Tinkaton, Tinkatuff, & Tinatink from ‘Triplet Beat’!

DMYSYS said:
And if you get it wrong you end up with completely uncontrolled power creep across the board for years to come.

The point of my post wasn't to take "balance" the way you have, but to argue for a reduction of HP and HP caps across the board, not an increase. In terms of how you handle that given it'd be a step down from what came before;
- Hard format rotation to ensure the viability of the TCG as a long-term game. This would probably be unpopular, so the next best thing;
- Print more attacks that are specifically punitive against Pokémon V/VMAX/VSTAR but are not necessarily punitive against Pokémon ex. e.g. "If The Defending Pokémon is a Pokémon V, this attack does [some extra amount of damage]", various Trainer cards that punish players for having Pokémon V/etc in play. Then, once you've cleared the old format's multiprizers out, go after the multi-prizers of the current format. When multiprize cards originally debuted, there were a ton of cards with punitive "If the Defending Pokémon is Pokémon-ex..." attacks so that running Pokémon-ex really leaned into the entire idea of cost/benefit. People also forget multiprizers left the format for basically an entire generation, too, and there was an extended period of time where Lv.X cards were clunkier to get into play than Pokémon-ex (several Lv.X were de facto Stage 4 cards).

Generation 5, like it was a mess for the video games, was also a mess for the TCG, since it brought back multiprize cards in such a lousy, hamfisted way, and seems to have baked in the contemporary thinking that the only way to fix the game is to keep making numbers go up. Gen 3 (and Gen 4) TCG game balance is entirely different from what you are proposing.
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The return of balancing cards like Fluffy Berry and Double Rainbow Energy would actually be a very smart idea. Those effects demonstrated an attention to even the most minute details, a level of dedication to game design that has not been seen either before or since. Even the fourth generation block had its fair share of unhealthy cards. I believe this is one reason why the EX block format is becoming popular-at least compared to other retro formats-online.
Just to be clear, however, the idea Yangiku advocated above was to raise only one number; the HP of single prize Pokémon. Not the HP of anything else. Not the damage of anything period. Right now 200 damage seems to be what the average double prize Pokémon is capable of doing. Which means Pokémon is trying to balance the game so that stage 2 ex's can tank a couple of hits. Now, if you compare the old Arcanine ex to the new Arcanine ex, 250 damage has essentially become the threshold for "that mid-range, heavy-investment attack on a multiprize Pokémon." Essentially what 100 damage was during the EX era. Back in the EX era, there was about a 50 HP gap between Arcanine ex's attack and the maximum HP (discounting Wailord ex), just as there is about a 100 HP gap between the new Arcanine ex's attack and the maximum HP. The theory was to reestablish something closer to the previous ratio of damage-to-HP-to-stage-to-costs-to-prizes, freezing the highest numbers where they are and raising the lower numbers accordingly. However, you identified another really important piece of the puzzle when you pointed out the existence of cards balanced against the merits of Pokémon ex.
I'm only synthesizing what I've heard other people say. I'm guessing you and Yangiku have a much greater, first-hand knowledge of game design than I do. (I'm pretty sure Yangiku even has a college degree in that field, or at least has a strong professional interest.) This is reminding me of the time a discussion on the toxicity of Arceus, Dialga, and Palkia GX turned into a very thoughtful, analytical, critical analysis headed by a user named Otaku (whose subtitle is, ironically, "the wise fool?"). What started with several people (including me) ranting about the woes of the day led to a compilation of documentary-worthy material (starting near the top of page 2). You can find the discussion at the link below. This was back in early 2021, by the way, during the pandemic years, and the forums were far more turbulent then than they are now (which was one reason why I eventually quit the forums for a while). Perhaps some of you would be interested in reading?
https://www.pokebeach.com/forums/threads/vmaxes-adp-and-the-terrible-power-creep.151926/page-2
 
Sucks in standard, psychic GLC could find a way to play this but idk if it wants to put in a 3rd stage 2
 
Yaginku said:
I'm just gonna copy-paste this comment under every new Pokemon where it applies, if you feel the need to design Pokemon that hit above their own HP, then their own HP should be higher.

Tinkaton is a Stage 2, it should have 200-250 HP.
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200-250? That is extremely high for stage 2’s. Yea, some have it. But not everyone should have it. Also, tinkatin smol goblin
 
ProfesserPopplio said:
200-250? That is extremely high for stage 2’s. Yea, some have it. But not everyone should have it. Also, tinkatin smol goblin
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Just like 340 is an extremely high health for any Pokemon to have. This isn't 2017 anymore. If you're going to powercreep one brand of cards by 100 HP, then all other Pokemon should follow to keep things balanced.
 
From now on they should just give middle evolutions without an ability bench barrier just to give these single prize stage 2 lines a chance. Maybe that one Machoke's specific bench barrier, but to the self.

That would fix the game imo.
 
Positive points:

- Kouki Saitou art on Tinkaton!

Negative points:

- 140 HP on a Stage 2 should be virtually unheard of at this point. It's insane that around 120 HP on Stage 2 keeps happening when that was a thing in Generation I. At least the Tinkatink is 70 HP - I think 60 HP Basics should be nonexistent unless it's an infamously weak Pokemon or it has some sort of amazing attributes to make up for it. I'm so tired of power creep being so much higher on multiprize Pokemon. If you're going to power creep, try to do it at least semi-evenly!

- The Ability, while not completely worthless, is just not powerful enough to warrant using a Stage 2 considering the draw options available with Basic and Stage 1 Pokemon. Not only that, but it's also rather boring to see considering another card in format, Hisuian Samurott, already has it.

- The attack isn't the worst thing ever, but Snorlax is a Basic that can hit 180, so who really cares?
 
Yaginku said:
Just like 340 is an extremely high health for any Pokemon to have. This isn't 2017 anymore. If you're going to powercreep one brand of cards by 100 HP, then all other Pokemon should follow to keep things balanced.
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Yes, but these stage 2’s don’t have to give up more then 1 prize
 
Like it was already mentioned here, I think what really rubs players the wrong way is the easiness and abundance of OHKO potential in the last years, it really was much more common for stuff to 2-hit-ko back then, and it made the game have better pacing and back and forths. At face value one could argue that how high the numbers are is irrelevant, and that what truly matters is the relations between them. And that is true, to a point, we've seen that idea taken to its ultimate consequences with Vmaxes, eveything hits ridiculous numbers, but they're huge as well, AND they give up 3 prizes! What could possibly go wrong? Well, I mean, it could ruin the pace of the game, and we could devolve into "go first, kill their evolving V turn 2" disasters... Anyway, as much as some people seem to want that, it would be impossible for them to simply reset numbers entirely, for better or worse one format is tied to the next, and if they did that, we'd have a full year of no cards from the new era being used until rotation (aside from trainers, obviously). So given what they had in their hands, I think they nailed it. The pivoting from Vmaxes into Vstars was a stroke of genius, they give 2 prizes instead of 3, and it makes the reintroduction of exs much more smooth (stage 1 exs have about the same hp as a vstar and give the same amount of prizes). And we seem to be heading into a format with 1, 2, and 3 prizers all being used to some extent, not rarely into the same decks, so games seem more dynamic and the prize race more interesting (just go watch omnipoke's tabletop games). Nature is healing, we're headed in the right direction.
 
DMYSYS said:
on the contrary. we must demand a retvrn to gen 3 levels of balance, rather than request for runaway power creep across the board
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We cannot return to the old times anymore. Embrace the meta we're living now. Everything is fast-paced and games done within less than 10 turns now. Power Creep is real and inevitable.
 
JaniK said:
and 1 prizers Stage 2 still same low hp
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While Tinkaton is on the (very) lower end of stage 2s, other cards has been steadily rising up. Most stage 2s of SV era are around 150-170 range, with the highest I could think of being Brilliant Stars Torterra at 190 HP. The latest Hydreigon went up to 180 too, as well as the Gyarados (of which is a stage 1, but commonly set to have average stage 2 stats). While not immediately noticeable, this is also a big increase from USUM era stage 2s, which was about 140-160.

Honestly instead of making stage 2s catch up to multiprizers, we should bring multiprizers DOWN to stage 2s.
 
N's Rhyperior said:
We cannot return to the old times anymore. Embrace the meta we're living now. Everything is fast-paced and games done within less than 10 turns now. Power Creep is real and inevitable.
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You’re right about that. The TCG has improved significantly from where it has been for several years, but we probably shouldn’t expect it to get much slower. Ten turns is certainly better than 3 or 4 turns. As for embracing the current meta, I’ve personally enjoyed the possibilities opened up by the Inteleon and Lost Zone engines, so if I get a chance to play newer formats with someone (I’m currently not financially invested in the game enough to build a deck, so I’d probably use proxies), I’ll happily use a deck built with one of these engines. That being said, I also enjoy playing Gym Leader Challenge with friends and older formats on TCGONE, yet I’ve still never attended TCGONE or built competitive decks in PTCGO, so I’m sure my case is an unusual one. I guess I just enjoy Pokémon.
Our previous discussion was primarily an academic discussion about what it would look like to return to third generation balance, by the way. The conclusion was that there was more than one simple factor at play, with a narrow HP gap between single prize and multi prize Pokémon going hand in hand with cards and effects carefully balanced against the fact that Pokémon ex were not only bigger, but kept less resources to maintain.
 
Returning to DMYSYS's comment earlier, I was browsing through PTCG Legends' deck lists for SUM-LOT (https://ptcglegends.com/decks-by-era/2018/sum-lot), and I noticed a lot of decks running a card called Super Boost Energy (Prism Star). For those who've never heard of it or don't remember what it does, it provides one Colorless Energy under normal conditions, one of any Energy when attached to a stage 2, and a whopping 4 of any Energy when you have 3 or more Stage 2's in play. This card seems to have seen play in the same decks as support Pokémon like Swampert CES and Meganium LOT, which improved the consistency and speed, respectively, of your decks, and, in Swampert's case, could utilize Super Boost Energy to start swinging for 160 damage (190 with Choice Band) in a single turn, with a single attachment. This rotation lay precisely between the rotation of Strong Energy and the debut of Tag Teams, meaning cards like Decidueye GX and Gardevoir GX had a brief opening to return to the format, and these decks were further supported by Solgaleo GX, the Fairy type Ninetales GX, and Ditto Prism Star. I'm not sure I've ever seen a modern Standard format quite as diverse and stage 2 friendly as this before. That's not saying the powerhouses from 2018 Worlds (Buzzwole, Zoroark, Malamar, and Rayquaza) didn't give these stage 2 decks a hard time, but it's fun to see how a Special Energy and a few great stage 2's permitted stage 2 archetypes a moment of success. In any case, SUM-LOT gives me an idea of what Double Rainbow or Scramble Energy spiritual successors could do for standard, given the right partners.
 
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