XY What Types/Pokemon Do You Think are Unfair/Too Weak?

[largellama123]

I was in the "Making Ice-Types More Useful" thread when we started talking about how large move pools are unfair, like a Dragon type learning Fire and Steel to combat weaknesses. That got me thinking, what other battle aspects of Pokemon are unfair? That's why I made this thread; to see what other people think about things that are unfair?
Start posting to get the conversation going!

 

[Windwhip]

Well, if we're talking about TMs, then there's one move doesn't really make any sense to be learned by every single Pokemon (with a few exceptions of course) which is TM06 Toxic. Sure, it isn't that powerful like Ice Beam or Flash Cannon, but come on, you gotta admit it doesn't make any sense! I mean, Talonflame and Walrein are perfectly capable of learning Toxic.

Lol wut?

 

[largellama123]

Well, if we're talking about TMs, then there's one move doesn't really make any sense to be learned by every single Pokemon (with a few exceptions of course) which is TM06 Toxic. Sure, it isn't that powerful like Ice Beam or Flash Cannon, but come on, you gotta admit it doesn't make any sense! I mean, Talonflame and Walrein are perfectly capable of learning Toxic.

Lol wut?

Some TMs are stupid, lile Golurk learning fly...but overall I feel like the TM system is okay as it is. People were talking about how it's not fair how some Pokemon have large move pools, but that's OK. But in cases where every pokemon can learn moves that don't make sense, those are small changes that are plausible

A Flying Golurk

 

[Windwhip]

Well, if we're talking about TMs, then there's one move doesn't really make any sense to be learned by every single Pokemon (with a few exceptions of course) which is TM06 Toxic. Sure, it isn't that powerful like Ice Beam or Flash Cannon, but come on, you gotta admit it doesn't make any sense! I mean, Talonflame and Walrein are perfectly capable of learning Toxic.

Lol wut?

Some TMs are stupid, lile Golurk learning fly...but overall I feel like the TM system is okay as it is. People were talking about how it's not fair how some Pokemon have large move pools, but that's OK. But in cases where every pokemon can learn moves that don't make sense, those are small changes that are plausible

A Flying Golurk

Well...I do have a Flying Golurk and it's awesome! It actually make sense because apparently Golurk have some kind of combustion or something similar under its feets and starts to fly like a rocket. It was created by humans (Magicians I guess--otherwise how did they create a Pokemon in the first place? Not to mention it was a long time ago with no technologies. :3)

 

[largellama123]

Some TMs are stupid, lile Golurk learning fly...but overall I feel like the TM system is okay as it is. People were talking about how it's not fair how some Pokemon have large move pools, but that's OK. But in cases where every pokemon can learn moves that don't make sense, those are small changes that are plausible

A Flying Golurk

Well...I do have a Flying Golurk and it's awesome! It actually make sense because apparently Golurk have some kind of combustion or something similar under its feets and starts to fly like a rocket. It was created by humans (Magicians I guess--otherwise how did they create a Pokemon in the first place? Not to mention it was a long time ago with no technologies. :3)

Yeah, today we has the interwebz to solve all our problems...
And i guess it makes sense, but you definitely wouldn't expect it!

 

[Blob55]

Some TMs are stupid, lile Golurk learning fly...but overall I feel like the TM system is okay as it is. People were talking about how it's not fair how some Pokemon have large move pools, but that's OK. But in cases where every pokemon can learn moves that don't make sense, those are small changes that are plausible

A Flying Golurk

Well...I do have a Flying Golurk and it's awesome! It actually make sense because apparently Golurk have some kind of combustion or something similar under its feets and starts to fly like a rocket. It was created by humans (Magicians I guess--otherwise how did they create a Pokemon in the first place? Not to mention it was a long time ago with no technologies. :3)

Combustion? Feet? Does that mean Blaziken can Fly too?

 

[largellama123]

Well...I do have a Flying Golurk and it's awesome! It actually make sense because apparently Golurk have some kind of combustion or something similar under its feets and starts to fly like a rocket. It was created by humans (Magicians I guess--otherwise how did they create a Pokemon in the first place? Not to mention it was a long time ago with no technologies. :3)

Combustion? Feet? Does that mean Blaziken can Fly too?

Lol I watched a clip and it showed Golurk basically becoming a rocket, so I guess that's why he can fly but Blaziken can't
ALL IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE.
(Apeture Science)

 

[Seven is a Color]

Golurk can learn Fly because it's based off of the Iron Giant.

 

[largellama123]

Golurk can learn Fly because it's based off of the Iron Giant.

OK, see, there is some logic in all of this!
Anything else you think is kinda messed up?

 

[Bolt the Cat]

See, the problem with Dragon isn't just that it can cover its weaknesses. I agree with you that that can be good strategy. But when Dragon is populated by many legendaries and pseudo legends that combine that coverage with ridiculous BSTs and such so that they outspeed and/or overpower you before you even have the chance to counter them, it becomes a major problem.

Aside from that, I think another type chart change is warranted, there's a few lingering issues in the current type chart:

-Electric is only weak to Ground. This is a definite problem, but not for the reason you expect. Electric may only have one weakness, but it only has decent coverage, it's not as if the type itself is OP. The problem is that this gives Ground a near monopoly on Electric type coverage and almost forces you to have one on your team (sure, you could have a Grass or Dragon type or something and not get the SE, but it's usually better to have that advantage).
-Ground itself is pretty OP. It's SE against 5 types, and only 3 types resist/are immune to it. And with Earthquake being a TM move, there's very little to discourage this type from running rampant. It could definitely stand to be brought down a peg.
-Ice only resists itself, making it worthless defensively (and sadly, many Ice types have BSTs which are more defense oriented).
-Dark and Ghost share the same type advantages, making them fairly interchangeable and not very unique.
-Less of a priority, but anything that can be done to help Grass, Bug, or Rock would be great. They all have tons of weaknesses (which is especially damaging for Rock, which is conceptually designed as a defense oriented type), and half the type chart resists them. Pretty much as long as they don't exacerbate these issues like Fairy did for Bug, that would work, but giving them new type advantages or having them resist new types would be ideal.

I think they could fix it by doing this:

-Have Ice resist Ground and Dragon.
-Remove Fairy's resistance to Bug.
-Add two new types to handle the problems with Electric, Ghost, and Dark. Not really sure what type concepts could fulfill these requirements, but we'd need at least two of them to fix the Dark/Ghost issue (otherwise either they end up giving both of them a type advantage to the new type which just maintains the problem with them having the same type advantages, or they just give it to one and the other becomes less useful). I've heard Alien type thrown around before and that would certainly fix Electric (since it would make sense for Alien to be SE against Electric since aliens could disrupt electricity) but I'm not as sure it could help fix the Dark/Ghost issue (could Ghost be SE against it? I'm not sure that'd make sense). Aside from that, I could also see it being given type advantages and weaknesses that might help the balance even further, like being SE against Normal and weak to Poison.

 

[Chaos Jackal]

Moved to VG General.

 

[bacon]

I actually think the type chart is pretty fair at the moment. There are some types that just outright suck (Psychic, Ice), but I don't think any group of types dominates the game like in gen 4 and 5.

The only things I consider unfair (at least when playing on WiFi) are the Pokemon who have viability drawn from awkward TMs/move tutors from previous games. Stealth Rock, Defog and Knock Off are really important moves, but the best abusers of these can't be obtained from XY alone. So I'm at a massive (and I do mean massive) disadvantage for not owning games that came out 3 - 6 years ago. :I

 

[vraieesprit]

I think it's more about how you teach pokemon moves than about types.

It doesn't matter really to me what the chart says because as people have said, pokemon can learn non-type moves, sometimes through learnset and sometimes through TM. There are lots of dual type pokemon which also skews the strong/weak. I don't think the chart is very useful, to be honest.

Some pokemon also take a lot more dedication to train up than others, and I think that's sometimes part of the problem when people talk about strong or weak types. You need to really want to raise a pokemon to get it to a level where it can do devastating damage, so it all depends on the kind of team you build.

If I had to name a type I find weak/difficult to work with, it would be the fighting type. I think that they had more potential back in the older games, but though I know they are popular, I think they have a lot of downfalls in the modern game. The big issue is that even the dark/fighting pokemon are not immune to psychic pokemon now the fairy type exists. Fairy is good against dark and many psychic types can learn fairy moves like Dazzling Gleam (the most obvious being Gardevoir of course). Fighting types are also quite weak against grass in the game, and even more so if they happen to be fighting/ground.

Even if that wasn't an issue, though, there's the problem of contact moves. A fighting type pokemon must make contact with the opposition to land a hit on them. If you are fighting a pokemon with poison ability, or flame body or static, you have an immediate disadvantage just by attacking. By contrast, other types often have non-contact moves that allow you to avoid that happening. Maybe that means I think the fighting type needs work to bring it more in line with the current game.

But I will say again that I'm not basing that on the chart of weaknesses, because I think it doesn't really resemble what happens in actual game encounters. So if this is specifically relating to the chart, then I guess I have no changes to make.

 

[largellama123]

See, the problem with Dragon isn't just that it can cover its weaknesses. I agree with you that that can be good strategy. But when Dragon is populated by many legendaries and pseudo legends that combine that coverage with ridiculous BSTs and such so that they outspeed and/or overpower you before you even have the chance to counter them, it becomes a major problem.

Aside from that, I think another type chart change is warranted, there's a few lingering issues in the current type chart:

-Electric is only weak to Ground. This is a definite problem, but not for the reason you expect. Electric may only have one weakness, but it only has decent coverage, it's not as if the type itself is OP. The problem is that this gives Ground a near monopoly on Electric type coverage and almost forces you to have one on your team (sure, you could have a Grass or Dragon type or something and not get the SE, but it's usually better to have that advantage).
-Ground itself is pretty OP. It's SE against 5 types, and only 3 types resist/are immune to it. And with Earthquake being a TM move, there's very little to discourage this type from running rampant. It could definitely stand to be brought down a peg.
-Ice only resists itself, making it worthless defensively (and sadly, many Ice types have BSTs which are more defense oriented).
-Dark and Ghost share the same type advantages, making them fairly interchangeable and not very unique.
-Less of a priority, but anything that can be done to help Grass, Bug, or Rock would be great. They all have tons of weaknesses (which is especially damaging for Rock, which is conceptually designed as a defense oriented type), and half the type chart resists them. Pretty much as long as they don't exacerbate these issues like Fairy did for Bug, that would work, but giving them new type advantages or having them resist new types would be ideal.

I think they could fix it by doing this:

-Have Ice resist Ground and Dragon.
-Remove Fairy's resistance to Bug.
-Add two new types to handle the problems with Electric, Ghost, and Dark. Not really sure what type concepts could fulfill these requirements, but we'd need at least two of them to fix the Dark/Ghost issue (otherwise either they end up giving both of them a type advantage to the new type which just maintains the problem with them having the same type advantages, or they just give it to one and the other becomes less useful). I've heard Alien type thrown around before and that would certainly fix Electric (since it would make sense for Alien to be SE against Electric since aliens could disrupt electricity) but I'm not as sure it could help fix the Dark/Ghost issue (could Ghost be SE against it? I'm not sure that'd make sense). Aside from that, I could also see it being given type advantages and weaknesses that might help the balance even further, like being SE against Normal and weak to Poison.

The Ice type weaknesses makes absolutely no sense, as it's not weak to Dragon, Grass, or Water. There is not logic there. I also vote for new types too, since I feel that Fairy types just destroyed the Ice Types since people mostly use them now instead of Ice. Nintendo disappointed us with the new type, and they can make it up by making a new type or rearranging the type matchups.

 

[Bolt the Cat]

I think it's more about how you teach pokemon moves than about types.

It doesn't matter really to me what the chart says because as people have said, pokemon can learn non-type moves, sometimes through learnset and sometimes through TM. There are lots of dual type pokemon which also skews the strong/weak. I don't think the chart is very useful, to be honest.

Well yes, determining an individual Pokemon's strength is more than just type matchups, but type matchups can make or break a particular type sometimes. Look at Ice type, it only resists itself, but because many Ice types are defensively oriented, it's generally a weak type. Which means they need to give Ice more resistances for them to be more useful.

If I had to name a type I find weak/difficult to work with, it would be the fighting type. I think that they had more potential back in the older games, but though I know they are popular, I think they have a lot of downfalls in the modern game. The big issue is that even the dark/fighting pokemon are not immune to psychic pokemon now the fairy type exists. Fairy is good against dark and many psychic types can learn fairy moves like Dazzling Gleam (the most obvious being Gardevoir of course). Fighting types are also quite weak against grass in the game, and even more so if they happen to be fighting/ground.

Even if that wasn't an issue, though, there's the problem of contact moves. A fighting type pokemon must make contact with the opposition to land a hit on them. If you are fighting a pokemon with poison ability, or flame body or static, you have an immediate disadvantage just by attacking. By contrast, other types often have non-contact moves that allow you to avoid that happening. Maybe that means I think the fighting type needs work to bring it more in line with the current game.

But I will say again that I'm not basing that on the chart of weaknesses, because I think it doesn't really resemble what happens in actual game encounters. So if this is specifically relating to the chart, then I guess I have no changes to make.

A lot of people would disagree with you there, Fighting has a ton of type advantages, many of them to popular types, and it's the only type good against Normal. Sure, Fairy brought it down a bit, but it's still fairly strong. I'd say it's more overpowered than underpowered.

---

The Ice type weaknesses makes absolutely no sense, as it's not weak to Dragon, Grass, or Water. There is not logic there.

IDK what you mean.

I also vote for new types too, since I feel that Fairy types just destroyed the Ice Types since people mostly use them now instead of Ice. Nintendo disappointed us with the new type, and they can make it up by making a new type or rearranging the type matchups.

Ice only really needs resistances, it's fine on everything else. It's pretty solid offensively, it's good against 4 types.

 

[largellama123]

I think it's more about how you teach pokemon moves than about types.

It doesn't matter really to me what the chart says because as people have said, pokemon can learn non-type moves, sometimes through learnset and sometimes through TM. There are lots of dual type pokemon which also skews the strong/weak. I don't think the chart is very useful, to be honest.

Well yes, determining an individual Pokemon's strength is more than just type matchups, but type matchups can make or break a particular type sometimes. Look at Ice type, it only resists itself, but because many Ice types are defensively oriented, it's generally a weak type. Which means they need to give Ice more resistances for them to be more useful.

If I had to name a type I find weak/difficult to work with, it would be the fighting type. I think that they had more potential back in the older games, but though I know they are popular, I think they have a lot of downfalls in the modern game. The big issue is that even the dark/fighting pokemon are not immune to psychic pokemon now the fairy type exists. Fairy is good against dark and many psychic types can learn fairy moves like Dazzling Gleam (the most obvious being Gardevoir of course). Fighting types are also quite weak against grass in the game, and even more so if they happen to be fighting/ground.

Even if that wasn't an issue, though, there's the problem of contact moves. A fighting type pokemon must make contact with the opposition to land a hit on them. If you are fighting a pokemon with poison ability, or flame body or static, you have an immediate disadvantage just by attacking. By contrast, other types often have non-contact moves that allow you to avoid that happening. Maybe that means I think the fighting type needs work to bring it more in line with the current game.

But I will say again that I'm not basing that on the chart of weaknesses, because I think it doesn't really resemble what happens in actual game encounters. So if this is specifically relating to the chart, then I guess I have no changes to make.

A lot of people would disagree with you there, Fighting has a ton of type advantages, many of them to popular types, and it's the only type good against Normal. Sure, Fairy brought it down a bit, but it's still fairly strong. I'd say it's more overpowered than underpowered.

---

The Ice type weaknesses makes absolutely no sense, as it's not weak to Dragon, Grass, or Water. There is not logic there.

IDK what you mean.

I also vote for new types too, since I feel that Fairy types just destroyed the Ice Types since people mostly use them now instead of Ice. Nintendo disappointed us with the new type, and they can make it up by making a new type or rearranging the type matchups.

Ice only really needs resistances, it's fine on everything else. It's pretty solid offensively, it's good against 4 types.

---

Whoops, messed up on my post there. I meant to say that Ice should have a resistance to Dragon, Water, and a few of the types it's strong against.

 

[NoDice]

Well yes, determining an individual Pokemon's strength is more than just type matchups, but type matchups can make or break a particular type sometimes. Look at Ice type, it only resists itself, but because many Ice types are defensively oriented, it's generally a weak type. Which means they need to give Ice more resistances for them to be more useful.


A lot of people would disagree with you there, Fighting has a ton of type advantages, many of them to popular types, and it's the only type good against Normal. Sure, Fairy brought it down a bit, but it's still fairly strong. I'd say it's more overpowered than underpowered.

---

IDK what you mean.


Ice only really needs resistances, it's fine on everything else. It's pretty solid offensively, it's good against 4 types.

---

Whoops, messed up on my post there. I meant to say that Ice should have a resistance to Dragon, Water, and a few of the types it's strong against.

---

I have to say I have always felt that Ice and Water should resist each other, or at least, Ice should hit water super effectively. Having Water resist Ice just doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[largellama123]

Whoops, messed up on my post there. I meant to say that Ice should have a resistance to Dragon, Water, and a few of the types it's strong against.

I have to say I have always felt that Ice and Water should resist each other, or at least, Ice should hit water super effectively. Having Water resist Ice just doesn't make much sense to me.

Yeah, like ice can be more likely to freeze water or something like that. Maybe there could even be an ability that causes a water type to turn to ice when hit with an ice type move

 

[CuriousCleffa]

I'm gonna have to agree with Bolt about Earthquake. It dominates battles, definitely in doubles.
I also think that Archen's ability (Defeatist) makes no sense at all. Or am I just missing something there?
It just makes Archeops so looked down on. Archeops has some great base stats, and does have potential, but his ability just turns competitive players away from him. That just makes a sad Archeops

 

[Their Goominess]

I'm gonna have to agree with Bolt about Earthquake. It dominates battles, definitely in doubles.
I also think that Archen's ability (Defeatist) makes no sense at all. Or am I just missing something there?
It just makes Archeops so looked down on. Archeops has some great base stats, and does have potential, but his ability just turns competitive players away from him. That just makes a sad Archeops

Stuff like Archeops, Slaking and Regigigas frequently have crippling abilities to stop them being overpowered.

Archeops isn't actually that overpowered compared to the other 2 though... its weak to SR, Bullet Punch, and a few common types, plus its defensive stats aren't gonna let it take more than a few hits anyway.
(whereas Slaking and Regigigas have better overall stats, with Slaking being able to OHKO pretty much anything with the right coverage move and when Regigigas' Slow Start has ended it becomes one of the scariest Pokemon ever)