Ruling Base set computer search
- Thread starter Zamuron
- Start date
This has the potential to change and become playable in Expanded. All the Ace Specs are starting to bend in such a way that it makes them appear as a marked card. Lots of people had to proxy them after deck checks at the last Expanded event, and a good number of those proxies were the Base Set Computer Search.
I never saw the sense of not allowing to be legal in expanded. It doesn't say Ace Spec, but you can be expected to play it as an Ace Spec. The wording is exactly the same. Even the artwork is similar. Precedent was sent before to let such a thing happen, but they didn't in that case. "It would be too confusing" isn't a good argument when they were asked why this was the case.
I never saw the sense of not allowing to be legal in expanded. It doesn't say Ace Spec, but you can be expected to play it as an Ace Spec. The wording is exactly the same. Even the artwork is similar. Precedent was sent before to let such a thing happen, but they didn't in that case. "It would be too confusing" isn't a good argument when they were asked why this was the case.
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I'm not sure if the powers-that-be really care about that. I mean, if we want to go the "greedy corporation!" route, they'll just release an Alternate Art printing, or maybe start adding Ace Spec to Battle Arena Decks (assuming they brought back Battle Arena Decks).
The wording is exactly the same... except for the Ace Spec reminder text. In all honesty, we're lucky so many older cards are legal via errata; it'd be simpler just to say you can't use them. In fact, they're probably only allowed because of the combination of being so abundant (both the specific cards and when so many received an errata shortly before the XY-era).
Although not quite related to playing the game, I'll say from my aspect (as a collector) I would be absolutely ecstatic if either of these situations were to happen... Computer Search is incredibly inflated in price currently for a card that has nearly no collectible appeal. Same with Dowsing Machine, Scoop Up Cyclone, Scramble Switch, etc. They're incredibly desirable for players but without any collectible value I couldn't ever justify spending that much on those, because what's the collectible appeal? There's a huge difference between a Computer Search and a Charizard, or some kind of older WOTC card going for that same price.
Anything that could make them more accessible to players AND collectors would be nothing but beneficial. If they can do it for Standard, they should very much do it for expanded, especially when the cards in this format keep getting older and older and hard to find. I don't want to let my collection be even harder to complete because of a competitive game I don't care all that much about, and I don't think players want to be alienated either.
Thanks, I hadn't realized my sarcasm was poorly done. XD I should have stated, "Only in an expensive gift set." A Battle Arena Deck or gift set that was reasonably priced would, of course, be a very good thing.
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I don't care if it makes no sense, or that I personally wouldn't be buying them. I just want Full Art Ace Specs to exist. Possibly because I just finished eating a dessert and am on a sugar high. XD
Oh, don't worry about it at all.Thanks, I hadn't realized my sarcasm was poorly done. XD I should have stated, "Only in an expensive gift set." A Battle Arena Deck or gift set that was reasonably priced would, of course, be a very good thing.
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I don't care if it makes no sense, or that I personally wouldn't be buying them. I just want Full Art Ace Specs to exist. Possibly because I just finished eating a dessert and am on a sugar high. XD
I wasn't actually calling out anything in your point-This issue has just been something I have had many frustrations about for a long time. Black and White is the era I consider my favorite, and the fact that Ace Specs have gone up so much in the recent times has just added a lot of roadblocks to my completion of those sets (Boundaries Crossed being my favorite set makes Computer Search especially hurt...Not to mention pulling three Gold Potions in my lifetime yet not a single one of the one people would ACTUALLY want). Speaking of Battle Arena Decks- think Pokemon has been doing a good job with what they include in these Battle Arena Decks. The Rayquaza V. Keldeo one was one of the best values at the time, and I think the inclusion of Eggs in the M Blastoise and Paralyzing Gaze Zorua in the M Charizard ones also were great (even if it didn't change the price of those two cards that much, it still did help me get them despite their prices being unreasonably high). Ace Spec inclusion doesn't seem that out of the ballpark, knowing how they've made a LOT of meta-defining cards in Standard accessible (even in higher priced box sets, they've significantly helped prices on them as singles). They haven't quite done that level with Expanded yet (which I think they should do that OVER standard, knowing which one is the harder format to get singles for), but hey, who knows. Pokemon's products have gotten a LOT better since the XY days in both quality and what you actually get (despite being quite overpriced and I really don't buy much anymore unless there's a sale going on), so, who knows. It might be wishful thinking, but honestly collecting is hard enough as it is, I need some hopes to hold onto.
I'd take Full Art Ace Specs too, as long as it meant LESS of the regular Full Art Items. I like them but there's honestly a tad too much (BW/XY did it a lot better IMO, with at least having a much smaller number of them around. Sometimes less IS more, and I think it's showing with some of the filler in Sun and Moon sets).
They aren’t going to rotate anything out of expanded. Doing so would piss off all the players who’ve heavily invested in BW cards as their value will plummet instantly. It’s bad for business
It’s called expanded and yes
Emphasis added because I know that part is wrong. This might sound snarky or combative, but I just don't have time to "polish" it. I see it as a PSA more than anything else.
As a reminder:
- Organized Play at best boosts short term sales and provides long term stability for a brand; its an expense, not a money maker.
- This same argument was used to explain why adopting a "rotating" format was a bad idea back in 2001.
- This same argument has been used to explain why banning cards is a bad idea.
- This same argument means no complaining if/when you have to re-purchase alternate art reprints of key Expanded staples.
Even if some at TPCi thought that Expanded Format would never rotate, they usually have gone through the motions. It is circumstantial evidence but that just means constantly going through the motions of rotation without rotating supports the idea that the Expanded Format will eventually see some sets (maybe even an entre era's worth of sets) rotate so long as we have other compelling evidence. We do: the same logic and justification for the implementation of a rotating format in the first place, coupled with how the Unlimited Format was abandoned (instead of getting a Ban List and strategic errata/reprints to salvage it). Unless the counterargument is that somehow Expanded falls into a "sweet spot" between the two based purely on a relative relationship.
If you're investing in the Expanded Format now, do so at your own risk; that was always the understanding. Just like you invest in the Standard Format knowing that your cards aren't always going to be legal for it. In both cases, you also invest knowing that cards might be banned if they cause problems; you cannot even be certain that they'll be legal for a full year! You can complain but... the powers-that-be don't owe us Organized Play, or if they do, then you need to accept that decisions for the betterment of all Organized Play sometimes stink for the individual (and that you're being subsidized by all the purchases made by those who don't participate in Organized Play).
Anyway, sorry for this rambling conclusion and edits, but I even before posting I rewrote this three or four times and I keep noticing stuff I accidentally dropped from earlier writings. My main point is that either Expanded does eventually rotate, it gets a ridiculously sized Ban List (and increasing number of useless "filler"), or it gets abandoned once its as bad as Unlimited was when Expanded was implemented.
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Bad for business on who's end though??? It's not going to affect Pokemon when most Expanded cards are bought in the secondary market. And, your logic with pissing off players who invested in BW cards applies to any time cards rotate could apply to anything that gets rotated. Shaymin is, what, $94 dollars less than what it was going for in mid-late 2016? It's the same thing here, people know that buying meta cards for their decks aren't going to hold value in the long-run. They're worth what they are to players because they're meta relevant, and once they aren't anymore, it removes that value (unless the card has collectible value). You don't "Invest" in competitive cards if you're ever expecting something to keep value. You invest in the collectible cards, like the BW-era Full Arts or the Secret Rares, which, most of them are NOT Expanded relevant yet hold a pretty hefty value to them.
I can see Expanded rotating going either way. I really can.
I generally agree with this stance on it, because I do think that there could very well be a point when Expanded is either TOO large or TOO inaccessible for the average player, which would discourage participation in Organized Play, which could in turn could be just a bad deal for Pokemon, for the players, etc.
I can see a rotation happening. Maybe not for 2020, but I figure within the next few years.
The only other card game that has something close to Expanded is Magic. Theirs was called Extended and went until 2013. The way it worked is that you worked with an 8 year chunks worth of sets, but every three years, a "block" would get rotated, which is about 10 sets total (3 3-set blocks and a "core" set).
Since 2013, they have instated Modern, which goes from 2003-current. So 16 years worth of sets.
As stated earlier, the more sets that are kept within an eternal format, the bigger a banlist gets. The problem with a super eternal format, like the entire game of Yugioh, is that you'll have way too many cards to work with and the only way to balance it out is through power creep--every other set.
Rotating B&W wouldn't be bad for business, at least, there would be little to no recourse for doing so. I read something regarding M:TG that they won't reprint cards like Black Lotus, which makes sense because the ones that are graded go for tens of thousands of dollars. Reprinting it would tank their values heavily and (I can't remember the legal term for it), but there would actuallu be legal recourse for this, despite WOTC never having made an official statement saying that they will never reprint cards like Black Lotus ever.
In regards to Pokemon and Expanded, the most valuable cards would be Tropical Beaches. I have never seen a graded Beach in the wild, but there are several versions of Beach (regular, Staff, Top 32, Top 16, Quarter Finalist, Semi-Finalist, Champion...and maybe a Finalist? Don't quote me on that). and almost all of the (English) Beaches are "in use". The graded ones, I'm going to wager would go for something like maybe 2 grand--A small fraction of what a graded Black Lotus would be worth. I think that if they did rotate the sets and someone did try to make a legal case for it, saying their secondary value tanked, it might be in the realm of small claims. Wheras Black Lotus shenanigans would not. You would also need proof of how much your graded Tropical Beach actually is, and I'm not sure how you'd do that effectively considering most other Beaches go for just a few hundred and graded ons have little to no “price trend trraffic”. On top of that, if you're the type who has this sort of high dollar stuff, you're probably on top of price trends and where prices rise and fall. You'd also need to legally prove how much you have lost over a significant amount of time, as well as have other items of the same type (like auctions, etc.) being sold for their heavily decreased value.
And that's where the tricky part comes in for the "top player" stamped promos that are (probably) graded and we will never see: there's so few of them that there is virtually no way of being able to verify how much you would have lost.
Beaches are in this weird value microcosm.
Big thing I'm emphasizing is that, it's going to make a few people mad, but HIGHLY doubtful that a tiny group of collectors would make noise about it. Especially considering that outmoded Pokemon stuff has a tendency to spike in value. Look at most of those useless Gold Star Pokemon, WOTC Shining Pokemon, 1st Editions Base Set stuff, etc.
I think the smart idea would be to rotate Black & White eventually (especially with the judges having to proxy Ace Specs at recent regionals due to foil curling).
The only other card game that has something close to Expanded is Magic. Theirs was called Extended and went until 2013. The way it worked is that you worked with an 8 year chunks worth of sets, but every three years, a "block" would get rotated, which is about 10 sets total (3 3-set blocks and a "core" set).
Since 2013, they have instated Modern, which goes from 2003-current. So 16 years worth of sets.
As stated earlier, the more sets that are kept within an eternal format, the bigger a banlist gets. The problem with a super eternal format, like the entire game of Yugioh, is that you'll have way too many cards to work with and the only way to balance it out is through power creep--every other set.
Rotating B&W wouldn't be bad for business, at least, there would be little to no recourse for doing so. I read something regarding M:TG that they won't reprint cards like Black Lotus, which makes sense because the ones that are graded go for tens of thousands of dollars. Reprinting it would tank their values heavily and (I can't remember the legal term for it), but there would actuallu be legal recourse for this, despite WOTC never having made an official statement saying that they will never reprint cards like Black Lotus ever.
In regards to Pokemon and Expanded, the most valuable cards would be Tropical Beaches. I have never seen a graded Beach in the wild, but there are several versions of Beach (regular, Staff, Top 32, Top 16, Quarter Finalist, Semi-Finalist, Champion...and maybe a Finalist? Don't quote me on that). and almost all of the (English) Beaches are "in use". The graded ones, I'm going to wager would go for something like maybe 2 grand--A small fraction of what a graded Black Lotus would be worth. I think that if they did rotate the sets and someone did try to make a legal case for it, saying their secondary value tanked, it might be in the realm of small claims. Wheras Black Lotus shenanigans would not. You would also need proof of how much your graded Tropical Beach actually is, and I'm not sure how you'd do that effectively considering most other Beaches go for just a few hundred and graded ons have little to no “price trend trraffic”. On top of that, if you're the type who has this sort of high dollar stuff, you're probably on top of price trends and where prices rise and fall. You'd also need to legally prove how much you have lost over a significant amount of time, as well as have other items of the same type (like auctions, etc.) being sold for their heavily decreased value.
And that's where the tricky part comes in for the "top player" stamped promos that are (probably) graded and we will never see: there's so few of them that there is virtually no way of being able to verify how much you would have lost.
Beaches are in this weird value microcosm.
Big thing I'm emphasizing is that, it's going to make a few people mad, but HIGHLY doubtful that a tiny group of collectors would make noise about it. Especially considering that outmoded Pokemon stuff has a tendency to spike in value. Look at most of those useless Gold Star Pokemon, WOTC Shining Pokemon, 1st Editions Base Set stuff, etc.
I think the smart idea would be to rotate Black & White eventually (especially with the judges having to proxy Ace Specs at recent regionals due to foil curling).
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Seems like a sensible time to rotate would be when SUM rotates out of Standard - in 2021? - make Expanded XY, SUM, SS and Standard SS-on. Then Expanded still has a huge pool of cards to choose from, but doesn't entirely exclude folks that started playing Pokémon in the 2010s.