Pokemon What is Normal-type Actually About?

[Mitja]

Now that we've seen Litleos evolution (assuming its type stays the same), I'm still confused about Litleos/Pyroars type combo.
Fire / Normal

It's a Fire pokemon (to the point where it has a fire kanji symbol in the mane!), but then it is also some extra nothing special on the side?

Am I missing something?
Which brings me to the topic:

What are the aspects of the Normal type?

Until now I had thought of it in these terms:

-It is the plain type
meaning everything is raw and not specialized in any way.
Their scratches and headbutts aren't extra mean or trained techniques or species-endowed.
Their energy-based moves don't employ any additional element.

-Its the default type
simply anything that doesn't fit some of the "real" types, gets to be Normal.
Like a placeholder, it can be replaced by one of the other type when they take over (Swablu->Altaria, Fletchling->Talonflame, and the prime example: Eevee.)

-The jack of all trades type
Not specializing in one particular type, but being able to employ in a big diversity of them anyway.
(since sometimes Normal pokemon tend to be able to learn tons of different elemental moves, or are conceptually meant to take on any one type at a time like Arceus, Kecleons Color Change and Porygons Conversion, Tri-Attack etc...)

But with those, the only type combos for Normal that made sense were when a Pokemon is Normal, DOES have some minor type association, but not enough to justify a pure type (so like Bibarel/Girafarig/Sawsbuck/birds, Normal primary, something else secondary)

Seeing Litleo and Helioptile however (both secondary Normal), there must be something more. And I cannot figure out what it is.

I mean why isn't Arcanine Fire/Normal? At least Rapidash has actual flames on its body, while Arcanine could even pass as a non-Fire pokemon if gamefreak wanted it to.

What's the thing that makes Litleo more Normal-type than Arcanine?

Etc.

Any ideas?

 

[Frezgle]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

I've always taken it to mean well-rounded in general. They seem to not have any regular trend with their base stats, unlike something like Electric, which almost exclusively has Pokemon with higher Speed and Special Attack (barring weirdos like Ampharos and Luxray).
I think the traits you've listed do hit the nail on the head, and Litleo and Helioptile don't make them wrong just because they don't seem to fit right now. They're either the exceptions that prove the rules, or there's something we don't know about them yet. Perhaps there's something about their identities that requires a characteristic need to be immune to Ghosts? That's honestly all I can think of at the moment, but I don't believe they'd just throw the type on them when there are plenty of other apparently-similar Pokemon with only elemental types.

 

[CMP]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

Litleo and Helioptile have absolutely made me question what makes a Normal type...well, Normal. At first I was hoping there would be a new XY gameplay mechanic in which the primary type took some type of precedence over secondary...whether it meant STAB calculation (say the regular 50% boost for the primary type but only 25% for the secondary type), type match up calculation, or even a breeding revision in which type played more of a role. I would've assumed that if this were the case Nintendo would've already announced it, but there could always be a surprise.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. The Normal type is almost a catch-all; it can represent plain, default, or jack-of-all trades Pokémon. I'm starting to think, though, that starting in XY, it can represent another group of Pokémon: those with hidden, untapped power who are just starting to exhibit traits in another type they will later have. We don't know Pyroar's full typing, so maybe it has a secondary type other than Normal. Perhaps Litleo has some ability to wield this type, but not enough to justify a full typing (and yet enough not to warrant pure Fire, either). Maybe Litleo/Helioptile (in addition to any other secondarily Normal types) can learn many moves of their future type? Or that by using them in Pokémon-amie you're able to bring out this untapped power? In this case, it's similar to your description of a default type, a placeholder, but perhaps with a little more behind it.

TD;DR: I really think there is something slightly new in XY about what makes a Normal type (in addition to plain, default types). I'm willing to bet it has to do with a new gameplay mechanic (perhaps even Pokémon-amie).

 

[Bashamo]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

My definition:
Normal type, the miscellaneous and etc. group. The name is an oxymoron compared to the amount of odd pokemon amongst the group.

It seems to be a filler type of sorts, anything that doesn't have a clear connection to other types seems to have a normal type until elemental add ons via evolution or form change that (Arceus, Eevee, Castform)

Now, how does that explain litleo and Helioptile?
Well, that depends on what you see their other elemental types as.
Litleo is a lion cub, other fire types have mythological basis with regal appearance. There are exceptions of course such as Typhlosion and Torkoal. But that seems to be a common trend in each generation, pyroar looks regal but also pretty plain outside of the mane, the normal type probably works like a suppresser that keeps it from looking as marvelous as, let's say, rapidash.

Helioptile imo doesn't have enough info to justify its typing a look at a hypothetical evolution(s) could change that.
So maybe pokemon with a normal type are neutralizers?

 

[Mitja]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

I noticed something about Litleo now with Pyroar officially revealed.

Only move we've really seen Litleo use was Noble Roar.

Now Pyroar has "roar" in its name, and can learn Echoed Voice.


See where I'm going with this?

Perhaps, as it became more clear in gen V with Tornadus, that pure elemental wind belongs to the Flying type (technically its type in the data is Flying/Flying, which results in pure type, and explains why the other two have Flying as secondary), maybe Pyroar is now simply showing that when Sound is prominent enough, and no other elements to take priority, it justifies an extra Normal type.
It just wasn't clear before with something sound-oriented, like Exploud, because there was no distinction to other pure Normals.

Sound-based abilities alone don't solve the case yet, as Helioptile has nothing to do with such.

Helioptiles evolution might be useful to the topic as well, if there is one...

Perhaps if its because of "Sound" for Pyroar, maybe it is due to raw "Light"-relation (it uses the "ears" as solar panels) for Helioptile.


Or heres another thought. What if primary types are more permanent/inherent to the pokemon, while secondary are more temporary/optional or external?
For example, Flying is basically secondary all the time, maybe due to the ability of flight being optional (they chose to fly when necessary, its not their default state).
Till now Normal has been featured only as primary. So Bibarel is not completely tied to Water, but it can employ that element when needed. Now Pyroar is a Fire Pokemon, but can abuse powerful sound-based moves when needed. And Helioptile absorbing light not constantly, but when it stretches its ears.
Another example being Rock and Steel, who are used more often as external armor or even as shells when secondary, and the creature itself being mineral/steel based when primary.
And then there is types like Bug and Dragon, which are much more often "primary", due the creature permanently being THAT kind of creature (notice how secondary ones aren't that obvious like Kingdra). So perhaps a typical case of secondary Bug or Dragon type, would be Pokemon, who can draw out their Dragon and Bug abilities on demand but aren't 100% evident in their biology (which can also explain Mega Ampharos).

Of course there are exceptions to probably everything I wrote. Sometimes its due to two types with roles of similar importance clashing, where its just a matter of priority (like Aggron), other times it is because a type has been gained and swapping them would look odd (Flygon gaining Dragon without swapping Ground to secondary, or Golem not reversing its type when it suddenly has a rocky armor instead of being a living rock and so on...)

 

[CMP]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

You bring up some great points, Mitja. It's absolutely consistent with what exists now (Whismur, Jigglypuff, Chatot lines), but it's never really been applied to Pokémon that weren't primary Normal.

I agree with your views on primary versus secondary classification (something I've believed for a long time), and combined with the above, Litleo/Pyroar's Fire/Normal typing makes perfect sense.

The only think that gets me, then, is Noivern. It's the Sound Wave Pokémon, so I would assume that if strong Sound-based abilities were enough to justify a Normal typing, it should be a great candidate for the type. Then again, because it's the Sound Wave Pokémon, it's Flying/wind ability seems to suit it. This is likely why Sound-types will never be an actual thing -- too many conditional cases.

 

[Mitja]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

All these sub-aspects like sound, light and wind, are represented as aspects of the Normal type (and Flying in winds case), UNLESS another type is involved.

So
-Exploud and Pyroar, raw sound: Normal
-Seismitoad, sound used to cause earthquakes: Ground covers that instead of Normal (perhaps if Seismitoad wasn't Water-type, it would be a combination of Ground and Normal)

And similarly, pure-wind based moves like Hurricane/Gust/Tailwind: Flying
But the moment another element is in play:
Leaf Storm/Leaf Tornado: Grass
Fire Spin: Fire
Sandstorm: Rock
Silver Wind: Bug
Twister: Dragon
Icy Wind: Ice
Ominous Wind: Ghost
...
(I cannot figure out why Whirlwind is Normal though)

And sound moves
Roar/Echoed Voice/Hyper Voice: Normal
Synchronoise: Psychic
Snarl: Dark
Bug Buzz: Bug
..

While all that might not give an obvious explanation for the absence of Normal in Noivern, I think it does give one.
Same case as Seismitoad using sound to cause quakes.
The Dragon type is associated with brutal raging destructive behaviour. And what does Noivern abuse sound for?

When I saw that move the first time, I even assumed it was a Dragon-type move...but its Normal.
The move is more raw sound based than it is supposed to be associated with Dragon-tendencies.
But again, back to Seismitoad.
So, its sound-abilities are covered by Ground, but the moves themselves are actually Normal
Noiverns sound-abilities might therefore be covered by the extra Dragon type, while the sound-based moves themselves are Normal.
Confusing enough?

 

[Zielo]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

Really interesting points.

I've always seen Normal type Pokemon as kind of like the Jack of All Trades aspect. Take Clefairy and Clefable for example. These little buggers can learn Ice Beam, Solarbeam, Thunder, Shadow Ball, Fire Blast, Psychic, as well as an array of Normal type moves. They have so many different types in them, it's impossible to define them as each and every one, so one single "Wild Card" typing is used. Speaking of cards, just look at the TCG. The current Normal type cards show a very, very faint rainbow of all the different types mixed in the middle of the white coloration.

As far as Normal moves go, I've always seen it as basic things that just about anything and everything can do, such as scratching, hitting, shouting, protecting, and I guess whirlwind could just be blowing or waving your arms like a maniac, but using more of your own individual abilities than the Flying element. If you look, every single Pokemon has a bit of Normal in them (move-wise.) Normal, in a sense, is just the group name they use that fits everything that almost anything can do. Pokemon uses it as it's own type because all of these individual moves (scratch, growl, pound) would all affect anything in the same way, since almost anything can do those regular abilities, which explains why Normal isn't super effective on anything.

That being said, Normal type Pokemon and Normal type moves are defined as two different things to me. One means all around elemental, and the other means plain and regular. And the reason some Normal typed Pokemon have more Normal moves than anything, is because that specific Pokemon relies more on its own instinct and abilities than it does elements (Like Teddiursa and Ursaring.)

If a Pokemon knows more Normal moves, it is part Normal type. If it knows a huge variety of moves, it also becomes Normal type. Basically, the kind of moves a Pokemon knows makes its Normal typing, the typing doesn't make its moves.

And as for why Litleo and Pyroar are part Normal type, that may just mean this specific Pokemon relies heavily on its own abilities as well as the Fire element in particular. This doesn't seem like it would be a Pokemon that relies on many different elements so thats where I get that conclusion.

It's a Fire pokemon (to the point where it has a fire kanji symbol in the mane!), but then it is also some extra nothing special on the side?

Yep, thats basically how I see it. It all comes down to an individual Pokemon. Arcanine just relies more on the Fire element than its own abilities. Pyroar relies heavily on both the Fire element and its own abilities. Don't confuse the Pokemon's design for what it can do. Although some people might want to argue that there is something special about being able to wield your own abilities skillfully.

 

[98Greener]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

Normal.
Let's say that you tried to attack a bear. Just a regular one.
A bear will not spit fire at you. A bear will not summon lightning storms.
It will punch, bite, scratch, and tackle you.
Basically, it's a animal instincts. It will relatively be relatively normal.


Lions are pretty normal to me. Now, if we give it fire powers....
The same will probably go for Helioptile. Lizards are normal.
Let's give it some electric powers. Same deal.

 

[Mitja]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

Normal.
Let's say that you tried to attack a bear. Just a regular one.
A bear will not spit fire at you. A bear will not summon lightning storms.
It will punch, bite, scratch, and tackle you.
Basically, it's a animal instincts. It will relatively be relatively normal.


Lions are pretty normal to me. Now, if we give it fire powers....
The same will probably go for Helioptile. Lizards are normal.
Let's give it some electric powers. Same deal.

But that only satisfactory explains Bibarel/Girafarig/Sawsbuck/etc, with Litleo and Helioptile its the other way around. They are already elemental types but have Normal in addition.
I mean where is the /Normal type for Arcanine, Luxray, Typhlosion, Manectric and so on?

 

[MuhFugginMoose]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

This may be a bit of a stretch, but since the reveal of the their typing, I've always thought of it as subject to change. Where he goes from being your typical fire breathing lion (they're everywhere) to whatever the second typing maybe. I still stand by that, but then I got to thinking. . .
Clearly they're going to be doing more gender oriented Pokemon, where they differ in more than just appearance. (See "Nyaonikusu") Now, we all know Male Lions, and Female lions differ in a huge way. Apart from just the lack of mane. One needs to be more outward and aggressive while the other stays back and holds the fort down. Take the aesthetics of lions and lionesses, smack that ability Rivalry on it, and I have a good feeling the gender difference can play a huge part. It may change type based on gender as well. Or, it may change type later.
Either way, for both Litleo, and Helioptile, I don't see that normal secondary typing sticking around in their final evolution.

 

[98Greener]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

Normal.
Let's say that you tried to attack a bear. Just a regular one.
A bear will not spit fire at you. A bear will not summon lightning storms.
It will punch, bite, scratch, and tackle you.
Basically, it's a animal instincts. It will relatively be relatively normal.


Lions are pretty normal to me. Now, if we give it fire powers....
The same will probably go for Helioptile. Lizards are normal.
Let's give it some electric powers. Same deal.

But that only satisfactory explains Bibarel/Girafarig/Sawsbuck/etc, with Litleo and Helioptile its the other way around. They are already elemental types but have Normal in addition.
I mean where is the /Normal type for Arcanine, Luxray, Typhlosion, Manectric and so on?

Well, that would mean you give Fire type some basic moves. In this case, you're giving a pyro lion the abilty to amplify his roars into damaging attacks.

The way I see it, is that all Pokemon in the world can scratch and tackle you. It just won't do that much damage. Normal types can take their tackle, and make it cause more damage. It's adding a giant boost to animal instincts.
Does that make sense?

 

[Cinesra]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

But that only satisfactory explains Bibarel/Girafarig/Sawsbuck/etc, with Litleo and Helioptile its the other way around. They are already elemental types but have Normal in addition.
I mean where is the /Normal type for Arcanine, Luxray, Typhlosion, Manectric and so on?

Those aren't regular animals like the majority of the Normal type(which includes both that and miscellaneous things like Exploud and Licktung that don't fit into another type). Most Pokemon have something to do with real world animals, but are more focused on their elemental attributes like Manectric or their concept/theme like Arcanine and Luxray than just being a regular animal. Take Pyroar for instance. The only thing that really separates it from being a stylized real world lion is its red mane. It's just a normal lion that happens to have some elemental powers as opposed to a creature whose very essence is being an element.

One could ask the question of whether Arbok should be mono Poison. Lots of, if not all, real world cobras are venomous, so what makes it a pure Poison type instead of Poison/Normal? Personally, I'd say that Arbok being giant, purple, and having very different markings from actual cobras makes it different enough from a regular cobra to no longer justify the Normal typing.

This is the best I can come up with, but this reasoning does have some flaws. When does a Pokemon become different enough from a real world animal to no longer justify a Normal type? The cutoff is subjective so we're bound to have gray areas.

 

[Pokequaza]

RE: What is the Normal type about?

I think it's nothing more than a recognition of the ''general'' moves. By giving them a secondary Normal-type, it doesn't add much, except that they have now STAB Normal moves. I thought about the additional weakness to Fighting, but there isn't a reason why they should have that. Perhaps, in the case of Litleo/Pyroar, their Fire movepool will be more shallow than other Fire Pokémon, but they will receive a STAB from Normal type moves as a compensation. I don't really know. I'm curious, though, what Helioptile will end up being, and if these two are the only Pokémon to have this.

 

[Spartan Sceptile]

RE: What is the Normal-Type About?

Normal types are where pokemon with no fitting types get put, I mean Litleo and Pyroar are flaming Lions but they are still Lions, something normal in our world, An Great example is Eevee, its based on what seems to be a squirrel cat thing, It has something plain about it and nothing about it stands out (other than the fact that it evolves into a vast variety of types). It doesn't have anything specific about it to make it another type, its normal, plain, Lemme show you More examples.

Meowth - Based on a Cat, seems to be normal, nothing special about its design ( Other than its annoying as f*** in the anime)

Tauros - Based on a Multi-Taled Bull, This pokemon shows what super glue can do, It seems Normal enough

Slaking - Giant Model Sloths are normal, I mean, It could be Part fighting type due to the Bulkiness of him but other than that he is Normal.


Here is where it gets a bit titsy bitsy, Flying/Normal types, Why do so many flying types have Normal as a secondary type? Well Birds are normal unless they're flaming f***s of freedom. In our world, Birds are literally everywhere, they are part of the environment, they are ''Normal'' in our world which is the transferred to Pokémon land to make sense

Some normal pokemon make Little-to-no Sense that they are normal because they look like something else

Porygon Z - What is normal about a man-made Psycho robot that causes seizures, wut????

Watchog - Looks like a rat just found his favourite tv show, ''Pirating With Porygon Z'' , Seriously, he looks like he has watched the whole season 50 times!!!

Regigigas - Ok this is the big one which I will probably get a lot of hate from but, How is a 420Kg Telepathic communicating Golem Creating Continent Moving Giant Normal!?!?!! I do not see which type he would fit but that further proves one of my points above, I guess everything that is white is normal....

 

[Mitja]

RE: What is the Normal-Type About?

Its Normal because it is a >insert mammal here<, doesn't make much sense.
Because there is just as many casual animals in pretty much every other type, yet until Litleo, none of them were secondary Normal.

And there are no Flying/Normal Pokemon, every single casual bird is Normal/Flying.

I mean, your post doesn't answer why Pyroar gets an extra Normal type, while Arcanine/Ninetales/Simisear/Flareon don't.

 

[FoxFire]

RE: What is the Normal-Type About?

Best guess (and a guess is all it is) ...
They just now decided that Pokemon that are just 'elemental regular animals' get the Normal typing in addition to another type, but didn't want to retcon lots of other Mon, since they were already doing the Fairy retcon.

Also, I'd think that those you mention, except maybe Flareon, aren't based on regular animals. Arcanine is a foo dog or lion, Ninetales is the mythical kitsune, Simisear/Pour/Sage are based on the three wise monkeys, sometimes called 'three mystic apes'. All of them are based off legendary/mythical/magical creatures.

Pyroar, Heliolisk, and Diggersby are all just a lion, a frilled lizard, and a rabbit with superpowers. To the extent of my knowledge (and brief research), they have no mythological basis.

 

[HoOhLugia]

RE: What is the Normal-Type About?

Probably, Normal Type comes in when there is no other type that can fit into that Pokemon (not in all instances).
As for Litleo and Pyroar, maybe the normal type has to do with the plains that they live in?