OU: Pokémon Baton Pass In Testing

Chaos Jackal

Chaos Jackal

Legend of the Past
Member
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/xy-ou-suspect-process-round-3-baton-pass.3507765/

Looks like we have a complex ban ahead... Opinions?
Personally, I don't think Baton Pass chains should be banned. While Baton Pass is a powerful strategy, it's also one that requires skill to play properly, has counters, and its drawbacks.

Note:
-For now, discussion of ethics will be allowed alongside the topic of Baton Pass itself, but if it gets at all unruly that's it. ~Uralya
 
RE: Baton Pass on testing

This is the dumbest thing that I have ever seen. This "OU Tiering Coucil" seems, imo, to be so scared of every little thing and makes the OU scene, contrary to what their is trying to do, less "desirable." It's like when they banned that Klefki thing, Lucarionite, and Blazikenite (or was it Speed Boost Blaziken?). There are plenty of options to add to your strategy in order to counter these sets and Pokémon, including Baton Pass sets.

Maybe that's just me.
 
RE: Baton Pass on testing

Momaster12 said:
This is the dumbest thing that I have ever seen. This "OU Tiering Coucil" seems, imo, to be so scared of every little thing and makes the OU scene, contrary to what their is trying to do, less "desirable." It's like when they banned that Klefki thing, Lucarionite, and Blazikenite (or was it Speed Boost Blaziken?). There are plenty of options to add to your strategy in order to counter these sets and Pokémon, including Baton Pass sets.

Maybe that's just me.
Click to expand...

Please tell me why you think banning Swagplay, Mega Luke, or Blaziken last gen wasn't a good decision.
 
RE: Baton Pass on testing

It's the highly competitive mindset setting in again. That's how it's been with the decisions of Smogon. While we can't clearly argue about the principles of banning without a flame war emerging, the idea is to solidify a metagame that satisfies the competitive players. There's an obvious difference between the mindsets of competitive players (aka elitists in some cases) and casual players (aka scrubs in some cases). What I see Smogon doing here is using a scrub approach to handle a competitive problem - "ban it if it's cheap!" if you will. Really does suck that they want to do it this way, but it happens.

The choices being "do nothing", "limit it", or "kill Scolipede and Espeon", I would pick the second option. While I don't want to see BP die, putting a limit on it might be the best community choice - as with a lot of decisions, sometimes you have to compromise and please the majority. The majority of the competitive scene, much like the YuGiOh community I know so well, gets butthurt easily. It's a stereotype that is also well-deserved. BP is the butthurt engine of Pokémon, and I guess they finally had a council who likes this approach. From what I see, the competitive players in the thread are all saying "limit it!" So, at least they only want a nerf.

And @momaster:
SwagPlay: inherent rage machine, actually successful, publicized, hyped, banned because butthurt
Mega Luke: broken sweeper is broken, obviously the majority wants it gone
Blaziken: same as Lucario, and BP made it all the worse
 
Ban baton pass + magic mirror on the same team :3

Obviously this is a very complex ban and wouldn't happen, but hehe it would nerf it alright.
 
Well, as I said before, unlike SwagPlay, Baton Pass actually requires skill to use. As Uralya mentioned, limiting the number of BP users in a team is a good decision; going for a complex ban on specific combinations of abilities or attacks isn't a good idea. A limitation could do the thing, but I still wouldn't like to see it nerfed greatly (and to think I've never played BP).
 
Chaos Jackal said:
Well, as I said before, unlike SwagPlay, Baton Pass actually requires skill to use. As Uralya mentioned, limiting the number of BP users in a team is a good decision; going for a complex ban on specific combinations of abilities or attacks isn't a good idea. A limitation could do the thing, but I still wouldn't like to see it nerfed greatly (and to think I've never played BP).
Click to expand...

Funnily enough, I don't know what's going to be the more controversial topic here: Baton Pass itself or the ethics of the way they're handling this.

might just want to ready the popcorn guys In all seriousness, for now, discussion of ethics will be allowed alongside the topic of BP itself, but if it gets at all unruly that's it.
 
Baton Pass does not require skill...

It's utterly match-up dependent. BP either automatically wins or automatically loses depending on the setup of the opposing team. It's not like other archetypes where you can overcome an unfavourable match-up by playing your cards right.

BP doesn't require a player to make judgement calls about when to stack hazards VS when to attack. It doesn't require a player to carefully whittle down counters to pull off a sweep. It doesn't even require a player to team build because all BP teams are basically identical.

BP is a steaming pile of goat shit and doesn't belong in any fair metagame.
 
I would argue that efficiently using baton pass does require skill, but that this skill curve plateaus soon after you reach a moderately "above-average" skill level. Not everybody can pick it up and play it successfully, but I agree with Sam in all of his second, third, and fourth paragraphs.
 
Using Baton Pass is a Trial or Error scenario.

There's a handful of counters to this, thanks to X & Y's balancing. First off, you can Encore the foe to oblivion for a few turns if they dare to set up a Substitute or a Calm Mind/Swords Dance if they're using a Substitute.

Second, Pokémon with Infiltrator can attack enemies behind their Substitute. Using the likes of Chandelure is recommended for this, since it can hit very hard.

Third, sound-based attacks can get pass Substitutes. Pixilate Sylveon with Hyper Voice is all that there needs to be said.

I'm no expert on competitive fields, so these are my two (Or should I say, three) cents on the matter.
 
DISCLAIMER:
THE BELOW MATERIAL ARE ALL OPINIONS ONLY AND ARE IN NO WAY INTENDED TO HARM, INSULT, OR ATTACK ANYONE! IF YOU GOT OFFENDED, I'M SORRY. HOWEVER, I'M ENTITLED TO MY OPINIONS JUST AS MUCH AS YOU ARE.


CF1994 said:
Using Baton Pass is a Trial or Error scenario.

There's a handful of counters to this, thanks to X & Y's balancing. First off, you can Encore the foe to oblivion for a few turns if they dare to set up a Substitute or a Calm Mind/Swords Dance if they're using a Substitute.

Second, Pokémon with Infiltrator can attack enemies behind their Substitute. Using the likes of Chandelure is recommended for this, since it can hit very hard.

Third, sound-based attacks can get pass Substitutes. Pixilate Sylveon with Hyper Voice is all that there needs to be said.

I'm no expert on competitive fields, so these are my two (Or should I say, three) cents on the matter.
Click to expand...
I can see both sides of this issue. What what you said is true, and that there ARE a fair number of counters, Magic Coat Espeon renders many of them useless. This leave Prankster users to out-prioritize a Baton Pass into Espeon or Haze away stat-ups. This said, Hyper Voice Sylveon isn't exactly the rarest sight. Getting around subs with a 175.5 base power fairy attack (this is already applying Pixelate boosts and STAB) is gonna leave, at worst, a mild dent in something even if it gets resisted.

Honestly, I don't particularly love singles of any tier, namely because they all seem to follow the same trend that the TCG (both Yugioh and Pokémon) follows: use meta stuff, or you lose, and if you use anything else, you're automatically a scrub. And the sad part is, that mentality is USUALLY right (but not always). I feel that many people are so focused on the top meta pokemon for their respective tiers, they fail stray away from their comfort zone and come up with their own innovative strategy, so rather than think up something that COULD work, it's just far easier to ban it. Now Mega Gengar/Kangaskan/Lucario are bans I can understand. They all lopsided the meta. SwagPlay (and Baton Pass), however, are grey areas. They're powerful stratagies, yes, but there ARE ways to counter them.

The thing is ANY meta (whether it's Yugioh or Pokémon) is this; It is NEVER truly balanced. However long it takes, people WILL find the magic gun/bullet combination that just simply trumps everything else. If you ban that major combo, another magic combo will be found. Then THAT will be banned, and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. Some formats like VGC are more flexible because the difference between "top teams" isn't all that great and pivots on one's play-style and prediction. Singles, however, don't have this luxury, and while it's not near as bad as Yugioh, it still follows the typical Yugioh mentality. You take something that's meta and play it the way it's SUPPOSE to played, or you lose. Using anything different or trying to follow your own play-style automatically gets you labeled as a scrub.

Now please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not saying that Singles of any particular tier is a horrible format and takes no skill. That's not it at all. There's fun to be had in any meta. How you choose to pursue it is up to you. However, I do NOT agree with Smogon's "butthurt" approach to this. It feels to me that this is their way of handling things that their own teams can't handle. Banning these "cheap" threats just seems to be their way of saving themselves the headache of trying to figure out a viable way around it. As a former TCG player, I can confess that there was a time when I had this exact same mentality. The difference between the TCG and Smogon OU metas, however, is that in the Pokémon TCG, you can complain all you want, but your complaints will have zero effect on the current meta. This is what led me to take on a different mentality: Rather than spend so much time complaining about what can't be changed, it's far more efficient to simply look deeper into what available to you that could counter the bane of your existence while still being consistent. In Smogon OU, however, complaining ALWAYS seems to change the meta. If a top pokemon/team becomes used too much, you can simply rage and it'll go away. This isn't honorable at all. I have full respect for legitimate trainers that use their time to strategize and come up with new possibilities, whether they use a default meta team or not. I DO NOT respect those that believe in raging and flaming for change.

Dealing with top meta threats, be they specific Pokémon, cards, mechanic, or even teams themselves, is something that will always be a requirement if you want to succeed. The sooner this is accepted, the better that ALL of our gaming communities could be.



DISCLAIMER:
THE ABOVE MATERIAL ARE ALL OPINIONS ONLY AND ARE IN NO WAY INTENDED TO HARM, INSULT, OR ATTACK ANYONE! IF YOU GOT OFFENDED, I'M SORRY. HOWEVER, I'M ENTITLED TO MY OPINIONS JUST AS MUCH AS YOU ARE.
 
Wes1234 said:
DISCLAIMER:
THE BELOW MATERIAL ARE ALL OPINIONS ONLY AND ARE IN NO WAY INTENDED TO HARM, INSULT, OR ATTACK ANYONE! IF YOU GOT OFFENDED, I'M SORRY. HOWEVER, I'M ENTITLED TO MY OPINIONS JUST AS MUCH AS YOU ARE.


CF1994 said:
Using Baton Pass is a Trial or Error scenario.

There's a handful of counters to this, thanks to X & Y's balancing. First off, you can Encore the foe to oblivion for a few turns if they dare to set up a Substitute or a Calm Mind/Swords Dance if they're using a Substitute.

Second, Pokémon with Infiltrator can attack enemies behind their Substitute. Using the likes of Chandelure is recommended for this, since it can hit very hard.

Third, sound-based attacks can get pass Substitutes. Pixilate Sylveon with Hyper Voice is all that there needs to be said.

I'm no expert on competitive fields, so these are my two (Or should I say, three) cents on the matter.
Click to expand...
I can see both sides of this issue. What what you said is true, and that there ARE a fair number of counters, Magic Coat Espeon renders many of them useless. This leave Prankster users to out-prioritize a Baton Pass into Espeon or Haze away stat-ups. This said, Hyper Voice Sylveon isn't exactly the rarest sight. Getting around subs with a 175.5 base power fairy attack (this is already applying Pixelate boosts and STAB) is gonna leave, at worst, a mild dent in something even if it gets resisted.

Honestly, I don't particularly love singles of any tier, namely because they all seem to follow the same trend that the TCG (both Yugioh and Pokémon) follows: use meta stuff, or you lose, and if you use anything else, you're automatically a scrub. And the sad part is, that mentality is USUALLY right (but not always). I feel that many people are so focused on the top meta pokemon for their respective tiers, they fail stray away from their comfort zone and come up with their own innovative strategy, so rather than think up something that COULD work, it's just far easier to ban it. Now Mega Gengar/Kangaskan/Lucario are bans I can understand. They all lopsided the meta. SwagPlay (and Baton Pass), however, are grey areas. They're powerful stratagies, yes, but there ARE ways to counter them.

The thing is ANY meta (whether it's Yugioh or Pokémon) is this; It is NEVER truly balanced. However long it takes, people WILL find the magic gun/bullet combination that just simply trumps everything else. If you ban that major combo, another magic combo will be found. Then THAT will be banned, and the cycle just keeps repeating itself. Some formats like VGC are more flexible because the difference between "top teams" isn't all that great and pivots on one's play-style and prediction. Singles, however, don't have this luxury, and while it's not near as bad as Yugioh, it still follows the typical Yugioh mentality. You take something that's meta and play it the way it's SUPPOSE to played, or you lose. Using anything different or trying to follow your own play-style automatically gets you labeled as a scrub.

Now please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. I'm not saying that Singles of any particular tier is a horrible format and takes no skill. That's not it at all. There's fun to be had in any meta. How you choose to pursue it is up to you. However, I do NOT agree with Smogon's "butthurt" approach to this. It feels to me that this is their way of handling things that their own teams can't handle. Banning these "cheap" threats just seems to be their way of saving themselves the headache of trying to figure out a viable way around it. As a former TCG player, I can confess that there was a time when I had this exact same mentality. The difference between the TCG and Smogon OU metas, however, is that in the Pokémon TCG, you can complain all you want, but your complaints will have zero effect on the current meta. This is what led me to take on a different mentality: Rather than spend so much time complaining about what can't be changed, it's far more efficient to simply look deeper into what available to you that could counter the bane of your existence while still being consistent. In Smogon OU, however, complaining ALWAYS seems to change the meta. If a top pokemon/team becomes used too much, you can simply rage and it'll go away. This isn't honorable at all. I have full respect for legitimate trainers that use their time to strategize and come up with new possibilities, whether they use a default meta team or not. I DO NOT respect those that believe in raging and flaming for change.

Dealing with top meta threats, be they specific Pokémon, cards, mechanic, or even teams themselves, is something that will always be a requirement if you want to succeed. The sooner this is accepted, the better that ALL of our gaming communities could be.



DISCLAIMER:
THE ABOVE MATERIAL ARE ALL OPINIONS ONLY AND ARE IN NO WAY INTENDED TO HARM, INSULT, OR ATTACK ANYONE! IF YOU GOT OFFENDED, I'M SORRY. HOWEVER, I'M ENTITLED TO MY OPINIONS JUST AS MUCH AS YOU ARE.
Click to expand...

I take no offense to this at all, since as we both said, we're entitled to our opinions.

You have raised some legitimate points are just as good, if not, better than mine.
 
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