Infernape Line, Pinsir, and New Illustration Rares Revealed from “Crimson Haze!”

Yes, Rain Dance has no reason to exist in any format and every version of the ability that has creative limitations is superior in its design.
In this format it's not so broken. Yes it's very good but mostly only good attacker for it is Chien-pao ex which discards energies. That gives opponent chance to get you out of Baxcaliburs what hurts it a lot. There is no very strong Water pokemon which keeps all energy when attacks
 
It's no Inferno Fandango, but it's definitely a better Muddy Maker, because this time you get to actually attach Fire AND Fighting, instead of just one of the two.

It does feel a bit bad though because it is yet again locked to a card that isnt Fighting type. Would have been a cool GLC engine.
 
Yes, Rain Dance has no reason to exist in any format and every version of the ability that has creative limitations is superior in its design.
In what format has Rain Dance been unbalanced in? Like genuine question, I can't think of a single time it has been, other than maybe XY purely because of Archie's Ace in the Hole.

I won't deny that Infernape's ability is more interesting. But I'm curious as to how you would define unbalanced.
 
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I kind of understand the point, but I disagree.
Getting to Stage 2 is already painful in the Pokémon TCG
That's not really an issue that should be addressed by making Stage 2s stronger. Giving them passive, uninteractive Abilities that just let you ignore one of the rules of the game doesn't really play on what should make Stage 2s exciting. What really holds back Stage 2s is every Basic ex / Stage 1 ex being a good enough beatstick.
In what format has Rain Dance been unbalanced in? Like genuine question, I can't think of a single time it has been, other than maybe XY purely because of Archie's Ace in the Hole.

I won't deny that Infernape's ability is more interesting. But I'm curious as to how you would define unbalanced.
Balance is almost always evaluated in reference to rules, not to format or context. Otherwise you can endlessly justify adding more and more broken cards (powercreep), because other broken cards already exist.
I say "almost" because I guess stuff like HP Amount or Damage Amount are contextual and it doesn't matter if a Pokemon with 40 HP does 10 damage, or a Pokemon with 400 HP does 100 damage EXCEPT there is Poison and Burn in the rules with set amount of damage, meaning that every Pokemon with 200+ HP is technically broken because they make these effects absolutely useless.
It doesn't mean that you can never make cards that break rules, but usually these cards have drawbacks that hearken back to the rules. Otherwise you completely override the design space provided by the rules and are forced to release similar cards over and over again, because the gameplay centers around these effects (and every deck that doesn't have these cards, or plays around these cards, immediately becomes Bad).
So yes, Rain Dance has always been unbalanced, because it allows you to override a core rule of the game with barely any downside. It just happened to be released with some other ridiculously strong cards at the same time in the recent years.
 
Balance is almost always evaluated in reference to rules, not to format or context. Otherwise you can endlessly justify adding more and more broken cards (powercreep), because other broken cards already exist.
i feel like this perspective defeats the purpose of conversations around game balance to begin with?

anything can be broken in a vacuum, especially something that SEEMS super powerful like rain dance. however, the reality is that mechanics are only as good as the support surrounding it. that's why you literally have to evaluate balance in reference to format and context.

even if rain dance is a very strong ability on paper, that doesn't guarantee you'll even see it at the highest level. we already know that despite how iconic base set blastoise was, decks like mewtwo and electabuzz + scyther + hitmonchan ended up on top in the early phases of ptcg's meta. even dark squall hydreigon, a recent example of a rain dance variant, was never even viable due to the lack of attackers that needed its ability.

giving stage 2 single-prize mons these "broken" abilities is a necessary part of the game, because there will always be skewed game balance in favor of big basics.
 
That's not really an issue that should be addressed by making Stage 2s stronger. Giving them passive, uninteractive Abilities that just let you ignore one of the rules of the game doesn't really play on what should make Stage 2s exciting. What really holds back Stage 2s is every Basic ex / Stage 1 ex being a good enough beatstick.

Balance is almost always evaluated in reference to rules, not to format or context. Otherwise you can endlessly justify adding more and more broken cards (powercreep), because other broken cards already exist.
I say "almost" because I guess stuff like HP Amount or Damage Amount are contextual and it doesn't matter if a Pokemon with 40 HP does 10 damage, or a Pokemon with 400 HP does 100 damage EXCEPT there is Poison and Burn in the rules with set amount of damage, meaning that every Pokemon with 200+ HP is technically broken because they make these effects absolutely useless.
It doesn't mean that you can never make cards that break rules, but usually these cards have drawbacks that hearken back to the rules. Otherwise you completely override the design space provided by the rules and are forced to release similar cards over and over again, because the gameplay centers around these effects (and every deck that doesn't have these cards, or plays around these cards, immediately becomes Bad).
So yes, Rain Dance has always been unbalanced, because it allows you to override a core rule of the game with barely any downside. It just happened to be released with some other ridiculously strong cards at the same time in the recent years.
Basics and stage 1s need to be good attackers otherwise every deck devolves into a stage 2 deck. Unlike digimon, evolution isn't the entire personality of the franchise, some pokemon evolve, some don't. It's entirely fair to want to make Basics and stage 1s viable decks to build around.

What really holds stage 2s back are really the rules of the game. Not being able to evolve the turn you're played and one energy per turn, are both major hurdle blocks to overcome. This is why rare candy is so integral to stage 2 strategies and why really only baxcalibur, gardevoir, and charizard are the only stage 2 cards seeing relevant play. All 3 stage 2s break the energy rule of the game that are holding back stage 2s. Pidgeot is an honorary mention too.
 
i feel like this perspective defeats the purpose of conversations around game balance to begin with?

anything can be broken in a vacuum, especially something that SEEMS super powerful like rain dance. however, the reality is that mechanics are only as good as the support surrounding it. that's why you literally have to evaluate balance in reference to format and context.
That's because players usually evaluate "balance" in context of what is a "good deck" or a "bad deck". That's fine - they are not supposed to think in design terms and health of the overall game. But thinking that a deck/card is broken because of a format it is in creates a few paradoxes - first, you can have a card that's absolutely bonkers broken in one format (ADP) and then it's just kind of okay after a few sets releases (also ADP). This makes it impossible to define what a "broken" card is beyond "it has a lot of meta% and I don't like it" and makes it so a card, despite having the exact same text printed on it, can shift from broken to unbroken depending on context. Second, you can have a deck that's made out of absolutely completely fair cards, in a fair format, and be an absolutely dominant Tier 0 force (very rarely happens, but it can) just because it flows extremely well. To define this as "broken" makes it, again, completely subjective.
Even the example you've provided showcases how subjective that is - Haymaker was considered an unbeatable powerhouse but, going back to Base Set with the knowledge we have now, players have constructed stall decks that just demolish Haymaker on the spot. So, where is the "broken"? Did it change with time, despite the format being literally the same for decades?

In design terms, "broken" game elements close up design spaces, invalidate mechanics, make players misinterpret mechanics, etc. The main culprit of Base Set was not Hitmonchan, it was Energy Removal - a card that allows you to invalidate a core mechanic for the price of one card. ADP was always stupidly broken as a combination of the awful triple-prizer mechanic and an attack that invalidated the existence of single-prize Pokemon. Rain Dance, at least from the formats I know it from, always had the misfortune of being overshadowed by something really dumb - whether it's Magnezone in SM, Base Set Blastoise in a Base Set format, or Baxcalibur in the hell of a format we have now. But that doesn't change the evaluation - the game is better when it doesn't exist.
 
Hygonosuke art on the regular and an illustration rare? What a time to be a Pinsir fan! (I'm not, but it's still cool)
 
Balance is almost always evaluated in reference to rules, not to format or context. Otherwise you can endlessly justify adding more and more broken cards (powercreep), because other broken cards already exist.
I say "almost" because I guess stuff like HP Amount or Damage Amount are contextual and it doesn't matter if a Pokemon with 40 HP does 10 damage, or a Pokemon with 400 HP does 100 damage EXCEPT there is Poison and Burn in the rules with set amount of damage, meaning that every Pokemon with 200+ HP is technically broken because they make these effects absolutely useless.
It doesn't mean that you can never make cards that break rules, but usually these cards have drawbacks that hearken back to the rules. Otherwise you completely override the design space provided by the rules and are forced to release similar cards over and over again, because the gameplay centers around these effects (and every deck that doesn't have these cards, or plays around these cards, immediately becomes Bad).
So yes, Rain Dance has always been unbalanced, because it allows you to override a core rule of the game with barely any downside. It just happened to be released with some other ridiculously strong cards at the same time in the recent years.
In the sea of shallow and uninformed takes on trading card game design I read every day on different sites, this is a great post. I don't agree 100% with everything you said in this thread, but either way thanks for laying out your points in a competent and convincing way.
 
I was so disappointed with Infernape V (why did Pansear get a VSTAR instead!?!?!?) and the other stage 2 Infernape was meh, so I'm glad it gets another shot even if it's not amazing at the given moment... at least it isn't complete filler and has some sort of utility.
 
Yea we usually call those fully evolved. NFE is anything with extra non-mega evolutions to come
Ok that makes sense, it just feels weird (to me) to call something that’s never evolved “fully evolved.” But from an analytical perspective it does make sense to do so.
 
Infernape might be good, but a Stage 2? I guess the format is slowing down more and more, but a TM Devo timed just right and you no longer have anything going for you
 
That's because players usually evaluate "balance" in context of what is a "good deck" or a "bad deck". That's fine - they are not supposed to think in design terms and health of the overall game. But thinking that a deck/card is broken because of a format it is in creates a few paradoxes - first, you can have a card that's absolutely bonkers broken in one format (ADP) and then it's just kind of okay after a few sets releases (also ADP). This makes it impossible to define what a "broken" card is beyond "it has a lot of meta% and I don't like it" and makes it so a card, despite having the exact same text printed on it, can shift from broken to unbroken depending on context. Second, you can have a deck that's made out of absolutely completely fair cards, in a fair format, and be an absolutely dominant Tier 0 force (very rarely happens, but it can) just because it flows extremely well. To define this as "broken" makes it, again, completely subjective.
Even the example you've provided showcases how subjective that is - Haymaker was considered an unbeatable powerhouse but, going back to Base Set with the knowledge we have now, players have constructed stall decks that just demolish Haymaker on the spot. So, where is the "broken"? Did it change with time, despite the format being literally the same for decades?

In design terms, "broken" game elements close up design spaces, invalidate mechanics, make players misinterpret mechanics, etc. The main culprit of Base Set was not Hitmonchan, it was Energy Removal - a card that allows you to invalidate a core mechanic for the price of one card. ADP was always stupidly broken as a combination of the awful triple-prizer mechanic and an attack that invalidated the existence of single-prize Pokemon. Rain Dance, at least from the formats I know it from, always had the misfortune of being overshadowed by something really dumb - whether it's Magnezone in SM, Base Set Blastoise in a Base Set format, or Baxcalibur in the hell of a format we have now. But that doesn't change the evaluation - the game is better when it doesn't exist.
"broken" game elements does not necessarily close up design spaces. Most, if not all "broken" mechanic is type specific so if you want to make a card that might be abusable by say baxcalibur, you just don't design that card as a water type.

Only "broken" mechanic that was recently released that actually limits design space was lugia-archeops because special energies can generally function in every type of deck. As lugia was a colorless pokemon, it could still be paired with any type specific special energies which actually limits how strong any future special energies that would be released. This is why lugia was a t0 deck in the format it was released because the previous special energies did not account for the strength of lugia-archeops. You don't see any gardevoir, baxcalibur, or even charizard, being a t0 deck, despite breaking a core mechanic of the game.

If the "rain dance" mechanic was always overshadowed by something really dumb, then the rain dance mechanic isn't as broken as you might think.
 
"broken" game elements does not necessarily close up design spaces. Most, if not all "broken" mechanic is type specific so if you want to make a card that might be abusable by say baxcalibur, you just don't design that card as a water type.
You've literally just described what a closed design space is. If there are cards or mechanics that would normally be fine, but the existence of Rain Dance/Baxcalibur makes them potentially abusable, that is a textbook example of a closed design space.
Also, there is no need for a card that "abuses" Rain Dance to exist. The existence of Rain Dance is abusive for exactly the reason above.
This is why lugia was a t0 deck in the format it was released because the previous special energies did not account for the strength of lugia-archeops.
You're saying this as though it's the fault of the Special Energy, not this card combination. I'll give you a simpler and even clearer example - ADP has basically punished every single-prize Pokemon in the format. That is not the fault of single-prize Pokemon that they didn't adapt to ADP, it's the fault of ADP for having an attack with an effect that never should have been printed.
If the "rain dance" mechanic was always overshadowed by something really dumb, then the rain dance mechanic isn't as broken as you might think.
More than one thing can be broken at the same time and at different levels, I don't think that's such a hard idea to understand.
 
You've literally just described what a closed design space is. If there are cards or mechanics that would normally be fine, but the existence of Rain Dance/Baxcalibur makes them potentially abusable, that is a textbook example of a closed design space.
Also, there is no need for a card that "abuses" Rain Dance to exist. The existence of Rain Dance is abusive for exactly the reason above.

You're saying this as though it's the fault of the Special Energy, not this card combination. I'll give you a simpler and even clearer example - ADP has basically punished every single-prize Pokemon in the format. That is not the fault of single-prize Pokemon that they didn't adapt to ADP, it's the fault of ADP for having an attack with an effect that never should have been printed.

More than one thing can be broken at the same time and at different levels, I don't think that's such a hard idea to understand.
It's not necessarily closed design space because you can still design that same pokemon, just of a different type. Remember, pokemon is about the POKEMON. Baxcalibur can accelerate unlimited energy yet they still design pokemon that does increased damage the more energy it has (for example armarouge ex). That's because those pokemon are not water type.

ADP may have been a mistake but it did not limit design space in anyway. It might invalidate single prizers but that didn't mean they couldn't design certain single prizers at all. Lugia-archeops does limit how strong a special energy type can be. You could design a super strong water specific special energy but that will be abused by lugia, a deck archetype that it isn't necesarily intended for.

Your image of the rain dance mechanic is that it should never be in the game at all because of how problematic it is a "broken" mechanic. However, history has shown that this mechanic isn't problematic and unhealthy as you think it is.
 
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