P!P/Rules Are prize cards a good mechanic for a TCG?

[judekevinchu]

Also, to add, Pokémon could also use a real mulligan rule (like Magic) so if you get a bad hand you can shuffle and redraw 1 less card even if your hand has Pokémon in it. Furthermore, like someone said above, you should have 15-card sideboards (like Magic) for competitive play, so you don't have to include specific anti-deck tech just on the chance of facing a deck of that type.

The trifecta of no mulligan, no sideboard, and prize cards instead of a KO counter makes Pokémon TCG the most luck-based TCG out there, and easy to tell why Magic: the Gathering is the biggest TCG with the most proper competition.

You can't make the same mulligan rules on the same TCG as it have different mechanics. On Pokemon TCG, you can't start a game without a basic pokemon, and applying that mulligan rule from MTG will make games unplayable for that player.

The sideboard thing though, is the one I will agree.

 

[Otaku]

And I messed up and had to edit my previous post, including the final three points (posted after just answering one of four from what I was quoting >_<).

Almost out of time so I'm going with a general point for both sides of this discussion:

Don't get bogged down in specifics.

"We need X because of Y!" ignores that there might be no reason for Y to be in the game in the first place.

"Game A does this!" requires explaining how well it works in Game A, and exploring how it would translate to Pokémon... and unless it is about maintaining a healthy level of game variance, then it probably doesn't apply. I am thinking Side Boards and new mulligan rules are better off in a different discussion.

 

[iwantcandy2]

I play A LOT of card games, and one thing that Pokemon has over every other card game is the ability to get the card you need when you need it. Cards like Skyla, Steven, Pokemon Fan Club, etc, all allow you to grab the cards you need with relative ease. This is unheard of in other card games. In games like Magic, that same ability is probably best reflected in the card "Diabolic Tutor," which costs 4 mana, which is a lot of resources and means typically you won't be able to search your deck for anything until turn 4. Even their equivalent of Professor's Letter, the fetch lands, are highly sought after and usually much more expensive. If you look at how many lands a typical competitive Magic deck runs compared to Energy in Pokemon, you can see a clear discrepancy. Magic decks run anywhere from 10-20 lands, whereas most Pokemon decks cap at about 10 Energy.

Because of Pokemon's incredible ability to search for specific cards, you are allowed to run multiple one-ofs. Because of this, a lot of competitive Pokemon decks start to look too similar. Prize cards force players to consider deck building and what is actually essential for their deck to run. If you got rid of them, decks would all start to look the same. Especially since Pokemon has a fairly small pool of competitive level cards to pull from. If the company changed the way cards were designed, so that each set had more competitive trainers and fewer filler Pokemon, than maybe they could justify getting rid of Prize Cards, as players would still have to make decisions about what Trainers were the best to run in their deck. As it is, there are about 10-20 good, general trainers in the Standard pool at one time. If you could run 1-ofs of all of them without risk of them being Prized, why wouldn't you? And soon all the decks would look the same, with the only difference being a slight change in attackers and a tweak of running the occasional 2-of.

I think getting rid of Prize cards is possible, but it would have to come at the expense of making searching your deck a rarer and more costly ability.

 

[poke4trade]

I don't think the prize card will ever go away. I think that is a signature of the game. However, I'd love if pokemon would not deny prizes on the game board once a pokemon is placed down.

Instead, I'd love a Supporter card that allows a chance flip and places any single card of the opponents discard pile into their prize cards. Yes, I know Evil. You could start out by giving the opponent 7 prize cards at beginning of game instead of 6. Though, I think that would mute VS seeker a bit. The end game Lysandre wins would be fewer. I know that would be the card I put into their prize cards. It also might make greedy die more playable.

 

[Problem2]

I don't think the prize card will ever go away. I think that is a signature of the game. However, I'd love if pokemon would not deny prizes on the game board once a pokemon is placed down.

Instead, I'd love a Supporter card that allows a chance flip and places any single card of the opponents discard pile into their prize cards. Yes, I know Evil. You could start out by giving the opponent 7 prize cards at beginning of game instead of 6. Though, I think that would mute VS seeker a bit. The end game Lysandre wins would be fewer. I know that would be the card I put into their prize cards. It also might make greedy die more playable.

An ability that gives your opponent more prize cards would have to be as equally challenging as pulling off a One-Hit KO, in other words, situational. And probably would be busted if it was easy enough to execute on your first turn.

 

[xTITAN]

The Pokémon TCG is slightly more luck based than some other card games. If you want a more skill based TCG, then choose a different game. There are different card games to appeal to people who want different styles of games.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

It's actually fair. The prizes stand as a challenge on how to build consistency on your deck. For example, against Night March and Vespiquen, the new hot tech card is Karen. It's a tech card, so putting more than one will make your list a bit tighter, and will fail to win against other matchup. So you will have one Karen in your deck against this discard pile-decks. But being one have the chance that if you prized it, you will lose the game. That's why you should make your deck more consistent in that match-up in case your go-to card against that match-up becomes prized.

This is the problem we're talking about. Karen is a specific tech for exactly one in standard and maybe 3 in expanded. In standard, Karen helps your opponent if they are playing mega ray and rainbow road. Cards like Karen would be great for a side deck. In fact, you have to sacrifice consistency to run tech cards. I just watched a game where a player prized 3 Rough Seas, assuming those being the only 3 he played. It punished players way too hard. You have only 60 cards to work with and no side deck. Having the extra 15 cards, better mulligan rule and a better win condition makes the TCG a much better game.

 

[PineDog]

How about this: at the beginning of the game, both players set-up like normal, but let's say you mulligan, you show your hand to your opponent, then search your deck for a Basic Pokemon (minus Pokemon-EX or Pokemon-GX,) show it to your opponent, and then place that as your active Pokemon. Then you would select one of the cards in your hand, and place that as your first prize card. Then set up the other five prize cards. To compensate, your opponent gets to select a card from their hand and place it down as a prize, and then draw a card like normal. If both players mulligan, then you don't get to set down two prize cards, then draw a card, you only get to set down one from your hand, and neither players draw anything. The one rule this adds to the game is that decks have to have 1 Basic Pokemon that isn't a Pokemon-EX or Pokemon-GX. I feel like this is decently fair.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

How about this: at the beginning of the game, both players set-up like normal, but let's say you mulligan, you show your hand to your opponent, then search your deck for a Basic Pokemon (minus Pokemon-EX or Pokemon-GX,) show it to your opponent, and then place that as your active Pokemon. Then you would select one of the cards in your hand, and place that as your first prize card. Then set up the other five prize cards. To compensate, your opponent gets to select a card from their hand and place it down as a prize, and then draw a card like normal. If both players mulligan, then you don't get to set down two prize cards, then draw a card, you only get to set down one from your hand, and neither players draw anything. The one rule this adds to the game is that decks have to have 1 Basic Pokemon that isn't a Pokemon-EX or Pokemon-GX. I feel like this is decently fair.

Actually the best way to handle a mulligan is at the beginning of the game, before any player sets any Pokemon down, they look at their hand and decide if they want to keep it and if they dont they mulligan and the opponent draws 1 card like normal. Once they see something they like, the game then goes into setup.

 

[fawfulmark2]

Prizes for the TCG are pretty much in my mind the equivalent to Critical Hits in the videogames: a factor that can be out of our control(though tweaked in our favor) which we learn to play with and around.

Another CCG I recall using a similar system to Prizes was the short lived Duel Masters/Kaijudo series with it's shield mechanic.

 

[Otaku]

Prizes for the TCG are pretty much in my mind the equivalent to Critical Hits in the videogames: a factor that can be out of our control(though tweaked in our favor) which we learn to play with and around.

Another CCG I recall using a similar system to Prizes was the short lived Duel Masters/Kaijudo series with it's shield mechanic.

It wasn't that short-lived but yeah, those two games are gone (and I played both).

The Shield mechanic is similar to Prizes, though, enough to be relevant to the discussion. In Duel Masters/Kaijudo, each player places five face down cards at the beginning of the game. These aren't hand picked, but are simply the top five cards from his or her deck after sufficient randomization (shuffling, opponent's getting the chance to cut). Duel Masters/Kaijudo is a lot like "PokéMagic", which in turns gives it a very Yu-Gi-Oh! feel at times: players don't start with a creature in play, don't automatically lose for lacking a creature in play, etc. Instead of Life Points, you have the Shield Cards, and each time a player would be "damaged", instead a shield card takes the hit, is revealed, and is added to hand. Some cards have text that allows them to be activated with no additional cost the instant they are revealed as a Shield, and all such cards I saw were also able to be played normally from hand (pay the needed mana plus any card specific requirements). Once a player takes damage sans Shield cards, he or she loses.

Notice something though; instead of creating a double dose of advantage like in Pokémon, where scoring a KO not only takes away resources from your opponent (the Pokémon KO'd and anything attached to it), with Shield cards you move one step closer to victory, but your opponent gains an extra card (and in a game with less draw power than Pokémon).

 

[myska707]

Also, to add, Pokémon could also use a real mulligan rule (like Magic) so if you get a bad hand you can shuffle and redraw 1 less card even if your hand has Pokémon in it. Furthermore, like someone said above, you should have 15-card sideboards (like Magic) for competitive play, so you don't have to include specific anti-deck tech just on the chance of facing a deck of that type.

The trifecta of no mulligan, no sideboard, and prize cards instead of a KO counter makes Pokémon TCG the most luck-based TCG out there, and easy to tell why Magic: the Gathering is the biggest TCG with the most proper competition.

Yeah! And we should add instants, sorceries, enchantments, Planeswalkers, and artifacts. And Pokemon should be called creatures. And we should have life totals instead of prize cards.

If you truly feel this way, you may just prefer Magic over Pokemon. That is totally okay. There is a reason Magic is the best TCG. It is far more complex and it is designed for adults. Pokemon just recently began shifting its focus on more advanced strategy and mechanics. Let Pokemon grow on its own. But also... let Pokemon be Pokemon. The games need to have their differences.

 

[roastbeef56]

If it's a one-of in your deck, it's not essential to the deck. It's called a tech card. If you seem to always be needing that card, then adjust to your format and run more copies of it.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Yeah! And we should add instants, sorceries, enchantments, Planeswalkers, and artifacts. And Pokemon should be called creatures. And we should have life totals instead of prize cards.

If you truly feel this way, you may just prefer Magic over Pokemon. That is totally okay. There is a reason Magic is the best TCG. It is far more complex and it is designed for adults. Pokemon just recently began shifting its focus on more advanced strategy and mechanics. Let Pokemon grow on its own. But also... let Pokemon be Pokemon. The games need to have their differences.

We do want Pokemon to grow and be a much better game, its why we want these changes. I don't mind the Prize Cards system but we could use some better rules and mechanics and MtG is a good example of them. We want to play Pokemon and not Magic. I'd settle for a Side Deck and a real mulligan.

 

[chella182]

Also, to add, Pokémon could also use a real mulligan rule (like Magic) so if you get a bad hand you can shuffle and redraw 1 less card even if your hand has Pokémon in it. Furthermore, like someone said above, you should have 15-card sideboards (like Magic) for competitive play, so you don't have to include specific anti-deck tech just on the chance of facing a deck of that type.

The trifecta of no mulligan, no sideboard, and prize cards instead of a KO counter makes Pokémon TCG the most luck-based TCG out there, and easy to tell why Magic: the Gathering is the biggest TCG with the most proper competition.

We do want Pokemon to grow and be a much better game, its why we want these changes. I don't mind the Prize Cards system but we could use some better rules and mechanics and MtG is a good example of them. We want to play Pokemon and not Magic. I'd settle for a Side Deck and a real mulligan.

I've always found the mulligan thing more frustrating than the Prizes thing tbh. But say you draw a bad hand of 7 cards (with a Basic), you mulligan to a 6 card hand with NO basic... it could make it a even more frustrating game and you could end up with the same Pokémon in hand (Shaymin or Hoopa most commonly I'd say) for your 3rd mulligan and still have to start with it, but with 1 less card in hand. I dunno, I'm just thinking (typing) out loud here. I think people who play Pokémon with cards such as Shaymin and Hoopa - who you don't want to start with - are aware of the risk of playing those Pokémon, and usually add things in their deck to get around that (most decks I play with Shaymin use DCE, and Shaymin's only 1 Retreat Cost anyway, and I sometimes have Float Stones in if I've got Hoopa, OR it's a DCE Retreat which isn't ideal but it's doable).

As for the side deck thing I can't really comment; I know squat about MTG so I don't know how side decks even work.

 

[Sevus]

As for the side deck thing I can't really comment; I know squat about MTG so I don't know how side decks even work.

In Magic, your sideboard is a set of 15 cards that you can exchange with cards in your deck in between games of a match. For a Pokémon example, let's say that my deck has a weak matchup to Mega Rayquaza. I could run Parallel City, but that's a card only effective in certain matchups, and if I don't face one of those decks, the space used for Parallel City is "wasted." If Pokémon had a sideboard mechanic, I could place Parallel City in my sideboard to make my game 2 and 3 matchup against Mega Rayquaza much better, while preserving the consistency of my deck during game 1.

 

[fawfulmark2]

Side decking was also pretty popular in YuGiOh(and to a lesser extent Hearthstone, though there it was you could switch classes/decks), and honestly would be a very fun feature to introduce in the Pokemon TCG, especially in helping for decks that have bad matchups over particular types. If it were translated to this game it would probably be called something like a PC Box where you could store 20 Pokemon/Trainers that could be accessed during 2 of 3 matches.

 

[Latte1504]

Perhaps there could be card that could be played to access 1 of 10-20 cards in the sideboard?

 

[Otaku]

I've been trying to avoid discussing other mechanics in this thread. Especially Side Boards/Side Decks because we discuss that frequently. I mean find a message board dedicated to Pokémon with a TCG section that isn't dead and do a search; expect a thread two years old at most. In the case of PokéBeach, we have this thread that isn't quite a year old.

Side decking was also pretty popular in YuGiOh(and to a lesser extent Hearthstone, though there it was you could switch classes/decks), and honestly would be a very fun feature to introduce in the Pokemon TCG, especially in helping for decks that have bad matchups over particular types. If it were translated to this game it would probably be called something like a PC Box where you could store 20 Pokemon/Trainers that could be accessed during 2 of 3 matches.

Side decking ruined a lot of otherwise good decks because Yu-Gi-Oh! - like Pokémon - features many cards that can counter either general strategies or specific deck themes and those cards have generic costs (or no costs at all). You do this to Pokémon, and you should expect decks to devolve into the lowest common denominator, split between Toolbox approaches and total deck swaps. Delinquent, Enhanced Hammer, Hex Maniac, Pokémon Ranger... imagine not just having to worry about the odd TecH copy of these cards spammed via VS Seeker, but second and third game its basically Rock-Paper-Scissors between you and your opponent; do you side out your hard countered resource and hope your opponent sides in their counters? Assuming your deck strategy even allows that (hint: if it is competitive, it will have to at this point). Well, the other alternative is basically 15 TecH cards or the specifics of an entire other deck locked in there.

No, this does not sound enjoyable to me. If anything, it seems like another chance to increase luck for the average player, though some will indeed be skillful at predicting what is sided in and out.

 

[Chancewoot]

The Mechanic is cool for a couple reasons:

A. It is a built in "Win condition counter," as in you don't need anything extra to count how close you are to winning. You also get rewarded for doing well during a game, with a nice +1. You also get really cool cards like N and Ace Trainer, which play with tempo. While this is possible in Yugioh, it is very hard to explore without it being gimmicky or too overpowered.

B. It is close to the video game. As much as I think it is an unimportant detail, a lot of people like how it is similar to video game.

C. It is super simple, which works in favor of this game. A lot of what keeps me around for Pokemon (Besides art) is how simple it is, and out of the simplicity you get a lot of complexity. It isn't like Yugioh where you have to calculate how much damage a combo needs to do to be good, you can just exchange Pokemon, and that is a lot of fun.

Now the only reason why I don't like the mechanic is because it adds more random factors to the game. The more random the game is, generally there is less skill. You could argue that it takes skill playing around the random factors, but anyone who plays an evolution deck can tell you how annoying it is to have your basic Pokemon prized. Prizing also leads to really unwinnable situations, not only in the case of evolution cards, but sometimes you will never be able to find a card no matter how much you can dig.

I do have a solution though, note, I haven't tested it out but I have gave it some thought. We keep the prize mechanic in, but instead of Pokemon cards from our deck, we have prize tokens. Each prize token is not an item or supporter (No item lock/supporter lock cheese), so they are a new type of card and they all say "You may play this card to draw a card." This keeps a built in win condition, tempo controller, retains the whole video game feel, and keeps Pokemon simple. The biggest thing is that this takes away from some of the randomness of the game, making everyone happier.

There is also a lot of potential for cool card design in this. Imagine all the art works that don't necessarily fit with a card but look absolutely amazing, they would work perfectly with this. I imagine having special editions for certain tournaments, or Elite Trainer kits. Also, think about how Pokemon could give out actual "Prize cards." I think the idea of giving out money is nice, but giving players something that actually can be used in the game is really cool too. I like how energy can be used year after year and special promotions can be given out, this new "Prize Card" idea could be the same.