Brooklet Hill GRI 120
* 3 Lillie SUM 147
* 4 Evosoda GEN 62
* 3 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 2 Field Blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzma BUS 143
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 4 N FAC 105
* 3 Choice Band GRI 121

##Energy - 10

* 7 Water Energy EVO 93
* 3 Splash Energy BKP 113

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

I hope this can help someone and of course im open to suggestions.

Have fun !

The reason I chose Muk was to counter Promo Giratina. You have no counter to it. The counter ATM is Muk Since most Gardy decks run it, it makes the matchup 50/50, not good for you

 

[Trainer Josh]

The reason I chose Muk was to counter Promo Giratina. You have no counter to it. The counter ATM is Muk Since most Gardy decks run it, it makes the matchup 50/50, not good for you

As of when did Gardy deck runs Promo Giratina? I have versed plenty of Gardevoir decks on PTCGO and at my locals, but have never seen one with Giratina it. In fact, I actually built a Gardevoir deck myself, and of course didn't consider that because I didn't see it anywhere. To be honest, I haven't run into a single deck this season that does run Promo Giratina, at this point I though it was dead. I'm not trying to disprove the success of your Muk deck of course, but just wanted to point out that I simply haven't seen Giratina this season, anywhere.

 

[Trainer Josh]

Hello! Ive started playing pokemon tcg roughly 3 months ago and since then Ive been experiencing with all kinds of decks, though always in standard. Last week i decided to give greninja a try. I heard greninja was dead with rotation but i didnt believe it. Been playing with it and trying different builds.

Today i saw this thread and decided to do my first post with the deck ive been having great sucess with.
Its purpose is consistency, having a good amount of draw cards and ways too keep the ninjas rolling.

Here it is

****** Pokémon Trading Card Game Deck List ******

##Pokémon - 19

* 3 Greninja BREAK BKP 41
* 4 Froakie BKP 38
* 4 Frogadier BKP 39
* 4 Greninja BKP 40
* 2 Staryu BKP 25
* 2 Starmie EVO 31

##Trainer Cards - 31

* 4 Professor Sycamore STS 114
* 2 Brooklet Hill GRI 120
* 3 Lillie SUM 147
* 4 Evosoda GEN 62
* 3 Rescue Stretcher GRI 130
* 2 Field Blower GRI 125
* 2 Guzma BUS 143
* 4 Ultra Ball SUM 135
* 4 N FAC 105
* 3 Choice Band GRI 121

##Energy - 10

* 7 Water Energy EVO 93
* 3 Splash Energy BKP 113

Total Cards - 60

****** Deck List Generated by the Pokémon TCG Online www.pokemon.com/TCGO ******

I hope this can help someone and of course im open to suggestions.

Have fun !

Glad to hear you got back into the TCG! While I actually prefer Talonflame archetype over Starmie, this definitely makes for an interesting and unique list. Running more draw support is something I have considered but have had trouble finding the space for, but Brooklet Hill on the other hand is a card only applicable in the Starmie archetype so I haven't played it in months (because I run Talonflame). Here are some changes I recommend you at least consider:

• I know your deck runs on consistency, but Froakie is more or less useless after the start of the game so a lot of players (myself included), dropped its count down to 3 to make room for other cards.
• Once again, I'm also aware you want all the consistency possible, but 3 Lillie is a little extreme. Given it's worked for you, there's not much I can say except at least try 2 Lillie, unless you have already done that.
• Try and find a way to increase your Guzma count to three, and this is one I highly recommend you do. With VS Seeker gone, Guzma is simply too good in this deck to only run two, trust me. I have come across so many situations where having the ability to pull in your opponent's Pokémon either won or lost me the game. Greninja is literally a spread damage deck, so it's always a good idea to take kills on Pokémon like Tapu Leles for example because the math works out great (60+110 for a knockout).
• This is a change I haven't made myself, but am seriously considering. Which is adding a 4th Choice Band, because Greninja can simply do so much more damage and math starts working out on high HP targets. With Field Blower out there and people constantly knocking out Greninjas, having that 4th one will come very handy in any game really.

Hey man, glad to see someone bringing something new to the table but also sticking to Greninja's roots (sorta a reference to Ash-Greninja at the end of XY anime). Good luck with your deck, and hope I was able to help!

 

[Duo]

As of when did Gardy deck runs Promo Giratina? I have versed plenty of Gardevoir decks on PTCGO and at my locals, but have never seen one with Giratina it. In fact, I actually built a Gardevoir deck myself, and of course didn't consider that because I didn't see it anywhere. To be honest, I haven't run into a single deck this season that does run Promo Giratina, at this point I though it was dead. I'm not trying to disprove the success of your Muk deck of course, but just wanted to point out that I simply haven't seen Giratina this season, anywhere.

I'm in absolute agreement with this.

Running a 2/2 line to counter a 1 card copy is already mathematically in your disadvantage in terms of how much deck space you're giving up to stop literally 1 card. It -can- be good to stop Lele, but you're never going to get Alolan Muk before someone else gets Lele for Brigette on turn 1, so it really doesn't matter much.

If your local players are all spamming Giratina promo to directly counter you, that's one thing. But you're talking about Hartford, a regional event, where people are not worried about Greninja BREAK. They're worried about Gardevoir GX, and no one is going to drop a Giratina Promo in their list at this current time in the format. If I was going to Hartford myself, I would not put Giratina Promo into any of the deck lists that I can choose from. I would be focusing on my set up speed & consistency for universally improved match ups.

 

[Jfmg]

• Glad to hear you got back into the TCG! While I actually prefer Talonflame archetype over Starmie, this definitely makes for an interesting and unique list. Running more draw support is something I have considered but have had trouble finding the space for, but Brooklet Hill on the other hand is a card only applicable in the Starmie archetype so I haven't played it in months (because I run Talonflame). Here are some changes I recommend you at least consider:
  [*]I know your deck runs on consistency, but Froakie is more or less useless after the start of the game so a lot of players (myself included), dropped its count down to 3 to make room for other cards.
  [*]Once again, I'm also aware you want all the consistency possible, but 3 Lillie is a little extreme. Given it's worked for you, there's not much I can say except at least try 2 Lillie, unless you have already done that.
  [*]Try and find a way to increase your Guzma count to three, and this is one I highly recommend you do. With VS Seeker gone, Guzma is simply too good in this deck to only run two, trust me. I have come across so many situations where having the ability to pull in your opponent's Pokémon either won or lost me the game. Greninja is literally a spread damage deck, so it's always a good idea to take kills on Pokémon like Tapu Leles for example because the math works out great (60+110 for a knockout).
  [*]This is a change I haven't made myself, but am seriously considering. Which is adding a 4th Choice Band, because Greninja can simply do so much more damage and math starts working out on high HP targets. With Field Blower out there and people constantly knocking out Greninjas, having that 4th one will come very handy in any game really.

Hey man, glad to see someone bringing something new to the table but also sticking to Greninja's roots (sorta a reference to Ash-Greninja at the end of XY anime). Good luck with your deck, and hope I was able to help!

Thanks so much for your reply!

About the changes you suggested:

• -1 froakie makes sense, now that I think of it 3 should be enough, as long as we dont start with only a starmie in play and cant find the first froakie, thats what im afraid of
• 1 Lillie for 1 Guzma, Ill definitely try that, I agree with all your arguments on this one
• The choice band I dont agree so much, I feel like in some matchups (like garbotoxin garbodor, which I face many times) Id rather have a 3rd field blower, cause the ability lock obviously destroys us and on the other hand I do t find choice band that key factor you said

 

[Trainer Josh]

• The choice band I dont agree so much, I feel like in some matchups (like garbotoxin garbodor, which I face many times) Id rather have a 3rd field blower, cause the ability lock obviously destroys us and on the other hand I do t find choice band that key factor you said

This change also makes complete sense! In many of my decks that are weak to Garbodor (due to ability heavy functions), I have already added the 3rd Field Blower you are talking about. Honestly, this wasn't something I had considered for Greninja because I don't face the Garbodor matchup that match. That being said, given Garbodor remains as popular it was last season I will likely make the change in my own deck.