Discussion Mega Rayquaza EX Counters
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RE: What to do about Mega Ray?
Head Ringer, Enhanced Hammers, and Wallys+2-2 Circle Circuit Raichu w/ full non-Skyfield(meaning 5 pokemon) bench and Muscle Band...
^ Enough said...
Head Ringer, Enhanced Hammers, and Wallys+2-2 Circle Circuit Raichu w/ full non-Skyfield(meaning 5 pokemon) bench and Muscle Band...
^ Enough said...
RE: What to do about Mega Ray?
None of that necessarily works.
The problem with Rayquaza is how little time you have to do anything. Ray can get going turn 1 or more consistently turn 2, and if it goes first, it's going to have the board it wants before you have a chance to set anything up (and if it goes second, it doesn't mind switching out its active Rayquaza that you put a Head Ringer on while setting up the others). Raichu theoretically prize trades very well with it, but that's assuming you get enough Raichu out before you lose. A 2-2 Raichu line is also likely only 4 prizes--you have no way to kill the last Rayquaza if your deck isn't prepared to deal with it in some other way--220 hp is a LOT. Heck, even Manectric doesn't really work--Rayquaza's can be streamed fairly easily and you prize trade evenly--except that Rayquaza is faster and more consistent, so it wins that war.
None of that necessarily works.
The problem with Rayquaza is how little time you have to do anything. Ray can get going turn 1 or more consistently turn 2, and if it goes first, it's going to have the board it wants before you have a chance to set anything up (and if it goes second, it doesn't mind switching out its active Rayquaza that you put a Head Ringer on while setting up the others). Raichu theoretically prize trades very well with it, but that's assuming you get enough Raichu out before you lose. A 2-2 Raichu line is also likely only 4 prizes--you have no way to kill the last Rayquaza if your deck isn't prepared to deal with it in some other way--220 hp is a LOT. Heck, even Manectric doesn't really work--Rayquaza's can be streamed fairly easily and you prize trade evenly--except that Rayquaza is faster and more consistent, so it wins that war.
RE: What to do about Mega Ray?
The other thing about headringer is the Delta Evolution trait. They can just put another down. They also have ninetales and altaria in almost every deck ive seen. So skyfield isn't really going anywhere and raichu wont OHKO. The only thing I can see doing is playing a quick deck that does not rely on EX cards as much.
The other thing about headringer is the Delta Evolution trait. They can just put another down. They also have ninetales and altaria in almost every deck ive seen. So skyfield isn't really going anywhere and raichu wont OHKO. The only thing I can see doing is playing a quick deck that does not rely on EX cards as much.
RE: What to do about Mega Ray?
Honestly, I think Manectric decks can easily beat Ray decks. Sure, the setup might be a bit slower, but what Ray gains Manectric gains... which is Mega Turbo. You can set up a Manectric T2 capable of OHKOing the Ray either in mega or in regular form with weakness. They rely a lot on their stadium in play and 7 pokemon to consistently OHKO Manectrics...which is a lot more needed then what manectric needs, which is 2 energy and a tool attached to the opposing pokemon.
I'm just going to refer you to this video to show you how to consistently get up a T1 Ray and why it will never happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFk8N282Kjo
Emerald break = 2015 T1 Night spear; it can happen, but don't count on it.
Blah said:
Honestly, I think Manectric decks can easily beat Ray decks. Sure, the setup might be a bit slower, but what Ray gains Manectric gains... which is Mega Turbo. You can set up a Manectric T2 capable of OHKOing the Ray either in mega or in regular form with weakness. They rely a lot on their stadium in play and 7 pokemon to consistently OHKO Manectrics...which is a lot more needed then what manectric needs, which is 2 energy and a tool attached to the opposing pokemon.
I'm just going to refer you to this video to show you how to consistently get up a T1 Ray and why it will never happen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFk8N282Kjo
Emerald break = 2015 T1 Night spear; it can happen, but don't count on it.
RE: What to do about Mega Ray?
Honestly, if Altaria uses its Delta Evolution AT, a trait I forgot to consider on my previous posts, to evolve from Swablu T1, it will take 2 hits, not 1, to KO M-Ray... And that would give enough time for M-Ray to either dominate, or force its foes to come equipped with Head Ringers, Hammers/Crawdaunts(PCL)(to remove any energies M-Ray may have attached), Shaymin-EXes of their own, Silent Labs(for after they bench all the Shaymin-EXes they can before they have to finish their turn in order to prevent the opponent from doing the same after it is placed), as well as Lysandres(to force out the Altarias for KOing by pokemon like Swampert PRC, Yveltal-EX, etc. for the sole purpose of eliminating the elimination of M-Ray's Lightning weakness), as well as other things that can hinder the M-Ray deck engine: an engine that not only cements the deck's place in a tier higher than Tier 1: Tier S, aka, the Uber/BDIF tier, but it takes away the fun of the game as well.
I'm not saying that M-Ray itself is a Uber card, but I believe that its deck would be easily beatable if not for Altaria... Altaria, when combined w/ M-Ray, forces other decks to disrupt and/or delay M-Ray until at least all Altaria in deck are beaten, and M-Ray's weakness is re-gained as a result, and before that occurs, who knows if M-Ray will be charged enough to KO your deck?
If I was TPCi, I would issue a rule change: If you use a colorless mega, you cannot have any cards in your deck that eliminate their weakness... I would state a "Colorless Mega-Weakness Rule" on all future cards that eliminate weaknesses on all or just the colorless pokemon, as well as colorless mega evolution cards... But as long as TPCi doesn't do such a thing, I'll break that non-imposed rule until it is imposed on the game for enforcement. After all, I don't want to fall behind other people who could do the same... I know such changes are not likely, but do you think that's acceptable?
Elbow said:
Honestly, if Altaria uses its Delta Evolution AT, a trait I forgot to consider on my previous posts, to evolve from Swablu T1, it will take 2 hits, not 1, to KO M-Ray... And that would give enough time for M-Ray to either dominate, or force its foes to come equipped with Head Ringers, Hammers/Crawdaunts(PCL)(to remove any energies M-Ray may have attached), Shaymin-EXes of their own, Silent Labs(for after they bench all the Shaymin-EXes they can before they have to finish their turn in order to prevent the opponent from doing the same after it is placed), as well as Lysandres(to force out the Altarias for KOing by pokemon like Swampert PRC, Yveltal-EX, etc. for the sole purpose of eliminating the elimination of M-Ray's Lightning weakness), as well as other things that can hinder the M-Ray deck engine: an engine that not only cements the deck's place in a tier higher than Tier 1: Tier S, aka, the Uber/BDIF tier, but it takes away the fun of the game as well.
I'm not saying that M-Ray itself is a Uber card, but I believe that its deck would be easily beatable if not for Altaria... Altaria, when combined w/ M-Ray, forces other decks to disrupt and/or delay M-Ray until at least all Altaria in deck are beaten, and M-Ray's weakness is re-gained as a result, and before that occurs, who knows if M-Ray will be charged enough to KO your deck?
If I was TPCi, I would issue a rule change: If you use a colorless mega, you cannot have any cards in your deck that eliminate their weakness... I would state a "Colorless Mega-Weakness Rule" on all future cards that eliminate weaknesses on all or just the colorless pokemon, as well as colorless mega evolution cards... But as long as TPCi doesn't do such a thing, I'll break that non-imposed rule until it is imposed on the game for enforcement. After all, I don't want to fall behind other people who could do the same... I know such changes are not likely, but do you think that's acceptable?
The problem is that there is no Mega rayquaza counter that is fast enough. Sure, you can potentially try to kill it with a T2 Mega Manectric (assuming they had their altaria pized or something like that) but the problem is that Rayquaza is just going to kill everything turn after turn by charging one mega after another. And I don't know if there's a deck that is able to 1HKO Mega Rayquazas every turn.
I personally think it depends on decklist.
If your opponent is playing straight Mega-Ray with little deviation, theoretically a Safeguarder could completely block them out.
However, with how many... deviations this deck is going to spawn? It's going to be rocky until the next set comes out.
If your opponent is playing straight Mega-Ray with little deviation, theoretically a Safeguarder could completely block them out.
However, with how many... deviations this deck is going to spawn? It's going to be rocky until the next set comes out.
I think at this stage it's too hard to say how it'll turn out. As stated, there's going to be several variations of this deck and yes, Mega Rayquaza EX can potentially do 240 damage per turn with just one basic, a Double Colourless and a full bench, but that's assuming a perfect scenario, and sometimes the cards just won't drop in your lap like that in practice.
Colourless 'Quaza EX looks like it will be very strong but I think it's far too early to call it overpowered.
Colourless 'Quaza EX looks like it will be very strong but I think it's far too early to call it overpowered.
A possible deck could be M Manectric with the Delta evolution Banatte. Banatte's first attack stops the evolution from the hand, so unless they are playing evosoda or wally it will slow them down quite a bit, alowing you to set up a couple M Manectric EX's. They wont be able to get the altaria out so they will still have weakness to Lightning.
Ironman131 said:
Yet, you can't attack if you go first on turn 1, and if M-Ray shows up w/ AT Altaria on turn 1, you are owned, as it's a pointless strategy to stop an evolution that already happened before you even get to evolve its pre-evo Shuppet.
Yes if they have every needed card in their hand. It would be difficult to to get every card they need into their hand on the first turn. They may have to decide if they want to set up the M Rayquaza EX first or the Altaria first. I posted a deck list in the deck garage with M Manectric EX/ Banette/ Ninetails.
What about Primal Groudon EX? He can hit 200 as skyfield exists. Problem is M Ray has fighting resistance, but with 2 strong energy, you can OHKO M Ray and crush stadium. I don't think M Ray deck can re-hit 240 after one M Ray down, requiring another skyfield, 3 energies, and full bench(which are crushed to 4 by gaia volcano). One problem will that P Groudon can't boost energy that fast, so preparing 2 P Groudons might be hard.
Rules like those would never help the game and would ruin it. If I worked for TPCGi, I would modify Exeggutor's "Shake it Off" to do 80 damage times the number of colorless Pokemon instead of only 20. Maybe a big basic to do 100x the number of colorless Pokemon your opponent has in play. This will help; direct hard counters. Maybe even a "Strike of the Champion" type attack for Colorless Pokemon.
Once Altaria hits the Bench, there's very little you can do to try to KO it with Raichu. Raichu is decent if your opponent just so happens to have a slow start, but frankly I'd prefer using a Safeguarder over Raichu to counter Ray. They're not playing Silent Lab (or at least they shouldn't be) because Sky Field is what they'll be slapping down first more than anything else. So. There's that. Other than Safeguarders, it's hard to get around this guy. He's going to shake up the meta quite a bit, and we'll see what happens in a few weeks' time.