Discussion Can Water Toolbox survive without Seismitoad-EX?

LoneWolf2113

LoneWolf2113

Now With Sablenite!
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Hey gang,

As many of you already know a deck has popped up in the standard format and, as of today, July 3rd has taken Top 4 at the US National Championships. That deck is Water Toolbox. This deck centers around Water Pokemon, as the name implies, with Manaphy-EX allowing all Pokemon with water energy attached to retreat for free, and with Seismitoad-EX as its main attacker, blocking items with Quaking Punch and dishing out high damage with Grenade Hammer. A Primal Clash-on rotation has been confirmed and along with this rotation, Water Toolbox loses Seismitoad-EX. So my question for all the WaterBox players out there is: Can Water Toolbox continue to make an impact in Standard without Seismitoad, and if so, what will replace it?

Thanks for your time!
LoneWolf2113
 
personally, i thunk it will still be playable, but with take a more aggressive approach, rather then the slow item-lock approach it took before. possible main attackers as of the rotation would probably be either gyardos/mega gyardos, primal kyorge, of even kyruem ex from ancient origins
 
Without seismitoad ex this deck lost one of the best approach to play the game - item lock. 3 energy doing 140 dmg with belt can't be achieved by Palkia ex or Kyruem ex too. if this deck entered around regice and Glaceon ex, it is still not good in the coming format, due to the release of Pokemon ranger, which wash out all attack effects.

So i am sorry, this deck will just rotate out on sept
 
I played this deck the past few months.... Without seismitoad, it will suffer and most likely stop finishing in notable places in tournaments. However, I don't think it's completely dead.

From what I see, and the list I play, the legit only thing it loses is seismitoad. Glaceon and regice would struggle to run the deck on it's own, but I was thinking lugia ex isn't too horrible of an attacker. It easily fits in. I can also see kyurem ex fitting in as well. Possibly palkia.... Playtesting all of these will help decide if one is more superior and possibly provide some lost support from seismitoad. Plus who knows with the upcoming sets what could be released.

In the end I do feel that it will peter out and become irrelevant for the most part, but I plan on continuing to play it and improve on it. I don't feel that it's 100% dead.

I'm definitely curious to see what others think on this topic as well.
 
I actually just played a variant of this at Nats, going 4-1-4, losing only to a guy that went 7-0-2. The jolteon variant of this is strong, and toad can be replaced by vaporeon-ex for the 130 attack, but the item lock is definitely where toad shined. The 130 damage is only really relevant in the greninja matchup since 130+70 from glaceon-ex = 200, which is a greninja break 170 with a rough seas heal in between. The deck will definitely survive the rotation, but I don't think it'll be as prominent as it was at nats.

Without battle compressor, pokemon ranger would have to be a 2 of in decks to be even remotely relevant, and even then would require an OHKO or a VS seeker chain to actually get anything done. I just don't see that being a 2 of in any case.

Much more likely than pokemon ranger causing it problems will be giratina/darkrai (hydreigon-ex) surviving rotation and the possibility of M Mewtwo X becoming relevant. Attacks that aren't affected by any effects on the defending pokemon are this deck's worst nightmare post-rotation.
 
If the 130 damage attack is such a massive hole for the deck (I doubt another reliable lock like Quaking Punch will come around soon so really that's irreplaceable), what are thoughts on Ash-Greninja-EX rather than Vaporeon-EX? The only downside of its Ninja Blade attack for 130 (that Ash-Greninja-EX can't use it next turn) can be circumvented by Manaphy-EX.
 
I playtested with 2 Palkias and 2 Kyurem. It didn't do too badly, just suffers under item lock. Kyurem can be very annoying when set up, as evidenced by the poor Zygarde/Carbink/Vileplume player I played.
I don't see this deck being dead. It just drops a tier or two. Maybe even into the rogue deck range, as with Toad being gone, not a whole lot of people will see it coming.
 
Any thoughts on Suicune from Breakpoint?
It is a basic non EX Pokémon with 120 HP.
Its attack Aurora Beam does a solid 110 damage for 3 water energies, close enough to Grenade Hammer, and its ability is not awful.
I don't think it is good as Toad, since it can't be searched by Hoopa and it doesn't provide the powerful item lock that Toad has, but I think it is worth a try.
 
Tobo said:
Any thoughts on Suicune from Breakpoint?
It is a basic non EX Pokémon with 120 HP.
Its attack Aurora Beam does a solid 110 damage for 3 water energies, close enough to Grenade Hammer, and its ability is not awful.
I don't think it is good as Toad, since it can't be searched by Hoopa and it doesn't provide the powerful item lock that Toad has, but I think it is worth a try.
Click to expand...
Articuno does a better job and if you flip enough heads, you can take 2 prizes on a Carbink BREAK, for example. I personally like Kyurem EX because it denies your opponent the chance to attack and has the option of spread damage. This can be very useful against decks with low HP Pokemon.
 
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