Why I'm Quitting the TCG

[Otaku]

@Tepig4321

Counters don't automatically make something balanced, or enjoyable to face (with or without the counter). Additionally, notice how you named something from our most recent set that only became legal for Organized Play less than two weeks ago, and one Supporter that has not yet been released. Now consider that one is a 100 HP Stage 1 line that would need to be run as a Bench-sitter in a format where both deck and Bench space can be rather tight, but is supposed to counter a Basic Pokémon with 180 HP that is attacking for just [CC]. I don't think Marowak (FCO) is without its uses, but the main reason I think it will actually see some play (haven't seen detailed results from this last weekend) is that we have Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and decks already using that Supporter for other Fighting Types; now a single Marowak (FCO) is an easy TecH instead of requiring at least two additional slots (at least in such decks).

Still all of that reminds me how technically, we have always been able to "counter" Seismitoad-EX by either

a) running Grass Types
b) playing few Items in our decks

Those options haven't worked particularly well because not only can Seismitoad-EX also run counters to such things, but going either route has often placed you at a significant disadvantage against any decks that were not Item lock or Grass Weak.

It's funny that people think Karen will get played.

I think it is funny that people still make comments like this. Not asking for much, but please give at least a little bit of a supporting argument for your statement.

Unless you were talking about the folly where by players work themselves (and try to work others) into a frenzy about cards before really testing them, especially when dealing with potentially flawed translations versus official English scans, text spoilers, or at least repeatedly confirmed translations from different sources. Yes that is something that happens so often one has to learn to laugh at it. It annoys me to no end otherwise, and yet I find myself just as guilty of it. >.>

The one translation I have seen for Karen states that she affects both player's discard piles. Thus I already have decks that would prefer to include her even if Night March is no longer a factor in that format. So for Expanded, where we will almost certainly still have access to both Battle Compressor and VS Seeker, I think Karen will at least see some play. Otherwise we'll get the classic "cycle" where the deck and counter wax and wane in usage. Night March will likely join the other decks decks that could theoretically win an event, but only if everyone leaves out said counter or enough have terrible luck (like their counter being Prized).

That isn't just idle speculation. While it still requires a good player, something like that happened at the Southeast Asian Regional Champions in I think 2012. Ah, found an article on it here by the person himself. Tham Kennard ran "Quad Sigilyph", built around the Safeguard Sigilyph. The only other Pokémon in the deck were two Mewtwo-EX (the original and only version available at that time). Opponent's with the counters to his strategy Prized, or who thought no one would be crazy enough to try such a deck at a Regionals and thus didn't worry about needing a way around Safeguard at the time (that might sound silly, but was sound reasoning with the card pool at that point).

 

[gumball51321]

@Tepig4321

Counters don't automatically make something balanced, or enjoyable to face (with or without the counter). Additionally, notice how you named something from our most recent set that only became legal for Organized Play less than two weeks ago, and one Supporter that has not yet been released. Now consider that one is a 100 HP Stage 1 line that would need to be run as a Bench-sitter in a format where both deck and Bench space can be rather tight, but is supposed to counter a Basic Pokémon with 180 HP that is attacking for just [CC]. I don't think Marowak (FCO) is without its uses, but the main reason I think it will actually see some play (haven't seen detailed results from this last weekend) is that we have Maxie's Hidden Ball Trick and decks already using that Supporter for other Fighting Types; now a single Marowak (FCO) is an easy TecH instead of requiring at least two additional slots (at least in such decks).

Still all of that reminds me how technically, we have always been able to "counter" Seismitoad-EX by either

a) running Grass Types
b) playing few Items in our decks

Those options haven't worked particularly well because not only can Seismitoad-EX also run counters to such things, but going either route has often placed you at a significant disadvantage against any decks that were not Item lock or Grass Weak.



I think it is funny that people still make comments like this. Not asking for much, but please give at least a little bit of a supporting argument for your statement.

Unless you were talking about the folly where by players work themselves (and try to work others) into a frenzy about cards before really testing them, especially when dealing with potentially flawed translations versus official English scans, text spoilers, or at least repeatedly confirmed translations from different sources. Yes that is something that happens so often one has to learn to laugh at it. It annoys me to no end otherwise, and yet I find myself just as guilty of it. >.>

The one translation I have seen for Karen states that she affects both player's discard piles. Thus I already have decks that would prefer to include her even if Night March is no longer a factor in that format. So for Expanded, where we will almost certainly still have access to both Battle Compressor and VS Seeker, I think Karen will at least see some play. Otherwise we'll get the classic "cycle" where the deck and counter wax and wane in usage. Night March will likely join the other decks decks that could theoretically win an event, but only if everyone leaves out said counter or enough have terrible luck (like their counter being Prized).

That isn't just idle speculation. While it still requires a good player, something like that happened at the Southeast Asian Regional Champions in I think 2012. Ah, found an article on it here by the person himself. Tham Kennard ran "Quad Sigilyph", built around the Safeguard Sigilyph. The only other Pokémon in the deck were two Mewtwo-EX (the original and only version available at that time). Opponent's with the counters to his strategy Prized, or who thought no one would be crazy enough to try such a deck at a Regionals and thus didn't worry about needing a way around Safeguard at the time (that might sound silly, but was sound reasoning with the card pool at that point).

Understandable. My bad for not posting my side for the argument. The reason for me saying Karen won't see play is because of the simple fact it's a simple Supporter with an effect that it too, is a simple one. I do think, looking back, that my post was a rather " Competitive Imbecile " cliche one. If I could have worded it differently to get my point across, I would have changed it to this: I don't see why people think Karen will see play. I found that not knowing why was funny. Night March does have relatively simple counters that work a lot more flexible than Karen, such as Jirachi, Xerosic, or Seismitoad-EX. These are easy to find, easy to tech cards that work in many matchups. And I also found your mention of Tham Kennard to be quite informative on the Karen example, but the difference is that Sigilyphs strength came in the form of a Pokemon, so it was able to attack, not mess with the consistency of the rest of his deck, and overall easier to use. Karen is a Supporter with the features I listed, and you can only play one per turn. Whereas instead, you could've played a draw Supporter, or maybe a disruptive one. And if I were to want to get MY Pokemon back from the discard, I would much rather play Super Rod, Puzzle of Time, or Sacred Ash. That's really all I can think of at the moment. And just for a reference point, and in a short sentence/ paragraph, can you list the decks that would play Karen, even without NM in the format? Thank You.

 

[Otaku]

Understandable. My bad for not posting my side for the argument.

Thank you for understanding and for explaining. I still have some things I would like to clear up.

Night March does have relatively simple counters that work a lot more flexible than Karen, such as Jirachi, Xerosic, or Seismitoad-EX.

This would be false. Please consider the counters you just listed. Xerosic is the only one you can use while doing your normal strategy, assuming you can spare a Supporter for the turn. Seismitoad-EX and Jirachi are both attackers, so if you're running an aggressive deck yourself, they slow it to a halt. Jirachi is no longer as effective as it once was; Puzzle of Time allows a player to reclaim discarded Double Colorless Energy (among other things), and Jirachi only protects itself; Lysandre means you traded an attack that ought to have scored a OHKO to function as a glorified Enhanced Hammer. It also only works on Special Energy, so if the opponent uses something like Mew or Mew-EX alongside Dimension Valley and Joltik, Jirachi cannot do anything. If your opponent already has a solid setup, Seismitoad-EX also cannot do anything. Xerosic requires your opponent be foolish enough to play multiple Double Colorless Energy to the field at once, unless you're also running Escape Rope or the like to Bench the current Active. Sometimes you will be fortunate and even a shrewd player will find he or she has no choice, such as when they can either play that second Double Colorless Energy down or discard it with a Professor Sycamore, and of course actual misplays do happen.

Karen allows you to reclaim all of your own Pokémon from the discard pile while dropping the damage from Night March (the attack) down to zero. If you KO a Night March Pokémon that turn, it will be at 20 plus any bonuses for stuff like Muscle Band. Once again your opponent may be able to thwart the counter, but it is significantly more difficult unless your own deck is full of small Pokémon so that one lucky Battle Compressor can get Night March back into OHKO range. If your deck can endure a turn or two to set up, the Night March player either leaves him or herself vulnerable to a hand crippling N and re-drawing a bunch of unneded resources, or to Karen leaving them the need to set everything back up again sans Battle Compressor a most of its other setup tricks.

And I also found your mention of Tham Kennard to be quite informative on the Karen example, but the difference is that Sigilyphs strength came in the form of a Pokemon, so it was able to attack, not mess with the consistency of the rest of his deck, and overall easier to use.

I actually holding up the Quad Sigilyph major win as an example of what Night March must do once Karen is released. Quad Sigilyph already had counters present in the format, simply running some non-Pokémon-EX in your deck. This was a counter that could be beneficial elsewhere as you might manage a favorable Prize trade as well. Another deck that might be a good point of reference is Tool Drop. This deck's strength waxed and waned with Tool Scrapper usage; once Karen is released, it becomes a fairly easy counter to include. Compared to the examples you listed, only Xerosic is as easy, but it is also far less effective against Night March as a counter, even though it can harass other decks (unlike Karen). Unless too many assume that they can rely on "everyone else" using it to get rid of Night March for them, then Night March becomes a bad play until its has been a bad play in the competitive scene long enough that people relax and stop running Karen, at which point some may risk Night March again, hoping for a Quad Sigilyph like situation. For the record if Night March starts winning (or at least showing up often enough) again, then Karen usage will climb and the cycle repeats.

And if I were to want to get MY Pokemon back from the discard, I would much rather play Super Rod, Puzzle of Time, or Sacred Ash. That's really all I can think of at the moment. And just for a reference point, and in a short sentence/ paragraph, can you list the decks that would play Karen, even without NM in the format? Thank You.

Puzzle of Time getting back Pokémon is mostly a fringe benefit; frankly seems like a waste just to use it for that. If you just meant that most of your decks don't need to reclaim that many Pokémon from the discard pile, so snagging one every now and then with Puzzle of Time (while probably getting something else that justified running Puzzle of Time in the first place) then... okay. I just wanted to be clear on that.

Mostly I look to decks that already feel the need to include Super Rod or Sacred Ash to recycle Pokémon, but do not have something they wish to keep in their discard pile that might make it backfire. For example, your own Exeggcute (PLF) can try to dodge Karen but if you don't have a way to discard them again, now instead of your own Karen you have to worry about Red Card or N.

Sky Field decks in Standard have a good reason to use it instead; any Vs Seeker can effectively become it so that even if your Sky Field and thus backfield keep getting trashed, you can try again (assuming a spare Sky Field). My decks that rely on things like Crobat (PHF) could also really use it. Still, I will agree that I phrased this point too forcefully. There are at least a few decks that I think will prefer to run Karen to recycle Pokémon from their own discard pile, even without the threat of Night March. With the threat of Night March, its just going to be about deducing where we are in the waxing and waning cycle between Night March and Karen.

 

[gumball51321]

Thank you for understanding and for explaining. I still have some things I would like to clear up.



This would be false. Please consider the counters you just listed. Xerosic is the only one you can use while doing your normal strategy, assuming you can spare a Supporter for the turn. Seismitoad-EX and Jirachi are both attackers, so if you're running an aggressive deck yourself, they slow it to a halt. Jirachi is no longer as effective as it once was; Puzzle of Time allows a player to reclaim discarded Double Colorless Energy (among other things), and Jirachi only protects itself; Lysandre means you traded an attack that ought to have scored a OHKO to function as a glorified Enhanced Hammer. It also only works on Special Energy, so if the opponent uses something like Mew or Mew-EX alongside Dimension Valley and Joltik, Jirachi cannot do anything. If your opponent already has a solid setup, Seismitoad-EX also cannot do anything. Xerosic requires your opponent be foolish enough to play multiple Double Colorless Energy to the field at once, unless you're also running Escape Rope or the like to Bench the current Active. Sometimes you will be fortunate and even a shrewd player will find he or she has no choice, such as when they can either play that second Double Colorless Energy down or discard it with a Professor Sycamore, and of course actual misplays do happen.

Karen allows you to reclaim all of your own Pokémon from the discard pile while dropping the damage from Night March (the attack) down to zero. If you KO a Night March Pokémon that turn, it will be at 20 plus any bonuses for stuff like Muscle Band. Once again your opponent may be able to thwart the counter, but it is significantly more difficult unless your own deck is full of small Pokémon so that one lucky Battle Compressor can get Night March back into OHKO range. If your deck can endure a turn or two to set up, the Night March player either leaves him or herself vulnerable to a hand crippling N and re-drawing a bunch of unneded resources, or to Karen leaving them the need to set everything back up again sans Battle Compressor a most of its other setup tricks.



I actually holding up the Quad Sigilyph major win as an example of what Night March must do once Karen is released. Quad Sigilyph already had counters present in the format, simply running some non-Pokémon-EX in your deck. This was a counter that could be beneficial elsewhere as you might manage a favorable Prize trade as well. Another deck that might be a good point of reference is Tool Drop. This deck's strength waxed and waned with Tool Scrapper usage; once Karen is released, it becomes a fairly easy counter to include. Compared to the examples you listed, only Xerosic is as easy, but it is also far less effective against Night March as a counter, even though it can harass other decks (unlike Karen). Unless too many assume that they can rely on "everyone else" using it to get rid of Night March for them, then Night March becomes a bad play until its has been a bad play in the competitive scene long enough that people relax and stop running Karen, at which point some may risk Night March again, hoping for a Quad Sigilyph like situation. For the record if Night March starts winning (or at least showing up often enough) again, then Karen usage will climb and the cycle repeats.



Puzzle of Time getting back Pokémon is mostly a fringe benefit; frankly seems like a waste just to use it for that. If you just meant that most of your decks don't need to reclaim that many Pokémon from the discard pile, so snagging one every now and then with Puzzle of Time (while probably getting something else that justified running Puzzle of Time in the first place) then... okay. I just wanted to be clear on that.

Mostly I look to decks that already feel the need to include Super Rod or Sacred Ash to recycle Pokémon, but do not have something they wish to keep in their discard pile that might make it backfire. For example, your own Exeggcute (PLF) can try to dodge Karen but if you don't have a way to discard them again, now instead of your own Karen you have to worry about Red Card or N.

Sky Field decks in Standard have a good reason to use it instead; any Vs Seeker can effectively become it so that even if your Sky Field and thus backfield keep getting trashed, you can try again (assuming a spare Sky Field). My decks that rely on things like Crobat (PHF) could also really use it. Still, I will agree that I phrased this point too forcefully. There are at least a few decks that I think will prefer to run Karen to recycle Pokémon from their own discard pile, even without the threat of Night March. With the threat of Night March, its just going to be about deducing where we are in the waxing and waning cycle between Night March and Karen.

You're right about a lot of that(A lot meaning basically everything), and today I learned something new. Thanks for making me better at the game.
It's a lot harder for me to travel to big events, so this info is a big buffered by the time I get it. Which would actually be a reason I would quit the TCG as well.

 

[Otaku]

You're right about a lot of that(A lot meaning basically everything), and today I learned something new. Thanks for making me better at the game.
It's a lot harder for me to travel to big events, so this info is a big buffered by the time I get it. Which would actually be a reason I would quit the TCG as well.

Technically I quit the TCG back in 2014. Then my old computer acted like it was on its last legs, so I found a replacement for a good price (the only way I could afford it in the first place XD) and was able to start back up on the PTCGO. Which I bring up because I do want to help people be better at this game; if I wasn't writing Card of the Day articles elsewhere, I am not sure I would still be playing... but that also means being very clear about my own status and capabilities in this game. This is why I also tend to over explain things: if I have it wrong but have backed up what I am saying, it is easier (at least in theory) to point out where I went wrong. ^^'

So... yeah, what I just said is my understanding based on both my limited personal experience and what results I've seen elsewhere.