Discussion Why do I hear the term "Greninja is dead"?

Asmer said:
especially coming from someone like you.
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What do you mean by this?

Asmer said:
In other words, no, it isn't a viable deck in the Meta right now and I do agree, but please consider that it may become viable once more instead of simply stating that it needs a tombstone, essentially.
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It was viable and now it's not. That means it's dead. It's possible the deck could make some kind of comeback later, but I don't see it happening this late in the season. Guardians Rising doesn't give it any new toys outside of Aqua Patch, maybe, and it doesn't help solve any of Greninja's problems, in any case.
 
Kyoushiro44 said:
On paper hex + float is a brilliant idea. On the actual game though? How many hex's did you think about running? You have no choice as to what you get in your opening hands nor your hands afterwards, how do you think you are going to get that combo.
No wait, how do you think you are going to get trubbish + garbodor + hex maniac + float stone combo under item lock, assuming you are going second?

My point is, we can make all these assumptions of how easy something is to counter, since you only need few cards to do it, but try to remember that in this case, you don't have any outs to search those needed cards when you truly would need them.
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I don't know how many games you play under item lock, but I haven't found it at all uncommon to draw into a hex and slap down a float stone / insert spirit link here / exp share / etc on Trubbish then use an ultra ball to find Garb. Yeah they can N you, but this isn't theorymon. That's how you set it up. You slap that Hex down and use the items you have available to you. I do it frequently. This isn't some assumption on how it works. That's literally how it works. It doesn't even have to happen on the same turn. The only thing that matters is the ability to slap a tool on Trubbish and then pull a Garb next turn. There are all sorts of ways to make that happen too. Hex, use a VS Seeker to get Hex back for the next turn. Use a Trainer's Mail to get a VS Seeker. This isn't some insane combination nor is it some kind of insane luck to be able to hit Hex more than once under item lock.

Does it happen every game? No. But it definitely happens enough that dismissing this as some kind "nice in theory, impossible in practice" kind of thing to do is going too far.

And this isn't me saying I am some great player. I am not and I get some combination of Hex + Ultra Ball / VS Seeker / Trainer's Mail pretty frequently in almost anything I am running that uses Garb and has a good number of tools (which is anything running Garb).
 
PMJ said:
What do you mean by this?
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I see you as respectable for your writings and, therefore, feel that you are someone who should lead by example. That's all.

It was viable and now it's not. That means it's dead.
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If you mean "dead" in regards to being significantly less viable in the current Meta, then I suppose that is the correct term to use, but considering that the word "dead" itself is, by definition, a reference to a living entity no longer living, and thus, perishing from existence... and for all intents and purposes, we'll call decks a living entity, then that is an incorrect statement. That's why I said that saying it is "dead" is a bad way to go about it. Is it no longer Meta-viable? Of course not at the moment. I agree with you 100% on that. But, that doesn't mean the deck just straight out stops becoming a deck. It doesn't mean the cards no longer exist and you simply cannot play it because it is no longer physically there. That was my point and, quite frankly, it's probably no more than a nitpick, but keep in mind that these kinds of things spread throughout the community and promote bad behaviors when it comes to deck creation, building, playing, etc. and that's not something I personally thing is good for any of us.

So, TL;DR, when it comes to the Meta, is the deck a bad idea? For now, yes. Not a doubt.

Does it mean that it's no longer playable? Well, if you can buy the cards and find a friend/local/wherever, then of course it is and, quite frankly, it's not the worst option out there.

It's possible the deck could make some kind of comeback later, but I don't see it happening this late in the season. Guardians Rising doesn't give it any new toys outside of Aqua Patch, maybe, and it doesn't help solve any of Greninja's problems, in any case.
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I suppose it depends on how strong Volcanion becomes with the surge of Owl being a thing as of late. It's not like people are going to go out and sell their Greninja decks. The deck is dirt cheap and it would be a very silly idea to do so, especially when it's still a good deck in Expanded once the Meta shifts more (and it will because it always does). Aqua Patch will be interesting with it, especially with the small amount of Synergy it has with Greninja's abilities. Still, time will tell as it always has.

Regardless, I hope this clears things up.
 
I don't like the term dead. Sure if you go against Decidueye-GX, you will lose but against any other matchup, you will more than likely win. This same thing is true for any other deck. Greninja is still really good and is going to get new tech cards to work with. They can play Repel, Field Blower and other cards to deal with ability lock.
 
Fayld said:
I don't know how many games you play under item lock, but I haven't found it at all uncommon to draw into a hex and slap down a float stone / insert spirit link here / exp share / etc on Trubbish then use an ultra ball to find Garb. Yeah they can N you, but this isn't theorymon. That's how you set it up. You slap that Hex down and use the items you have available to you. I do it frequently. This isn't some assumption on how it works. That's literally how it works. It doesn't even have to happen on the same turn. The only thing that matters is the ability to slap a tool on Trubbish and then pull a Garb next turn. There are all sorts of ways to make that happen too. Hex, use a VS Seeker to get Hex back for the next turn. Use a Trainer's Mail to get a VS Seeker. This isn't some insane combination nor is it some kind of insane luck to be able to hit Hex more than once under item lock.

Does it happen every game? No. But it definitely happens enough that dismissing this as some kind "nice in theory, impossible in practice" kind of thing to do is going too far.

And this isn't me saying I am some great player. I am not and I get some combination of Hex + Ultra Ball / VS Seeker / Trainer's Mail pretty frequently in almost anything I am running that uses Garb and has a good number of tools (which is anything running Garb).
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You are saying you haven't found it all uncommon but i don't know anything about the turns it have taken. How many turns before item locked happened when you could do these combos, as i specifically talked about first turn item locks. I really don't believe you when you say it's uncommon to have trubbish/tool/hex maniac combo unless you play like 4 of each or at least have 1 turn of items.
 
Kyoushiro44 said:
You are saying you haven't found it all uncommon but i don't know anything about the turns it have taken. How many turns before item locked happened when you could do these combos, as i specifically talked about first turn item locks. I really don't believe you when you say it's uncommon to have trubbish/tool/hex maniac combo unless you play like 4 of each or at least have 1 turn of items.
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The whole point of it is to do it while you are item locked. You can't just slap a Trubbish down and hope they don't trash it with Feather Arrow before you get a Hex Maniac. There is timing to everything in the game. Yeah there is a good amount of luck, but the decks that are running Garbodor, being able to get Hex + tool + Ultra Ball / Trubbish + VS Seeker / Draw Supporter / Hoopa / Shaymin isn't exactly lighting the world on fire with irregularity. Maybe you would prefer to burn that and try to win by setting up under item lock. That's up to you. A lot of people play that way and won't sell out to get Garb set up. When I am playing a Garb deck against Decidueye, I am selling out to set up Garb. Period. Once Garb is set up, the Deciduplume player has to scramble for an answer (for now, after SUM2 this is going to be infinitely harder to make stick).

Decisions like these are probably why I am not a great player, but that's how I operate. I want to make life as uncomfortable for that Decidueye player as possible and the best way to do that is to kill abilities. You can believe me or not believe me. I honestly don't think it matters because everyone plays differently and even approaches the exact same deck differently. I have had a lot of success against Deciduplume. It is one of the few T1 decks I face where I feel like I have time to do what I need to do to beat it. Not every variant is like that. I find the Jolteon EX variant particularly difficult to beat. Maybe it is the fact that I have spent far more time in Expanded play and find this particular lock deck easier to counter than the nastiness I see there. Dunno. I would rather face this deck than Turbo Darkrai, M Ray, or M Mewtwo any day of the week. Same way I would rather face Yveltal / Garb than those decks. Straight up, I find the speed decks significantly harder to beat. You may be the reverse.
 
So I've been thinking about this the past couple of days, and I had a water challenge on PTCGO, so I decided to try a Lapras Greninja deck that I've been experimenting a little bit with. I didn't think I'd get far, but all I had to do was evolve Pokemon, didn't matter how much damage I did or whether I won or lost. To my great surprise, I actually won 2 games with the deck. I tried it again a couple days later and went 3-1. Overall, now, I'm 10-3 with it, but there's a huge caveat here: I haven't faced a single Grass deck, but I have faced 4 Fire decks. So I will definitely say that I agree Greninja has definitely taken a HUGE step back. Nobody is playing it anymore at major tournaments, and for good reason. I will say, though, that maybe this deck isn't quite as finished as I thought it was.
 
I myself am I huge Greninja fan, but I also do believe Greninja is fading out. I don't however think he's dead in any way and at the first chance I will jump right back into playing with him at tournaments. Here's my reasoning why. (extra, I don't mean to upset any one just getting my 3 promised posts in a discussion I know and care about. Hi @PMJ )

Greninja's biggest problem is something that's always existed even when he made it to second at worlds. He's a stage 3 deck. And the risk of playing that deck is that you never know when you won't get that card that lets you get set up before your opponent. And in today's metagame, Darkrai, Yveltal, Decidueye, Rayquaza, etc., most of these decks are getting set up instantly besides an occasional Decidueye/Vileplume. Now that's not to say that Greninja is bad, but it will have a tough time against those basic Pokemon decks that start attacking at turn one. And I personally believe Pokemon co. is trying to 'kill' Greninja with all those cards being released. The only true help we've gotten is Field Blower, which disscards up to two in any combo. of Stadiums and Tools. So when you play Greninja, whether it be Talonflame, Max Potion, or whatever variation you play, you just have to remember. The odds are against you but Greninja does great as an underdog. My final point is that people are giving up on Greninja because he's too complicated. Most people want a deck that can get them first instantly at tournaments and Greninja might just need a genius makeover that nobody knows about. If you want to talk about Greninja feel free to PM me or reply to my post. Like I said I'm Greninja's #1 fan and I want to see him come back, but until we find an answer. he's watching from the sidelines.
 
Just wait for Forest of Giant Plants to rotate and Field blower to enter. I'll be switching from Decidueye to Greninja then.
 
I dunno, I think Greninja still will have a tough time, plus does anyone know exactly how the rotation is working?
 
The rotation is gonna be Primal Clash on. I think the main reason it is "dead" is because everyone is playing against Decidueye and Greninja naturally dies against these techs. When Decidueye becomes unplayable with FOGP gone, we will be left with a metagame more healthy for a Greninja comeback. But that's just my guess.
 
Greninja13 said:
I myself am I huge Greninja fan, but I also do believe Greninja is fading out. I don't however think he's dead in any way and at the first chance I will jump right back into playing with him at tournaments. Here's my reasoning why. (extra, I don't mean to upset any one just getting my 3 promised posts in a discussion I know and care about. Hi @PMJ )

Greninja's biggest problem is something that's always existed even when he made it to second at worlds. He's a stage 3 deck. And the risk of playing that deck is that you never know when you won't get that card that lets you get set up before your opponent. And in today's metagame, Darkrai, Yveltal, Decidueye, Rayquaza, etc., most of these decks are getting set up instantly besides an occasional Decidueye/Vileplume. Now that's not to say that Greninja is bad, but it will have a tough time against those basic Pokemon decks that start attacking at turn one. And I personally believe Pokemon co. is trying to 'kill' Greninja with all those cards being released. The only true help we've gotten is Field Blower, which disscards up to two in any combo. of Stadiums and Tools. So when you play Greninja, whether it be Talonflame, Max Potion, or whatever variation you play, you just have to remember. The odds are against you but Greninja does great as an underdog. My final point is that people are giving up on Greninja because he's too complicated. Most people want a deck that can get them first instantly at tournaments and Greninja might just need a genius makeover that nobody knows about. If you want to talk about Greninja feel free to PM me or reply to my post. Like I said I'm Greninja's #1 fan and I want to see him come back, but until we find an answer. he's watching from the sidelines.
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Greninja was great, but it seemed as if TCPi wanted to somehow push a stage two deck into meta to see how it would do. This lead to Greninja break and some crazy op snipe damage. In my honest opinion. Greninja should have a 1 energy retreat cost and the break should only get 150hp. Now I say this because the deck can do too much damage in a format where 200 damage a turn for really no downside is kinda op. Greninja would have Worlds had it not been for some bad pulls, as shown by tablemon in his best of three worlds rematch. Greninja needed a counter. It traded heavy damage, had lots of hp, and had a minimal retreat cost. It was the perfect deck. Sure it had to setup which took 3 turns, but with talonflame it could tank shots with no problems while it waited up for frogadier(which was another huge mistake on their part). If it wasnt for plume and co I think we'd be stuck with the blue frog until it rotated. I love greninja, hes easily one of the most lovable pokemon, but I think they overdid him in the TCG. All stage two decks should be able to speed through evolution's like that. I think greninja will come back after rotation, unless TCPi introduces a item or supporter that allows for unlimited evolution during your turn. That would kill greninja completely. Its snipe just wouldnt be able to compete with the solgaleo spam im sure we'd get if something like that came out.
 
That's the thing though, as soon as worlds was over so was Greninja with the new rotation that eliminated tool removal (basically). and after that more and more tech cards were introduced that 'killed' Greninja. However I don't know about these new GX's. I like them but for Greninja with 200 or 220 w/ Kukui or Giovanni, those things still kill. That's why I think Greninja isn't dead, but the pros definitely agree that he's in his froggy hibernation.
 
Now I know Greninja Break is not completely dead.. but why is it not seeing as much *competitive?* play?
What did Greninja players lose?
or what did counter decks gain?
I don't think Giratina (XY184) is the leading cause of this.

*My Opinion but I am open to yours*
 
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The main reason greninja died was because of sun and moon. First of all, decidueye plume. This deck is now one of the best decks out there right now, and for greninja this is basically an auto loss. This is because:
1. Greninja cannot do barely anything while vileplume is in play, and this deck doesnt usually run hex since its so reliant on giant water shurikens.
2. decidueye is MUCH faster and more powerful than greninja
3. greninja is hopeless at one hit KOing big 240/250 mons, even with access to abillities and items.
also, cards like garbodor and wobbuffet are popular because of vileplume, making greninja unable to hit for much damage at all.
However, with the release of guardians rising, this deck might just make a comeback, using cards like choice band to one shot most if not all threats, and field blower to remove float stone off garb and pokemon that have high retreat costs, and fury belts to make one shotting easier
 
Yes I agree, I think that Greninja will get some help with Guardians Rising, however the question is. Will anyone make the right decklist? Because When Greninja gets set up, it's arguably one of the best decks in standerd. But unless we get some help setting up, it'll probably just have one blip on the meta deck radar, then slowly fade away again.
 
Once I replace that puny 110 HP flying hedgehog next rotation, Greninja BREAK won't have anything else to eat

EDIT: Shaymin is even weaker than I thought it was
 
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The Kurtinator888 said:
The main reason greninja died was because of sun and moon. First of all, decidueye plume. This deck is now one of the best decks out there right now, and for greninja this is basically an auto loss. This is because:
1. Greninja cannot do barely anything while vileplume is in play, and this deck doesnt usually run hex since its so reliant on giant water shurikens.
2. decidueye is MUCH faster and more powerful than greninja
3. greninja is hopeless at one hit KOing big 240/250 mons, even with access to abillities and items.
also, cards like garbodor and wobbuffet are popular because of vileplume, making greninja unable to hit for much damage at all.
However, with the release of guardians rising, this deck might just make a comeback, using cards like choice band to one shot most if not all threats, and field blower to remove float stone off garb and pokemon that have high retreat costs, and fury belts to make one shotting easier
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So much truth in this post. Don't forget Lurantis auto wins with one energy attachment. If greninja had access to a better partner, (like talonflame but not a dead card outside of the opening set up) then greninja would be back in business with its new guardians rising support.
 
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