You mean like how you dismissed my point that you seem to act like you have absolute knowledge of developers intent and design? Because what it looks like is string of complaint after complaint over something you seem to dislike, disguised as a complaint about business design and backed up with arguments that don't make sense on an actual timeline. That's why I'm done. You ignore obvious time-specific data, despite saying you "can't argue with data." Are ninjas popular? Yes. So are knights and mages. Did Greninja get cool abilities? Yes. So did the other starters. However, a metagame isn't created by developers. They just put the tools into the hands of the players, then the players develop the metagame through trial and error. There are things that clearly work better or more consistently than others, but that doesn't mean it was specifically "designed" to be better. Your entire first argument was how Greninja was forced on us, and how we didn't have a choice in its popularity. It hasn't been nearly so forced as Zoroark or Lucario, as you're making it appear though. Lucario had a trainer that looked like it and got a movie. Zoroark was hinged on download events and also had a film appearance. Here we are, two years later, and sure it's in smash, but a year after X and Y. Sure it's getting a new skin, but TWO years after X and Y. You said the popularity was forced, without fans having had the time to appreciate it. Two years isn't enough time for you? For someone who says you can't argue with data, you seem to be doing exactly that, and still somehow complaining that less marketable assets aren't given the same treatment. That's why I said I'm done. Greninja's had time to build its own reputation, and business will be business. That's the plain fact.
Ash-Greninja-EX Revealed in 'CoroCoro!'
- Thread starter Water Pokémon Master
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I didn't dismiss your post. I answered it the best way I could. You pretty much laughed in my face. When I see a design like Greninja and then look at Delphox and Chestnaught, as an artist I got a vibe that said "yep, this is an obvious marketing push". A lot of people on the net seem to agree with this. I haven't made one single claim about business but you did, so I responded to it. I simply said fabricated popularity isn't the same as legit popularity, something a lot of Pokemon have. My point was there Pokemon are popular despise having support from the parent company, like some do have.
What is time specific data here? From my own knowledge, Greninja has been marketed extremely heavily since it was revealed and even had a spot on the smash roster before the public even knew of it. This was years before Smash 4 so when I say it was designed to do well, I wouldn't be lying. Again, why not Delphox or Chestnaught? I don't care they they are doing what business do but I'm talking legit fan love rather made love. Clefairy was made to be popular but Pikachu took the spotlight. Sure I hate the way Pikachu is being marketed but this wasn't intended. The fans loved it and it became the mascot.
I'm also not talking about a meta. A number of things go into it and most people don't play competitive Pokemon so that is a small factor - something under 10%. I just don't understand how you don't that Greninja was design to do well when most others can see it. The difference between Greninja is Zoroark is Zoroark failed to be what Lucario was. Zoroark was designed to be cool but it failed to do so. Greninja isn't designed to be a new Lucario but to be something along the line of Charizard. Dragons aren't as cool as they used to be but guess what, Ninja frogs were at the time (looking at Naruto here) which focused well with children and most others in general.
You also seemed to missed the part where I said Greninja was to be in Smash 4 before any news of it was released to the public on it. This was at Greninja's concept art stages, before XY even finished its development. To others who noticed this, it was a obvious push on this Pokemon, i.e. being forced on the fans, which isn't any real love. Sure people like this Pokemon but don't confuse it with actual popularity that other Pokemon do have.
Simple question. You said Greninja was planned years, specifically your word, "years," before Smash 4. Plural. What data supports this? Even if it was planned in XY's development cycle, why such a huge push against a so-called "fabricated" popularity? What makes popularity "legitimate?" Honestly, your words make it sound less like business and more like a prom-queen discussion. And why is it even somehow impossible for there to be legitimate fans, regardless of how much it's pushed? You seem to be acting like Zoroark failed, in part at least, because it was pushed and forced. Yet it was still, according to you, rejected. So by that same logic, somehow Greninja cannot be genuinely appreciated, just because it's well designed, asthetically and competitively? Sure. I'm sure that's how it works. It's impossible for someone to genuinely appreciate something that's marketable. And now you're saying dragons aren't "cool?" Well, a lot of design seems to turn that assumption upside-down too, as Charizard was the only starter to receive two mega evolutions, and more recent cards than the other starters in XY sets. Then another set revolved around dragons, greatly boosting their presence in competition. So yeah, some things just aren't cool anymore, and there's no genuine love for anything marketable. Keep telling yourself that, and I'll keep genuinely enjoying things for my own reasons. At its simplest level, I don't get why you're so dead-set on some made up difference between "fabricated" and "legitimate" popularity. You act like it matters. Some things are popular, some aren't but they still have fans. Why does it matter? And really, how is popularity "fabricated" in the first place? You said yourself ninja-frogs were already popular. Therefore, it wasn't fabricated, it just appealed to an already growing demographic. What about that makes the popularity less legitimate? Were Mewtwo's ten cards made so that Mewtwo would be popular, or because it already was popular? Even if Greninja was already on smash's roster, why does that make its fame somehow fake? I said before it's a business. They made their decisions based on what IS popular. They didn't invent popularity for something. You already said that exact method didn't work for Zoroark, so why do you think it somehow worked this time? Yes, Greninja isn't another Lucario, but it is something popular. But did popularity get made for Greninja, or was greninja just a popular idea? What makes that fake?
Well, its not my words but Sakurai's - or someone he worked closely with. Here's the quote “Actually, you know, we had a conversation within our development staff quite before that. We said “Hey, listen take a look at this, Greninja, and see is this a character that we think would work well and we had that session well in advance of X and Y. And you know, of course, since we did this way, again, way in advance of X and Y we… we’re doing it… sort of our reference materials were just some drawings at that point. The character that we’re seeing in the game right now is something that I took a really, pretty heavy hand in working on, again, because some of the information did come in late for us.”
You can google it yourself if you like. Pretty much everyone thinks he designed Greninja or at least gave imput to it. To me, Popularity was always something subjective and I'm picky on what I consider popular. When something is designed to do well and it does, its doesn't really matter to me. Popularity has always been something that the fan came up with, not the company. This is why so many Pokemon do well, because they don't have the support of the company. Some do benefit from this when something is designed to be popular, I just can't call it popular when there are other Pokemon that really deserved it. Greninja doesn't have legitimate fans but they are hard to find. I just don't see the same for it, like people do for Hawlucha or even Goodra.
I'm also not acting like Zoroark fail... It did fail. TPC/i is still investing in it but its not working. Zoroark isn't a special Pokemon - its just a Pokemon, like the rest of them except the marketing didn't work for it. As for Charizard, it will still be a cool Pokemon but ninja frogs were cooler. Sure Charizard got 2 megas but I think thats due to them liking both designs and not wanting to scrap anything. No proof of that but as an artist myself, I don't scrap ideas. I use them all in some way.
Well, I focus on legitimate and fabricated like the rest of use do. Would you consider someone who did illegal things to make their money legit when you have to work hard for your? How would it make you feel that you 'earned' what you have but this guy who breaks laws has much more than you? Or how about something related to Pokemon. What if someone traded a little kid a 2 dollar reshiram because legendary for his 100 dollar secret rare ultra ball? Is this legit because according to the rules of trade, it is - both people agreed. I look at it much the same so why is one standard fine and not the other? At the end of the days popular is popular, money is money and a trade is a trade right?
With mewtwo's 10 ultra rare cards, it seemed forced to me, No reason to have that many in a set and yes, they did do that but when it comes to greninja, all the evidence points to a pokemon designed to do well, which was my original point.
P sure it is ultimately all about marketing like Greninja, cool as s/he/they are was generated to be a mascot from the onset. Its popularity after release was confirmation of this, the company fed back into it, etc etc. The usual cynical advertising/money tactics. It's circular and standard, unfortunately. Wish there was integrity!
Card is awful.
Card is awful.
What I don't understand is what you define as "legitimate" popularity vs "fabricated." For one, you're trying to turn it into a legal-vs-illegal analogy, but doing so implies that something is inherently wrong with Greninja's fame. Sure, I'll concede that Greninja was probably designed to do well. Sure, it seems to have been planned for Smash from the onset. Those points, I seem to be wrong on and I'll admit that. However, that doesn't make something fake. You said it yourself that the ninja-frog-fad was already a thing. So going back to my point, why does that simple fact make it illegitimate? I mean, look at the other options for starters to go into Smash. Delphox? Nah. Smash already has Charizard, a more popular fire-type. Chesnaught? Looks like it could be made a Bowser clone. Greninja seemed to offer something newer and unique to Smash's Pokemon roster. And somehow, all this makes it fake? What absolute measure of judgment are you even using to make that call? What gives you, or any of us fans for that matter, to decide what is "real" and what is "fake" in terms of Pokemon's fandom? Ninja frogs were already a thing, and the devs rolled with it. That's not necessarily fake, it's just business. And if you've never been in a position to make such business-minded marketing decisions, how much authority do you really think you have to determine what businesses should do? You know what would have happened if Greninja wasn't as popular as the devs hoped? It could have just as easily been removed from Smash. There was quite the time delay between Smash and XY, so it could have been done. Other planned characters didn't make it into Smash for one reason or another, big deal. So Greninja made it in. It could have missed the cut had it not gained the popularity on its own webbed feet first.
And sure, Mewtwo's ten-card fiasco may be excessive, but really, who does it affect? Collectors? Sure. Players? Nah, makes it easier to get Mewtwo cards. Personally, I think the presence of regular, reverse foil and full art cards are all unnecessary. But to I rant for pages on end about how people who foil and full-art their decks are just buying into a flashy, fake status symbol? No, because that's not what the game is about.
Well, that was my point. I don't care if its doing well or not but a company can't decide what is popular in their own franchise, the fan decide. If the company is trying to push it on someone, they are swaying public opinion and when they do, they can't say so and so it popular when from the start that was their goal. Like I said, Clefairy was suppose to be the mascot but the fans love Pikachu much more. Now if Greninja just came out of nowhere in popularity by the fans, then sure the company can use that, like they did with Mewtwo and largely Charizard. Also on the Smash thing, EVERYONE though Greninja's reveal was Mewtwo. They set it up to where it looked like Mewtwo, then bam, A pokemon uses the image of a popular Pokemon to boost itself. Again, this was all planned. Like I said before, when you looks at Delphox, Chestnaught and Greninja, which one do you think people would like? Its just a matter of integrity here. Its not a matter of illegal vs legal or what a fair trade is, its a matter of standards.
With the Mewtwo card thing, it affects a lot of people. Of course it makes no big deal but I'm a big kid when it comes to opening packs and because I can get only mewtwo a great amount of the time, why would I waste my money. Options are always good for games. When Pidgeot EX and m Pidgeot EX gets printed, I'm going to full art/ secret rare my entire deck, because I love the Pokemon. Sure Mewtwo fans are happy, but not everyone is a mewtwo fan. Fake in the case isn't the same thing because there are other options available to get. You don't have to foil your entire deck.
And you don't HAVE to like Greninja. The point I'm making is that yes, it's clearly a thought-out design. However, that doesn't make it automatically forced. What actions were taken that lack integrity? How are you even defining the word, "integrity?" Cuz it looks to me like you're just playing the role of hipster here, acting like something being mainstream is inherently a bad thing. What about this marketing shows wrongdoing on the devs part? Every generation has had this going on, it's not new. Name a single generation where all three starters got the same love from fans on the whole. Heck, not even the whole fan base. Name a single generation where you personally loved every single Pokemon design. This isn't an integrity issue. Integrity implies honesty. This isn't something that devs lied about, it's just basic business logic. I'm surprised you actually like Pokemon at all, given how anti-marketing you are acting.
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I have this strange sense that activates whenever a new card is revealed. I dunno. I can just FEEL it.
But this one was not worth feeling
But this one was not worth feeling
Loving satoshi greninja more & more every passing day cant wait to own this card!! its the mix of greninja having a sick design, mixed with my love for Naruto .. best of both worlds!!
When I mean integrity, I mean the company should stay out of the public when it comes to things like this. Let nature takes course. Let the fan speak as to what they like, rather than forcing an idea on them. NOW if TPC/i feels a Pokemon should have more attention, then sure, market towards it so the fans see it. TPC/i should want to protect their characters. Its not a matter of something being mainstream but when people call Greninja popular, I question it because a Pokemon like Pidgeot is popular and earned it (or other popular Pokemon here) who don't have attention from TPC/i but the fans support it, as it should be. I just want people to recognize that just because a company designs a 'fad' doesn't mean it is just because its so in your face.
As for which generation I like, I like the designs of many Pokemon from each generation. Some are stronger than other but TPC/i has always put all 3 starters in the public eye. Ash always had all 3 in some combination or was around a team mate who had them but lately it's only about Greninja, which is a pokemon designed to do well. Yes integrity implies honesty but do you really thing TPC/i call Greninja popular honest when they has been exclusively marketing Greninja as opposed to the other 2 or any other non Pikachu, Charizard, Lucario and Mewtwo Pokemon?
So, by your own logic, Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo and Lucario also deserve no popularity. And again, I point out that Greninja being "shoved in people's faces" didn't start happening until at least a year after release. I already mentioned that, while planned for smash, it could have been removed if it proved a flop. There was plenty of time to do so. And complaining that it's recntly pushed is a moot point, since now it's been here for over two years. That's what I mean by time-specific data. It's had time to stand on its own, it got popular, and now it's a center of marketing. Similar to how you mentioned Clefairy was supposed to be the original mascot, but between Japan's original Red and Greed versions and our own Red and Blue versions, Pikachu proved more popular, causing a shift in advertising's focus. All this "in your face" business, ultimately, sounds like a great big hipster complaint at its root. Every complaint you have about "legitimate" popularity just doesn't make sense, as there was every opportunity to shift if Greninja did happen to flop, but it didn't. Yes, it's pushed NOW, but aside from a vague announcement of who was planned for Smash, what "push" happened for Greninja in the first year of its life? How was the ninja-frog fad force fed to fans before now? If there is something, do tell, because I don't recall seeing any special treatment outside of one spinoff game's possible roster. Until that can be proven, all you're going to look like is someone who just wants to play the hipster and dislike something because it did become big.
Just want to mention before the final stage starters were revealed, Fennekin was the most popular and look at how it ended...
Fighting Spirit Belt only works on basics. Muscle Band only affects damage on the active (and the same probably goes for spirit belt), so neither work.
Ash-Greninja EX is (according to the OP) a Basic