No Heart, No Soul?

[RogueChomp]

^ Yesterday I went against a Donphan prime. It ran through me because of its Max Potion abuse. I've also seen the random Vileplume, Tyram, MTC, T Tar, Mewscoops. There are better decks to use then them, but they are all still good decks, except magnezone/eels. IMO it shouldn't be played because it loses needed energies and can easily be KOed. It isn't fast either....

 

[Simwar]

I too would agree with all the statements Dark Void made. If Terrakion always had 3 energies or were return-attacking from KOs! Which people seems to forget that it doesn't do all the time. Straight Terrakion is so much easier to outspeed with both Darkrai and ZekEel.

"Donphan loses the prize trade to Terrakion unless it has a PlusPower or Rocky Helmet"
No. Donphan loses the prize trade to Terrakion unless it has Max Potion. The thing is, Donphan WILL have Max Potion, which they can abuse so well because they only need 1 energy to start attacking again.

Of course this isn't the mathcup to worry about. A few months ago I would have agreed with everyone who said that Terrakion outclasses Donphan in any way except the matchup against each other. However the metagame changed a lot with Dark Explores bringing us Darkrai EX. If you look over the list of National Championships you'll see that it placed 1st in Masters in Argentina, Finland, Denmark, Italy, Sweden and Norway. So Darkrai is the opponent to worry about.

"Against Donphan Darkrai also loses the prize trade, but not quite as steeply, giving it more time"
The fact that Donphan can start putting preasure on Darkrai T2 with a consistent 120 damage makes it so much more viable than Terrakion. Darkrai will only make the OHKO against Donphan with Darkness Claw and 3x SP {D} / PlusPower which isn't very likely. This gives Donphan a very good change to deny Darkrai Prizes while keeping up the high damage output. Terrakion in itself is easier to play around because it will only be dangerous if it has 3 energies or when you KO one of them. So you just have to focus on KOing them where they have the most energy to take away their advantage.

I'm not saying to run straight Donphan decks, because then you would be doomed against Tornadus EX. But I feel like too many people underestimsted Donphan in this format. It's a really great addition to straight fighting decks.

"every main attacker in the format has a better prize trade against Donphan than Terrakion, why do you think Donphan is better?"
You can't keep prize trading if you setup isn't consistent.

 

[Dork Void]

I knew someone would bring up an argument of Donphan being more consistent than Terrakion. I don't feel that it is. Terrakion needs 1 Pokemon and 2 energy. Donphan needs 2 Pokemon and 1 energy. Since you can run far more than 4 copies of energy, Terrakion is more consistent. On top of this, only Ultra Ball and Pokemon Communication can search out both Phanphy AND Donphan, whereas every Pokemon in Tetrakion can be searched out by Collector, Dual Ball, or Heavy Ball. This makes Donphan less consistent because not only does it need more Pokemon cards, it also needs more Pokemon searching, which removed space for consistency cards.

In addition, Donphan seems to have a greater need of PlusPower, Rocky Helmet, and/or Ruins of Alph, and especially Max Potion than Terrakion. These are unsearchable trainers, decreasing consistency firstly because they are required to win/tie certain matchups and secondly because once again, less room for consistency cards like Juniper.

In addition, the problem with Donphan vs. Darkrai imo is how bad it is against Tornadus (EX), which all Darkrai-central decks run. Even if the opponent starts Darkrai, all they need is an energy and a basic searcher and they can retreat to Tornadus (EX) turn 1 so you're not going to be doing much to them quickly with Donphan unless you waste a bunch of Catchers, but this doesn't even score a KO and they can easily retreat again.

 

[Simwar]

It's not a problem to run ultra ball and communication. If you balance it well you will also be able to use a few heavy balls which can also search for Terrakion.

It's not like Terrakion doesn't need support cards too. Terrakion needs Exp. Share to keep the energy going and also Shaymin to make it more splashable.
Terrakion needs the Pluspower as well to make the OHKO on eviolited Zekrom EX and Darkrai EX.

I'm not saying to run straight Donphan. I'm saying it's an great addition to a fighting deck against Darkrai. When using Dpnphan against them you kinda force them to rely on Tornadus EX and then you drop something els to handle it so that they can't use their main attacker, which lower their overall consistency.

 

[Emopanda133]

Most Tetrakionlists have Dual Ball and Heavy Ball...like mine.-_-

 

[alex]

Donphan 2HKOs Darkrai. Terrakion OHKOs. Donphan is also completely wrecked by Tornadus.

 

[Simwar]

^Always ready to contribute to a good discussion xD

 

[Serperior]

Are we still on topic? I feel this turned into a Donphan vs Terrakion thread...

Anyways, if we are talking Pokemon, then yes. The BW Pokemon surpass the GS Pokemon by a mile with power, speed, and HP. T/S/S, no. PONT and friends will be missed. These were the backbones of our decks.

They will be missed. :'(

 

[Emopanda133]

Donphan 2HKOs Darkrai. Terrakion OHKOs. Donphan is also completely wrecked by Tornadus.

Terrakion OHKO's when someone is KO'd. If my active is KO'd, I have one built to OHKO Darkrai, but by then, I have already 2HKO'd one Darkrai. Prize trade 1-4 in favor of Donphan.

AND DONPHAN IS NOT WRECKED BY TORNADUS OR TORNADUS EX!

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Are we still on topic? I feel this turned into a Donphan vs Terrakion thread...

Anyways, if we are talking Pokemon, then yes. The BW Pokemon surpass the GS Pokemon by a mile with power, speed, and HP. T/S/S, no. PONT and friends will be missed. These were the backbones of our decks.

They will be missed. :'(

I didn't mean to compare the two sets, I just want to show everyone that HGSS can still be effective outside of just a few cards (mentioned previously).

 

[Dork Void]

Terrakion OHKO's when someone is KO'd. If my active is KO'd, I have one built to OHKO Darkrai, but by then, I have already 2HKO'd one Darkrai. Prize trade 1-4 in favor of Donphan.

AND DONPHAN IS NOT WRECKED BY TORNADUS OR TORNADUS EX!

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The problem is that Darkrai is so easy to retreat. If you don't OHKO it on the turn its placed in the active spot, it will simply retreat and hit Donphan with Tornadus (EX), then you have to waste a Catcher to get a KO and if you do Donphan just gets KOed, and then there's no more Darkrai to kill and they win the prize trade easily with Tornadus (EX).

TYPING/SHOUTING IN CAPS IS NOT A VALID SUBSTITUTE FOR EVIDENCE AS TO HOW THAT IS POSSIBLE!

 

[Emopanda133]

This is a post from "Empoleon/Terrakion Viability" in the Competitive Collective:

My match against Darkrai/Tornadus from BR.

In the first game, he opened with Smeargle and Darkrai (attaches one energy), his turn two he uses Dual ball for two Tornadus EX's (junk arm'd two Dark energy and used Dark Patch on Darkrai), first KO was turn two, me KOing the Smeargle with Eartquake. He pulls up the Tornadus EX with no Eviolite and attaches a DCE to it, plays Shaymin to get the Dark Energy (one one each Tornadus) from Darkrai, hits for 80, but has to discard, drops the Dark Energy, takes 20 from Rocky Helmet. I Top Deck Ruins of Alph, play it, N'd, and hit a Max Potion, healed, attached another Energy and Earthquaked (Tornadus at 80), He attaches a Eviolite to benched Tornadus and attaches a Dark to the active, attacks, I attach to bench (bench has two energy now) and earthquake, it had 10 damage left, he KO'd my Active Donphan and KO's himself. The second one took a bit quicker. I hit for 70, he hit for 80 (Tornadus EX at 90 damage on it), Plus power, Junk Armed for a Plus Power, hit for 80. From there he Patched Darkrai and KO'd me. I throw up my third and last Donphan (prized Phanpy stopped #4). I Eathqauke, he hits for 100 (special dark and claw) I max potion, attach and Earthqauke again.

Game two went about the same, but was just, horrible. The first Tornadus EX didn't hit for 80 like the other guy, but instead hit for 40 with my T1 Ruins (thought it was great, turned out not to be), I hit for 60, he attaches and KO's me, I return KO'd with benched (three energy). He Catchers up my other bench (No Energy) plays Dark Patch onto Darkrai, attaches DCE to Tornadus with an Eviolite, plays Energy Switch (haven't seen that card in a long time) and hits for 80. I attached (No Switch in hand.>.<) an energy to active, hit for 40 (Tornadus EX stays at 40, no Rocky Helmet on my Donphan) He KO's me, I come back and hit for 70. He hits for 80, I KO him, he KO's me with Darkrai...I ended up with a fresh Donphan with three energy, use your imagination.

 

[Dork Void]

This is a post from "Empoleon/Terrakion Viability" in the Competitive Collective:

My match against Darkrai/Tornadus from BR, first round of top 4 cut.

In the first game, he opened with Smeargle and Darkrai (attaches one energy), his turn two he uses Dual ball for two Tornadus EX's (junk arm'd two Dark energy and used Dark Patch on Darkrai), first KO was turn two, me KOing the Smeargle with Eartquake. He pulls up the Tornadus EX with no Eviolite and attaches a DCE to it, plays Shaymin to get the Dark Energy (one one each Tornadus) from Darkrai, hits for 80, but has to discard, drops the Dark Energy, takes 20 from Rocky Helmet. I Top Deck Ruins of Alph, play it, N'd, and hit a Max Potion, healed, attached another Energy and Earthquaked (Tornadus at 80), He attaches a Eviolite to benched Tornadus and attaches a Dark to the active, attacks, I attach to bench (bench has two energy now) and earthquake, it had 10 damage left, he KO'd my Active Donphan and KO's himself. The second one took a bit quicker. I hit for 70, he hit for 80 (Tornadus EX at 100 damage on it), I Junk Armed for a Plus Power, hit for 80. From there he Patched Darkrai and KO'd me. I throw up my third and last Donphan (prized Phanpy stopped #4). I Eathqauke, he hits for 100 (special dark and claw) I max potion, attach and Earthqauke again.

So you hit a basic, a stage 1, and energy, and 3 unsearchable trainers through sheer luck. He got a basic, 3 energy, not one of his own unsearchable trainers, and flips tails on a coin flip. See how the way you dealt with that first Tornadus could be considered extremely lucky and just a fluke? The second one was also the same, pulling out a harder to set up Pokemon and tons of unsearchable trainers. You can't count on that happening consistently. Also, had they taken the time to use the first attack somewhere to discard your RoA, you probably would have lost that prize trade anyway.

Game two went about the same, but was just, horrible. The first Tornadus EX didn't hit for 80 like the other guy, but instead hit for 40 with my T1 Ruins (thought it was great, turned out not to be), I hit for 60, he attaches and KO's me, I return KO'd with benched (three energy). He Catchers up my other bench (No Energy) plays Dark Patch onto Darkrai, attaches DCE to Tornadus with an Eviolite, plays Energy Switch (haven't seen that card in a long time) and hits for 80. I attached (No Switch in hand.>.<) an energy to active, hit for 40 (Tornadus EX stays at 40, no Rocky Helmet on my Donphan) He KO's me, I come back and hit for 70. He hits for 80, I KO him, he KO's me with Darkrai...I ended up with a fresh Donphan with three energy, use your imagination.

 

[Emopanda133]

I played two supporters, each of the cards I hit are 3+ of in my deck.

As for the RoA theory, round two I played Groudon/Tornadus and didn't hit ROA until the very last turn. In that time, I Ko'd a Groudon, a Tornadus, and an EX, he got three of my Donphans. Without prize rule, fair trade, with, 3-5 in favor of me. That RoA let me Catcher KO a Shaymin. If Shaymin wasn't there, I would've had to KO another Tornadus non-EX. I would've won either way.

 

[Puff-Sun]

Pardon the intrusion, but how in the world does Tornadus EX discard Stadiums? It's first attack simply does 30 damage + 30 more damage if a stadium is in play.

 

[Dork Void]

Pardon the intrusion, but how in the world does Tornadus EX discard Stadiums? It's first attack simply does 30 damage + 30 more damage if a stadium is in play.

Wow. I really need to pay more attention to the card. My apologies. But still, it seems very unlikely even with 3-4 of each card that by turn 2-3 you've hit one of each of the 3 of them, even with a hand refresh every turn. Also it seems like your hand could really get clogged with those and no supporters if you run so many...

 

[alex]

Terrakion OHKO's when someone is KO'd. If my active is KO'd, I have one built to OHKO Darkrai, but by then, I have already 2HKO'd one Darkrai. Prize trade 1-4 in favor of Donphan.

Wait... What?

And Tornadus absolutely destroys Donphan lol. Donphan does 20 damage a turn to it.

 

[Emopanda133]

Wait... What?

And Tornadus absolutely destroys Donphan lol. Donphan does 20 damage a turn to it.

If you don't know how to play it, then yes, it does. But if you are a real player, you know how to do a constant 60 per turn (40+RH20 if Eviolited) I've 2HKO'd Tornadus EX before, you just have to know how to play Donphan. Earthquake is not his only attack.

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Terrakion needs someone to be KO'd to OHKO Darkrai unless you get three energy on him. Donphan can do 120 T2 to Darkrai. While that one 2HKO's Darkrai, be smart and build up another Donphan on bench. When they KO Donphan T4, Use Heavy impact to do 180 and the OHKO to the second Darkrai.

 

[alex]

If you use Ruins of Alph, I'm bringing out Zekrom and OHKOing with a Pluspower because of your damage to bench. If not, you're 5HKOing Tornadus. 9HKOing if you don't have Rocky Helmet.

And if your opponent lets you use Heavy Impact, your not doing very good play testing.

 

[Emopanda133]

If you use Ruins of Alph, I'm bringing out Zekrom and OHKOing with a Pluspower because of your damage to bench. If not, you're 5HKOing Tornadus. 9HKOing if you don't have Rocky Helmet.

And if your opponent lets you use Heavy Impact, your not doing very good play testing.

It's not about letting, it's about be able too, Put two energy, not three on your bench, when one goes active, it already has two energy, attach third, Catcher Zekrom, hey look, dead Zekrom EX. Zekrom EX is a threat to Donphan, if you have Plus Power, BUT, without it, you're gonna have to be lucky to win the trade. If Donphan goes first, auto-loss, if you go first but no plus power, I can hit Max Potion ( I run three compared to your max of 2 Plus Power, so I'll more likely hit mine) and attach, 2HKOing Zekrom EX with no damage. You have to go first and I can't hit a Max Potion to win. And that's early game. Late game, I have one or two Heavy Impact ready Donphans, your Zekrom EX is useless at that point.

Donphan doesn't damage bench unless you still have Phanpy on bench, Donphan can't damage Donphan.

I have never taken more than 4 turns to KO Tornadus EX. Normally, you're right, Donphan against Tornadus EX techs or decks is bad, but if you know how to play a Donphan Deck, you can win. You just have to have a consistent list. You can argue all the points you want, but I've been winning with Donphan in Post-DE format, so I'm either the luckiest person in Pokemon, or just good because the people in my meta are not push-overs, especially at tournaments.

 

[alex]

I repeat.

Wait... What?

You're not going to be able to attach multiple energy to one Donphan when you're getting OHKOed every turn, which is what will be happening. So you can't use Heavy Impact. Nobody runs Zekrom EX any more, and if they did, they would be attacking with it and OHKOing your Donphans (You hurt your bench, or I have a PP. Not too hard to get), again not letting you Heavy Impact... Again, if your opponent is bad enough that you're able to use Heavy Impact, you're not doing good play testing. Max Potion wont help you when you're getting OHKOed.

Hmm, you don't damage Donphan with Earthquake, but you damage Phanpy. How do you evolve into Donphan again? You only need 10 damage on it to save the ZekEels player a Pluspower, and that's what you give them.

Uh, I read that as "I've never taken more than 4 turns to KO a Tornadus EX because I can just erase all of the points that deny me from 4HKOing." I would love to hear what tournaments you have been winning with Donphan, pre or post DE.

You also only 3HKO an Eviolited Mewtwo, while it is most likely OHKOing you.