Discuss competitive movesets in the 5th gen metagame.

RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

Gothitelle's biggest advantage over Dugtrio and Wobbuffet is that it gets coverage, letting it beat more threats. With just one move, it just seems really wasteful.

What else do you run on that team? I'm curious to see how you use it.
 
RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

That Gothitelle will never work because its role isn't to sweep, but to support for another sweeper. Gothitelle's stats are way too crappy for it to survive after killing the mon it setup on. Not only that but the monotype coverage and need for resttalk will fail you the most. The amount of support this set actually needs to sweep is also silly. You should instead stick with Specs and Scarf for their ability to remove walls / weather starters / other troublesome things for its teammates to go to town. That is how you run a trapper.

p much the point is if Gothitelle is the one who needs support, you don't get the point of Shadow Tag.

Comparing Goth to Suicune is bad. CroCune has better defenses, Water-type STAB (better than lol psychic), and an ability that let it beat most things that could take its +6 attacks (see: blissey). Above all else, Suicune wasn't in a metagame where everything hit like a fast nuke. Really terrible comparison lol.
 
RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

Jirachi @ Expert Belt
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 148 Atk / 204 SAtk / 156 Spd
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SDef)
- Iron Head
- Fire Punch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]

In this Jirachi resides a magnificent wallbreaker. While you normally see Jirachi tanking Hurricanes and D-Meteors, Wishpassing, U-turning, haxxing, or CM sweeping, this takes a far different approach. Fire Punch destroys Steel-types that normally switch into it and set up a blockade of hazards, like Forretress and Ferrothorn, HP Ice - very unexpected - kills Gliscor, Landorus and Dragonite. Thunderbolt nabs 2HKOes on bulky waters like Jellicent and Slowbro, Skarmory, and one-shots Gyarados. Iron becomes classic flinching win for what Jirachi is known for. The spread outspeeds Jolly Lando-T. (Blame Pocket for spread)

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 168 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SAtk)
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Waterfall
- Roar

Gyarados is often seen as a Moxie sweeper and quite often just that. While there is a defensive set on Smogon, this version takes a whole different approach in the speedcreep of the BW2 metagame. 168 Spe with a Jolly nature, while limiting physical bulk, outspeeds Jolly Breloom, who used to always incapacitate Gyarados with Spore and proceed to set up or Sub. This guarantees the Taunt that prevents Spore, SD and Sub or allows Thunder Wave. Roar is used over Dragon Tail because it is important to always get through Substitutes in this game. The two Magic Bounce users are the only ones this is counterproductive against, and one - Espeon - is taken out by Waterfall anyways. Thunder Wave spreads all paralysis and makes Gyarados the annoyer it is and is a great alternative to most T-Wave users, who are often weak to Ground or Fighting. Taunt is specific to Gyarados in its ability to prevent set-up in countless ways. Waterfall acts as STAB and ensures that opoosing Taunts don't screw it over.

*From Lavos Spawn*
Tornadus-T (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 88 Atk / 252 SAtk / 168 Spe
Naive Nature (+Spe, -SDef)
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast
- Heat Wave
- U-Turn

Introducing Scarf Tornadus-T, an incredibly underrated scarfer. This set aims to remove some of the increasingly common Pokemon in the metagame right now. This includes Genesect, Venusaur, Dragonite, Stoutland, Scarf Salamence, +2 Bulky Volcarona and even Scarf Garchomp. I've tested this set extensively and I have had very good success with it. It works especially well on weatherless, being able to overcome the problem that weatherless offense often has -- how to beat Sun and the Chlorophyll abusers. It's a fantastic scouter, and the extra speed it has over other common scarfers is the most notable thing. The speed investment puts you at 528, beating every other common scarfer in OU, while substituting some into Attack to add a little more power to U-Turn, which is always appreciated on offensive teams. Naive Nature is preferred over Hasty to take priority a little better, which most priority is physical, which helps with the extra bulk Tornadus-T has over the other Therians.

*From alexwolf*
Cobalion @ Expert Belt
EVs: 28 Atk / 230 SpA / 252 Spe
Nature: Naive
- Close Combat
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
- Stealth Rock / Stone Edge / Taunt

All out attacker Cobalion is very good actually. Check out some calcs:
HP Ice vs 252 Gliscor: 100.28 - 119.2%
HP Ice vs 200 Landorus-T: 102.71 - 120.86%
HP Ice vs 4 SpD Dragonite (w/o MS): 86.06 - 102.47%
HP Ice vs Naive Salamence: 114.5 - 134.74%
HP Ice vs 4 HP Breloom: 80.53 - 95.41%, ohko after SR, 1 LO round and ss damage while you easily tank one Mach Punch (69.96 - 82.97%)
Volt Switch vs 56 HP Gyarados: 82.02 - 97.39%, OHKO after SR and lefties
Volt Switch vs 252 HP Skarmory: 56.88 - 66.76%
Volt Switch vs 4 SpD Starmie: 62.45 - 74.32%
Close Combat vs 4 HP / 252 Blissey: 88.65 - 104.9%, ohko after SR
Close Combat vs 4 HP Terrakion: 100 - 117.9%
Close Combat vs 0 HP Heatran: 86.99 - 102.47%, ohko after SR 93.75% of the times

Cobalion is a very useful pivot for offensive teams, with it's useful resistances, awesome physical bulk and good speed. Cobalion is the closest thing you can get to a fast offensive Steel type that can keep momentum. He provides your team with a check to Outraging dragons, easily tanking even a +2 Outrage from all of them and ohkoing back with HP Ice. He also is a decent Gliscor / Landorus-T lure, as not many people expect HP Ice. He is also a wonderful Gyarados check, taking 52.01 - 61.3% from a +1 Waterfall and ohkoing back with Volt Switch (Gyarados can Sub up to take the Volt Switch, but then you get to go to your Scarfer that can outspeed and ohko Gyarados) after SR. Volt Switch is amazing for offensive teams, keeping momentum and damaging checks and counters, such as Starmie and Skarmory. He is also a very reliable SR setter, as his bulk allows him to set it up multiple times with ease. Finally a 4x resistance to SR, immunity to SS damage, Toxic and T-Spikes and no LO recoil mean that Cobalion is one of the most resilient pokes around.

In the last slot you can use Stone Edge if you alread have a SR setter, to break Gyarados's subs without switching out, deal better damage to Tornadus-T and Thundurus-T (the latter is ohkoes after SR) than HP Ice and prevent any Volcarona from setting up on you. Taunt is also a decent option to prevent any pesky Forretress, Skarmory and Deoxys-D from setting up on you.

*From Smogon user*
Moltres @ Life Orb
Modest, 252 SpA, 252 Spe
-Agility
-Hurricane
-Fire Blast
-HP Water

Ruins Heatran with HP Water in the rain while he can't do much back anyways, can set up on a plethora of pokemon which like to come in on rain AND resists bullet punch, ice shard and mach punch.

~AoH
 
RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

For Jirachi:
I see some potential hazards from fast dragons such as Garchomp and DDMence. If any of the two use a Yache Berry, then with a good EV spread they can outspeed Jirachi, take a turn to set up SW or DD, then OHKO with EQ (that's mainly for Garchomp). Also, what about Heatran? It needs 3 T-Bolts I think, unless you plan to 8HKO it with Iron and flinch (which I doubt).

For Gyarados: This guy still has the same old trouble of being destroyed by any electric attack. Thundurus can easily ruin it, and same goes for Jolteon (which is not very common, however). Good thing is that Roar saves you from annoying guys such as Water Absorb Jellicent or Storm Drain Gastrodon. Generally, though, this Gyarados can't dish out a lot of damage in my opinion, what with having no Atk EVs and only Waterfall as attacking move. So even if it doesn't lose easily, it's not capable of taking out as well.

For Tornadus: This guy is quite nice. I can't see much of a problem to it, except Scarf Thundurus, which is pretty rare to non-existent.

For Cobalion: I don't know. I mean, Cobalion's attack is not really rocking, and its Sp. Atk kinda sucks, so we're talking about a very mediocre attacker in my opinion. It can be beaten by ScarfChomp or Yache Garchomp fairly easy, and its Sp. Def makes it weak to most special stabs. No, I don't think this guy is very promising.

For Moltres: Well, that's a Special Sweeper. Again, Garchomp and Salamence take their pick, as they can easily beat it unless flinched by Air Slash. Same goes for Thundurus and most good Water types.
 
RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

I believe you're missing the point here. That Jirachi will never deal with Heatran, Garchomp or Salamence. It loses to them all in the first place. Just don't. The Gyarados, yes it will be destroyed by an Electric attack, but you would never stay in on one anyways. There is also no way to fix that without completely changing the set. Second on that is that this Gyarados is meant to para-shuffle, not deal obscene damage. Tornadus, yes you would face problems from Scarf Thun-T, but that's where U-turn comes in. Cobalion, look at the calculations. Those are what it is designed to get rid of. In NO way is it sweeping. Once again, a bulky offensive pivot and wallbreaker. Lastly, that Moltres does not come out until the very end, when it can spam the most powerful Hurricane in the game freely. All of those threats you mentioned will be gone by then or are is serious danger of being outsped and KOed by that Hurricane.

No offense, but you were stating the obvious on all five of those comments. Thought I might elaborate.

~AoH
 
RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

Well, on Jirachi you're probably right.
About Gyarados, yeah, I can see you're using it as a para-shuffler. I just thought that it might not be the best for the job. But of course, it also depends in the set you ran it.
I said Tornadus seemed pretty good in the first place. Same with Moltres. Yeah, I just stated the obvious.
Cobalion, I still am against it. Your calculations apply for a Naive DDMence. What if you face a Jolly or Adamant one (just asking here)? And I still don't know about Adamant ScarfChomp or Jolly YacheChomp. So, in other words it can be beaten by the very ones it's supposed to counter. Last, I still think that pretty much anything with an average Sp. Atk can beat it. A Water or Electric type especially.
Then again, I might be stating the obvious. Most probably you've considered most of the above and you plan to counter them with your set. I just pointed out what I see.
 
RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

That Moltres set is really cool AoH. Looks kinda like Rain Volc without Quiver Dance, but with STAB Hurricane (even though that isn't a very fair trade :p). I'll have to try it sometime.
 
RE: 5th Gen Competitive Movesets and Metagame Mach 2

@ChillBill: Cobalion OHKOs any Salamence without Defense investment. It isn't supposed to stay in on Garchomp though. It can't risk switching in on a Scarfchomp.

@Bippa: Very welcome.

Here's a few more I've stumbled upon. I forget which ones I made.

Zapdos @ Life Orb
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Thunderbolt (Thunder if rain team)
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice/Grass]
- Agility

Unlike any offensive Zapdos set, this one runs Agility over Roost, and is perfect for many kinds of things. He can be an early game, mid game or late game sweeper depending on the opponent's team and yours as well. One Agility is enough for Zapdos to either sweep for the win, or cause massive damage to the opponent's team before going down.

For Hidden Power, it really all depends on which you choose. But from my experience, Grass works for Gastrodon only and Ice is better for the whole OU, or just depends on how you build your team to counter specific Pokemon. I use Ice the most and works effectively well. Zapdos' best support mainly goes to a Fire-Type like mainly Infernape (with Choice Band or Scarf), or Heatran, etc etc. Though this set is not reliable for rain teams, unless you felt like changing things a little bit. That is all now. Happy sweeping.

Edit: Again, about Hidden Power, if you're gonna use Ice, make sure you have Ferrothorn with you too to go against dangerous threats like a banded Dragonite, Starmie if you're unboosted, Gastrodon, etc etc. If you want to be offensive, go with Celebi. Just make sure you got something to resist ice moves from deadly banded Ice Shard guys or something like that.

Scizor (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 80 HP / 116 Atk / 236 SAtk / 76 Spd
IVs: 30 Def / 28 SAtk / 30 Spe
Mild Nature (+SAtk, -Def)
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Roost

This one, I'm sure I created. It was made a few months ago in an effort to kill opposing Scizor fast. This spread OHKOes the standard CB Scizor while also giving HP Fire a Technician boost. The Speed gives it the ability to speedcreep almost any Scizor. Sure it takes a bit of power away, but I needed a surprise way to kill other Scizor. I'm not entirely sure if it works as well anymore.

*From Katakiri*
Hydreigon @ Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Tailwind
- Roost

Apparently Hydreigon got Tailwind in BW2 and to be honest, Hydreigon is almost everything I was looking for in a Tailwind user and imo it is the most reliable user of Tailwind around. Yeah Tornadus has Prankster but it can't switch in even half as often as Hydreigon. But as I was saying, Hydreigon works because there are so few things in this game that look at Hydreigon and go "I can switch into that" or "I can set up on that" and it becomes more of a "okay, what do I want to sack" situation.

To start: Modest Life Orb Draco Meteor; the end. Fire Blast for coverage is far better than what Latios can provide even if he wasn't Pursuit weak. Once Tailwind is up, just...forget your everything that could revenge Hydreigon without priority because it's not going to; not even Ditto can do anything. Probably the best thing about that coverage on Hydreigon is that the only Pokemon that really could switch in safely, bar the pink blobs, are Heatran and Tyranitar and even they are KOed by 2 Full-power Draco Meteors, if they're not running a defensive spread, which can easily be arranged by forcing them out with a switch after the first one.

Of course being at -2 from Draco opens some doors for some undesirable conditions but when Tailwind's up, Hydreigon's team is still at a major advantage as checks for some Pokemon become full counters now that they can out-pace them and for the most part it's all up to you about what you run with Hydreigon. Landorus and Jirachi can now curb-stomp the Base 108+s that would normally laugh at them, Mamoswine becomes terrifying, and Dragonite, who also gets Tailwind, becomes a borderline superhero. Those are just some examples of things that benefit greatly from Tailwind even for just 2 turns. I personally run Kyurem as Hydreigon's offensive partner for that deliciously potent Double Draco core with Earth Power & Focus Blast covering everything Hydreigon doesn't, including Rain Steels. (The strategy transferred over from it's Uber counterpart extremely well btw. I've been using it for almost a week now while being pretty high on the ladder.)

This set is just a blast to use and it works perfectly in that weird way that Agilitygross worked in 4th Gen but Tailwind makes it a team player.
Superpower can be used over Roost to deal with blobs, Heatran, and Tyranitar but losing that recovery is a hefty price.

Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Substitute

The combination of Will-O-Wisp and Substitute is fantastic (Will-O-Wisp hits, for example Politoed and Tentacruel who believe that they can without any damage, and W-O-W punishes them very well and Substitute is a very good move for Heatran because it have a lots of changes to put the Substitute thanks to its resistances). Fire Blast is a obvious STAB and Earth Power is here to hit the others Heatran and stuff that resists to Fire Blast. I suggest you to use this set, people.

*From Melee Mewtwo*
Rotom-Wash @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 112 Def / 148 SAtk
Modest Nature
- Volt Switch
- Hydro Pump
- Pain Split
- Thunder Wave


What does this set do? It's Rotom-W, one of the metagame's biggest threats since early BW. Its epic typing gives it strong STAB coverage, STAB Volt Switch, and nifty resistances that lets it switch into common attackers like Heatran and Mamoswine with ease. Volt Switch is its electric STAB that lets it scout out switch-ins keeping momentum for team 1. Rotom-W is forced to have Hydro Pump but that isn't a problem since it is a powerful STAB that can hit the ground types that would love to try to switch in on Volt-Switch. Pain Split is a gift from Rotom's former ghost typing and lets it sap HP from the opponent while healing up its own. Thunder Wave is pretty anti-metagame right now as almost every offensive pokemon that has the resistences to switch into Rotom's STABs won't like being crippled with Paralysis. WoW is cool move but Thunder Wave pretty much cripples everything a burn would and TechniLoom is still going to OHKO Rotom after while burned anyways.
This spread gives up outrunning max speed Adament Scizor and some useless SpDef bulk for the irrelevant Tornadus-T in exchange for enough physical bulk to always survive two Secret Swords from Scarf Keldeo even after SR damage and some extra power.
Calcs
252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 93-109 (30.69 - 35.97%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 112 Def Rotom-W: 118-139 (38.94 - 45.87%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 92-108 (30.36 - 35.64%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 72-86 (23.76 - 28.38%) -- possible 5HKO

It counters both Heatran and Keldeo while maintaining offensive pressure. What more can you want? Spreading Paralysis is also nifty as Kyruem-B can SubRoost stall some of its former checks into FP and grabbing extra boosts while not having to worry as much about getting revenge killed.

Breloom and Celebii are the only two offensive Pokemon that can repeatedly switch into Rotom-W's attacks while not being completely screwed over by Thunder Wave. Dragon types like Lati@s or Hydreigon can be used by being crippled with Paralysis means they won't be useful for much else.

Latios can switch into both of these somewhat well and give a punch back although it won't be liking Spore, Hidden Power Ice, or T-wave much. Tyranitar and Scizor can trap Celebii but have to be careful of HP Fire and Giga Drain/Leaf Storm. Weavile can do so as well but he is fragile and suffers from a SR weakness. Latias can be used over Latios for more bulk to switch in but at the cost of power. A Celebii of your own can take care of Breloom although Spore means it's going to have to switch out. Volcarona can switch into Breloom's STABs and pass a burn but it doesn't like Spore, Stone Edge, or Stealth Rock. Gengar doesn't fear Breloom's Fight STAB and resists the Grass ones but its frailty makes it kinda shaky. Mamoswine and Weavile can outrun Breloom and pick it off with STAB Ice Shard but they aren't switching into it. In general, a sleep talker would be a good thing to have so that all 6 members of the team can be kept to counter the opposing 6.

Keldeo @ Life Orb
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
-Taunt
-Surf
-Secret Sword
-Hidden Power [Ghost]

Keldeo is a unique pokemon, it is either impossible for a pokemon to switch into it, or a pokemon completely walls it/sets up on it (think garchomp/landorus/tyranitar/jolteon vs amoonguss/celebi/jellicent/dragonite)

The idea is simple, this little pony is very difficult to switch into, and thanks to taunt it can beat some of it's traditional "counters", some require prediction.

ie it can now beat Gastrodon and Jellicent switch ins, especially if you can predict the switch in (which is usually very obvious as most teams have 1 Keldeo "safe" switch in at most), taunt allows it to "sometimes" beat celebi, bulky latias and other counters depending on prediction and how much the counters have been hurt. Deoxys, focus sash mamoswine, forretress and various other pesty pokemon are all shut down by this variant of Keldeo. Taunt also allows it to prevent dragonite + gyarados + toxicroak setting up on it, which could be a very big headache. Finally it can taunt predicted spores/sleep powders/thunderwaves from pokemon such as breloom/roserade/celebi that usually tend to attempt to predict keldo switching out and use the appropriate status condition :)

Unfortunately life orb is necessary to be able to actually threaten a lot of pokemon as well as to score critical ohko's and 2hkos (such as standard breloom with SS, tornadus-t in rain w/ surf w/o rocks, 3hkoes most jellicent w/ hidden power) and hence makes Keldeo's life a lot shorter if it is teamed with its #1 partner (tyranitar).

~AoH
 
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