Counter That Pokemon! - Round 20

Professor Palutena

Professor Palutena

The Queen
Member
bippa2.png


Fancy calculator to help you out
READ OR DIE!​

Even though we have done this before, it's important to reread the rules this time around. Things aren't entirely the same.

The goal of this thread is simple. We are to try to counter threatening Pokemon in the metagame. This will help us improve our teams, and arm us with knowledge on beating top threats.

How will we do this, oh awesome Bippa? Well, it's simple. Every few days, I'll post a Pokemon set, which will begin a round. As a community, you have to come up with as many counters to that Pokemon as possible within the round limit. Only one counter per person please, and don't post the same counter as someone else.

Rules
-All forum rules imply, this should go without saying.
-You must include the entire set. Moves, nature, EVs, item and ability, as well as a sprite (Protip: Use the [ animate ] and [ sprite ] codes). No slashes. Just four moves.
-You must include an explanation on how your set counters that Pokemon. Without this, your post is meaningless. Damage calculations will help as well.
- Sets must be competitive and viable in OU. They must also not be crazy. As awesome as a counter it is to Double Dance Chople Terrakion, you're never going to be running Eviolite Gligar in OU. Think about it when you post. Am I really going to be using this Pokemon on my team? If not, try again.
- You are encouraged to praise sets you like. Inversely, you may also call people out if their sets stink (like they aren't a counter) as long as you do not flame/insult/bash the user. We're here to improve the community.
-For each set that isn't a counter, you will give Pride one point. There may or may not be a prize for most points, so don't let him get too many.

Before we get too excited, here is this word from the wise. You must know this for participation.

-To be considered a counter, a Pokemon must be able to switch into any of the opponent's moves under normal battle conditions, including taking damage from Stealth Rock, and reliably KO the opponent before the counter is KOed itself.
-To be considered a check, a Pokemon must be able to switch into at least one but not all of the opponent's moves under normal battle conditions, including taking damage from Stealth Rock, and reliably KO the opponent before the counter is KOed itself
-Deal with status conditions as follows: You will wake up after two turns of sleeping and you will hit three out of four times while paralyzed. Obviously, you can still attack while poisoned and burned (but make sure to factor them into your caclulations!), and you can't attack while frozen.
-Assume multiple hit moves (Bullet Seed, Icicle Spear, etc) hit three times, barring any modifications like the Skill Link ability.

Normal Battle Conditions
-Stealth Rock is up on the counter's (your) side of the field.
-Stealth Rock is not up on the featured Pokemon's (opponent's) side of the field.

The weather is handled as follows:
-If no weather is listed, the weather is assumed to be clear skies unless the counter has the ability Sand Stream, Snow Warning, Drizzle, or Drought.
-If the Pokemon to be countered can change the weather when a counter with a weather-changing ability comes in, the weather is situational and should be analyzed as such. For example, if the featured Pokemon is Drought Ninetales with Sunny Day and you list Politoed as your counter, you should evaluate the situation with two possiblities, rain or sun.
-If the Pokemon to be countered has a move such as: Thunder, Hurricane, Solarbeam or Blizzard, assume the favorable weather for the move.

Scoreboard
Each round, if you post a counter, you get a point. If you post the best counter (protip: use damage calculators), you'll get two points. If you post a counter that has already been posted, you won't get any points. If your set isn't a counter, you won't get any points. If you're Bippa, you start with 100 points

Chillarmy - 19
TPO3 - 15
The Yoshi - 11
TDL - 11
Shadow Scyther - 11
Pride - 9 points
doublenikesocks - 7
Emvee - 5
Dark Void - 5
PMJ - 4
bacon - 3
PellOfTheTundra - 3
AoH - 2
47bennyg - 2
Flys Gone 2071 - 2
PDC - 1

Round 1: Technician Breloom (see below)
Round 2: Choice Scarf Terrakion (post #32)
Round 3: SD Landorus-T (post #58)
Round 4: SubRoost Kyurem (post #85)
Round 5: 4 Attacks Thundurus-T (post #104)
Round 6: Toxic Spikes Tentacruel
Round 7: LO Tornadus-T (post #137)
Round 8: Rain SubCM Jirachi (post #159)
Round 9: Specs Heatran (post #179)
Round 10: 4 Attacks Keldeo (post #229 - Posted by Yoshi)
Round 11: Substitute Kyurem-B
Round 12: OTR Reuniclus
Round 13: Rock Polish Sheer Force Landorus-I
Round 14: Swords Dance Toxicroak
Round 15: Nasty Plot Celebi
Round 16: Offensive Mamoswine
Round 17: Offensive Infernape
Round 18: Offensive QD Volcarona
Round 19: Rapid Spin Custap Forretress
Round 20: Offensive Latias
Round 21: Offensive DD Dragonite
Round 22: Swords Dance Scizor

Round 1

Breloom @ Life Orb
[animate]breloom[/animate]
Ability: Technician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Stone Edge

One of the more difficult Pokemon to counter is Techiloom. While it isn't very versatile in its sets, there's no need to be when you pack the power it does. Between Spore, a 90 BP priority attack, a 50 BP Attack that breaks subs, and can hit up to 5 times (250 base power), and Stone Edge, switching into Breloom is hard. Yet, there are some Pokemon that are able to. Let's see if you can find them.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

My counter!

385.gif


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 100HP/252Atk/104Spe
Nature: Adamant
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Ice Punch
- Zen Headbutt

Okay, here we have a little Jirachi. With resistance on all but Mach Punch (which is x1), it can go in effectivley. And Breloom will try to get it to sleep without realising it's a Restalk set. Zen Headbutt hits Breloom with x2 Weakness and STAB, and Ice Punch hits for x1 with the extra effect of paralyzing. Rest is for when you have low HP and Breloom is paralyzed.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

How often would Jirachi actually have Rest + Sleep talk? If it was Suicune I could see that, but Suicune can't come in on it.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Yeah in terms of the restriction of "has to be viable in OU" and RestTalk Jirachi is at minimum questionable. Jirachi has access to Wish which is vastly superior to Rest/Talk and Zen Headbutt is not a metagame move and generally bad. It does do what it intends however, it does beat that breloom set handily.

Edit: Maybe not handily. Depending on the Bullet Seed count (4-5) and damage rolls, that Jirachi could be taken down through a combination of Bullet Seed on the switch and Mach Punch as a follow up.

Bullet Seed: 42-51
Mach Punch: 141-166
SR on the switch: 22
Jirachi HP before any attacks/sr: 367
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Yeah. For a flawless counter, you kind of need to assume the worst case scenario with maximum sleep rolls and Bullet Seed combos. This makes countering this particular Breloom surprisingly difficult, especially with Stealth Rock as a consideration.

Here's my set, I think it's both pretty viable and reliable.

Metagross @ Choice Band
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 4 HP, 252 Atk, 252 Spe

- Meteor Mash
- Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch
- Sleep Talk

If Breloom does not Spore, it dies. Metagross can live a x5 Bullet Seed followed by Mach Punch and OHKO with Meteor Mash/Ice Punch.

If Breloom uses Spore, Metagross can select Sleep Talk. It will OHKO with Meteor Mash or Ice Punch. If Metagross selects Hammer Arm, it deals 77.8% - 91.6% damage to Breloom. Assuming a minimum damage roll here, Breloom still dies because it needs to do 20% damage to itself via Life Orb to kill Metagross and also takes a pinch of Stealth Rock damage when it switches in.

Therefore, this Metagross will always take Breloom down with it, with only a small possibility of being taken down in the process.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Latias @ Leftovers
Bold Nature
Levitate
252 HP/248 Def/8 Spe

- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Psychic
- Recover

Fairly simple counter. Latias resists both of Breloom's STABs, and Stone Edge doesn't even 3HKO with Leftovers. Meanwhile, Psychic always OHKOs Breloom. Dragon Pulse there for secondary STAB, Calm Mind for boosting (a +1 Hidden Power Fire OHKOs Breloom as well, so if you can get a boost Hidden Power Fire is superior to Psychic), and Recover is there for recovery in case of a lengthened period of sleep.

Bullet Seed : 23% max damage w/ 5 hits
Mach Punch : 17% max damage
Stone Edge : 39% max damage
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

I don't know how you did the Bullet Seed calculation but it is not correct. It does 33-40 per hit which translates to 45%-54% of Latias HP with the Bullet Seed maximum of 5 hits. So Latias could be put to sleep on the switch and then 2hko'd by Bullet Seed while Latias is zzzzzzzzing.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

I think he forgot either Technician or Life Orb, possibly both.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Looks like we're going this route then

[animate]227[/animate]
Skarmory @ Shed Shell
Impish nature
252 HP 252 Def 4 SpDef
- Roost
- Brave Bird
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

Stone Edge is a 4HKO so barring a crit there's no way Breloom is getting past this. If Skarmory wants to roll dice with another 3-turn sleep he can Roost upon waking up to avoid suiciding when you use Brave Bird.

Shed Shell is there to stop trap trolling.

252 Atk Life Orb Breloom (+Atk) Stone Edge vs 252 HP/252 Def Skarmory (+Def) : 26.65% - 31.44%
4 hits to KO
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

[animate]472[/animate]
Gliscor @ Flying Gem
Trait: Sand Veil
Nature: Adamant (+Atk, -SpA)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-Swords Dance
-Acrobatics
-Substitute
-Earthquake

Well, this set is pretty straightforward. Offensively, this set can either focus on setting up a Substitute first so Breloom can't put it to sleep and then use Acrobatics, or just use Acrobatics right away, OHKOing Breloom with no doubt (since Gliscor out speeds this set). It doesn't even need Swords Dance, really: it just KOs it. However, if for some reason I tab fail, Gliscor can hold its ground against Breloom's attacks, taking neutral damage from Stealth Rock, Stone Edge, and Bullet Seed (and resisting Mach Punch).

The damage calcs show that Breloom has a slim chance to OHKO Gliscor after Stealth Rock (at least that's what the damage calcs say XP). Honestly, the only way Breloom could KO this thing is if I switched into it, it got lucky with five Bullet Seeds, and then KOd with Mach Punch. But otherwise, I would use Gliscor as a counter to Breloom any day. The only thing is that it is a little situational, but Gliscor holds its ground against other Breloom sets that lack Bulk Up. It's been a while since I used a damage calculator, so TDL anyone can call me out if I did something wrong, since I would like to learn from it if I made a mistake.

252 Atk Technician Adamant Life Orb Breloom vs. 0 HP/4 Def Adamant Flying Gem Gliscor
Bullet Seed: 74.22% - 87.62% (6.25% to KO after SR)
Mach Punch: 19.93% - 23.71%
Stone Edge: 44.32% - 52.23%

Also, with the same sets used above, Gliscor does 439.69% - 517.55% to Breloom; just barely an OHKO.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

A counter has to be able to switch into any move without being threatened. If he switches into Spore, he's done. If he switches into Bullet Seed, he has a chance of being OHKOed outright (as you have shown).
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

That is true. I suppose I should have thought more about the switch in. However, in my defense, Sleep Clause exists, and unless this is a 1 vs. 1 match, Breloom is likely to have put another Pokemon to sleep already, making Gliscor safe for the switch in. Also, although there is a chance for Gliscor to be KOd, Bullet Seed rarely gets 5 hits. Thank you for your input, though; your logic is probably better than mine.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

You have to assume that the opponent has just brought Breloom out and nothing has been put to sleep yet.

Once Sleep Clause has been activated, the list of Breloom's counters goes way up. Spore is the biggest threat.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

I don't see that on the normal battle condition list, but okay. Of course Spore is the biggest threat, but I can't just slap Sleep Talk on it and call it a counter. Though I suppose I could have thought of Lum/Chesto Berry, but then again that would be too situational.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Imagine that you are in a battle with Gastrodon out and they bring in Breloom.

Now you have to counter it.

The problem is making it competitively viable in OU, which is why you can't just say LOL SLEEP TALK and have it be legit.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Bullet Seed easily KOs that Gliscor on the switch, even without Stealth Rocks. Each hit does 72-85 damage, so it doesn't even need to hit 5 times. Even 3 could do it after SR and max damage. That Gliscor is definitely not a counter and is a check.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Yeah, I think the problem I experienced during this was not thinking about my Pokemon switching into the attack. Next time I will definitely think about it and come up with a better counter. ;D
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

[animate]251[/animate]
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 32 Spe
Nature: Bold
- Recover
- Thunder Wave
- Giga Drain
- Psychic

calcs:
Psychic on Breloom 112.2% - 132.8%
Stone Edge on Celebi 28.5% - 33.7%
Mach Punch on Celebi 12.9% - 15.3%
Bulled Seed x5 on Celebi 16.1% - 19.8%

Breloom really doesn't have much counters and most teams cover it by good prediction with something like Xatu or Dragonite with Lum Berry which are checks at best. This Celebi isn't the most popular set but it is one of best counters to Breloom as it isn't 3HKOd by anything that Breloom has and it can wait till it wakes up so it can OHKO with Psychic. Celebi is also faster and has Natural Cure so if you think your opponent won't Spore two times in a row expecting Celebi to switch you can go to another Pokemon.
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Pride said:
I don't know how you did the Bullet Seed calculation but it is not correct. It does 33-40 per hit which translates to 45%-54% of Latias HP with the Bullet Seed maximum of 5 hits. So Latias could be put to sleep on the switch and then 2hko'd by Bullet Seed while Latias is zzzzzzzzing.
Click to expand...

I got 17 HP per hit which maxes out at 85 HP. Maybe the calculator I'm using is bjorked...
 
RE: Counter That Pokemon!

Are you sure you're using a gen 5 calculator where Bullet Seed has 25 BP?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top