Expanded Decidueye/Toad

[JadeGemTM]

Pokemon#17

~3 Seismitoad EX FFI
~4 Rowlet SM
~4 Dartrix SM
~3 Decidueye GX SM
~2 Shaymin EX ROS
~1 Oranguru SM

Trainers#36

~3 Juniper
~2 N
~1 Lysandre
~1 Xerosic
~1 AZ
~1 Karen

~4 Ultra Ball
~4 VS Seeker
~3 Hypnotoxic Laser
~2 Battle Compressor
~2 Revitalizer
~1 Computer Search
~1 Tool Scrapper
~1 Special Charge
~2 Muscle Band
~2 Float Stone

~3 Forest of Giant Plants
~2 Virbank City Gym

Energy#7

~4 DCE
~3 Rainbow Energy

So, what do you think? Improvements?

 

[TuxedoBlack]

Pokemon#20

~2 Seismitoad EX FFI
~4 Rowlet SM
~4 Dartrix SM
~4 Decidueye GX SM
~2 Shaymin EX ROS
~1 Jirachi EX Plasma Blast
~2 Exeggcute Plasma Freeze
~1 Trevenant EX FFI

Trainers#31

~3 Sycamore
~2 N
~1 Lysandre
~1 AZ

~4 Ultra Ball
~4 VS Seeker
~3 Battle Compressor
~3 Devolution Spray
~1 Revitalizer
~1 Scoop Up Cyclone
~1 Startling Megaphone
~1 Special Charge
~3 Muscle Band
~1 Float Stone

~3 Forest of Giant Plants

Energy#9

~4 DCE
~5 Grass

So, what do you think? Improvements?
Edit: with further testing I decided to add 1 Trevenant EX.

A few thoughts for your consideration:

• First of all, you've listed 32 Trainers, not 31.
• IMO, Seismitoad EX should be the main attacker while Decidueye GX supports by dropping damage counters onto opponent's Pokémon. I'd suggest running 4 'Toads.
• The Jirachi EX and the Trevenant EX seem to be more distracting than helpul. Tauros GX, IMO, would be a more useful tech without primary energy type requirements.
• Why no Level Ball to help get your Rowlet and Dartrix into play faster?
• Whenever I've run 'Toad decks, I was very relunctant not to run a few W energy in the event I wanted to use the Grenade Hammer attack.
• Why run Battle Compressor? Not critical, IMO.
• Similarly, why run Devolution Spray? These are not needed either since its Decidueye GX's Ability that drops the damage counters each turn, not when it comes into play (funny, I thought the same thing early on before I actually got the cards).

Suggested deck changes:

-1 Jirachi EX
-1 Trevenant EX
-2 Exeggcute
-3 Battle Compressor
-3 Devo Spray
-1 Scoop Up Cyclone - Computer Search or Dowsing Machine would be more helpful, IMO
-3 Muscle Band - I prefer Fighting Fury Belt for the extra HP
-1 Ultra Ball
-2 Grass - to rebalance energy

+2 Seismitoad EX - increases your chances of a 'Toad start
+1 Tauros GX
+1 Computer Search / Dowsing Machine
+1 Delinquent - to counter opponent's Stadium, as well as opponent's hand
+3 Level Ball
+2 Prof. Kukui - supplemental card-draw support and damage output boost
+1 Lysandre - too important for your only one to be prized
+1 Olympia - healing and switching card
+1 Brock's Grit / Super Rod
+3 Water​

I hope you find these comments helpful.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I'm loving this deck archtype so maybe I can help.
I agree that the Scoop Up package is a distraction when you should just be focusing on getting out the Decidueyes rather than reusing them. Use at least 2 Revitalizer along with your Battle Compressors to help you get your evolution cards. Running 4 Forest of Giant Plants is optimal as well, you want this card. Colress should be part of your supporter suite because of the deck's high amount of bench warmers. I also agree with cutting Jirachi because you want your bench to be full of Decidueyes, not things that do nothing after they come into play. Here's my list:
Mons:
4 Rowlet (consise mon suite. Nothing you don't need)
4 Dartrix
4 Decidueye GX
3 Seismitoad EX
2 Shaymin EX

Trainers
1 AZ (Battle Compressor lets you find Supporters easily hence the techy list)
1 Karen (I find this ore useful than Brock/Rods. It does the job and beats Night March)
1 Colress
1 Lysandre
1 N
1 Professor Kukui
1 Xerosic (You're screwed if Garbodor get's going. I like this useful guy as a result)
3 Professor Sycamore

3 Battle Compressor
1 Computer Search
2 Revitalizor (You can use this with Compressor as an engine to find your birds. I will be testing more agressive numbers of these)
4 Trainer's Mail
4 Ultra Ball
4 VS Seeker
4 Forest of Giant Plants
3 Float Stone (might go down to 2)
2 Muscle Band

4 DCE
2 Grass Energy (yes, low energies. I've never really wanted to attack with anything but Toad and the quickest way to do so is to attach a DCE. The grass energies are there in case I absolutely need to use Decidueye as an attacker or for Hollow Hunt)

I hope I've inspired you

 

[Fayld]

A few thoughts for your consideration:

• First of all, you've listed 32 Trainers, not 31.
• IMO, Seismitoad EX should be the main attacker while Decidueye GX supports by dropping damage counters onto opponent's Pokémon. I'd suggest running 4 'Toads.
• The Jirachi EX and the Trevenant EX seem to be more distracting than helpul. Tauros GX, IMO, would be a more useful tech without primary energy type requirements.
• Why no Level Ball to help get your Rowlet and Dartrix into play faster?
• Whenever I've run 'Toad decks, I was very relunctant not to run a few W energy in the event I wanted to use the Grenade Hammer attack.
• Why run Battle Compressor? Not critical, IMO.
• Similarly, why run Devolution Spray? These are not needed either since its Decidueye GX's Ability that drops the damage counters each turn, not when it comes into play (funny, I thought the same thing early on before I actually got the cards).

Suggested deck changes:

-1 Jirachi EX
-1 Trevenant EX
-2 Exeggcute
-3 Battle Compressor
-3 Devo Spray
-1 Scoop Up Cyclone - Computer Search or Dowsing Machine would be more helpful, IMO
-3 Muscle Band - I prefer Fighting Fury Belt for the extra HP
-1 Ultra Ball
-2 Grass - to rebalance energy

+2 Seismitoad EX - increases your chances of a 'Toad start
+1 Tauros GX
+1 Computer Search / Dowsing Machine
+1 Delinquent - to counter opponent's Stadium, as well as opponent's hand
+3 Level Ball
+2 Prof. Kukui - supplemental card-draw support and damage output boost
+1 Lysandre - too important for your only one to be prized
+1 Olympia - healing and switching card
+1 Brock's Grit / Super Rod
+3 Water​

I hope you find these comments helpful.

I agree with you, but have a couple of points I would make. I think +1 Oranguru has been absolutely huge for my version of this list (granted, my version is also running 3 FoGP / 2 Virbank / 4 Hypnotoxic). However, I think the biggest thing I would change is the +3 water. I would make that +3 rainbow. Decidueye frequently has been my main attacker in a lot of match ups due to weakness / general size. While that 90 point shot doesn't do much on its own, 90 + 60 (which is very typical) hurts. A lot. That's also the main reason I run the Virbanks + Hypnotoxics. 90 + 60 + 30 is a knock out on many things, but I am trying to keep within the context of this list. So, I would argue that 3+ rainbow > 3+ water in order to give flexibility to which pokemon you attack with. Along those lines, I would probably add 1 special charge as well. Honestly, I think Kukui is overrated in this list and would drop him for +1 Special Charge and +1 Oranguru.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

I agree with you, but have a couple of points I would make. I think +1 Oranguru has been absolutely huge for my version of this list (granted, my version is also running 3 FoGP / 2 Virbank / 4 Hypnotoxic). However, I think the biggest thing I would change is the +3 water. I would make that +3 rainbow. Decidueye frequently has been my main attacker in a lot of match ups due to weakness / general size. While that 90 point shot doesn't do much on its own, 90 + 60 (which is very typical) hurts. A lot. That's also the main reason I run the Virbanks + Hypnotoxics. 90 + 60 + 30 is a knock out on many things, but I am trying to keep within the context of this list. So, I would argue that 3+ rainbow > 3+ water in order to give flexibility to which pokemon you attack with. Along those lines, I would probably add 1 special charge as well. Honestly, I think Kukui is overrated in this list and would drop him for +1 Special Charge and +1 Oranguru.

Now that's interesting stuff. Do you have a list? I honestly thought Grenade Hammer was a very inefficient attack since Toad decks typically run no energy acceleration and would like to use a single DCE to attack with. I love Virbank though and any deck that makes good use of it is a friend of mine

 

[Fayld]

Now that's interesting stuff. Do you have a list? I honestly thought Grenade Hammer was a very inefficient attack since Toad decks typically run no energy acceleration and would like to use a single DCE to attack with. I love Virbank though and any deck that makes good use of it is a friend of mine

I will pull up my list when I get home and PM it to you. I don't want to derail this thread

 

[JadeGemTM]

I will pull up my list when I get home and PM it to you. I don't want to derail this thread

If you don't mind I would also love to see your list. I really like the idea of Laser and Virbank in this deck

 

[Fayld]

Alright, since the OP asked to see it, here is my list. There are a couple of cards I am still toying with just to see what I think (Lillie being the main one). Feel free to take or leave whatever you like out of it. Not going to hurt my feelings. I like the way it plays, but it definitely does not have the same "rush out the owl asap" feel of some of the other decks. That said, I tend to win the mirror due to the additional damage output + pressure on the primary even though I am usually 1 turn slower on the 3rd Decidueye. As stated though, the goal of this deck is less focused on the owls as a whole than other similar decks. I also choose to run grass energy rather than rainbow contrary to my earlier post I have run it with Rainbow as well and go back and forth with the decision. Finally, I have toyed with removing the toads altogether and running it with Tauros GX instead. Different approach, but harder pressure early too.

Pokémon - 16
4 Rowlet SUM 9
4 Dartrix SUM 10
3 Seismitoad-EX FFI 20
3 Decidueye-GX SUM 12
1 Shaymin-EX ROS 77
1 Oranguru PR-SM SM13

Trainer Cards - 37
4 Professor Sycamore
2 N
1 Xerosic
1 Lysandre
1 Lillie
1 Karen

4 VS Seeker
4 Ultra Ball
4 Hypnotoxic Laser
3 Battle Compressor Team Flare Gear
2 Revitalizer
1 Special Charge

2 Float Stone
2 Fighting Fury Belt

3 Forest of Giant Plants
2 Virbank City Gym

Energy - 7
4 Double Colorless Energy
3 Grass Energy

 

[JadeGemTM]

I have edited the deck and have been playing with it. Love the lasers

 

[michael rozsa]

my decidueye toad list
4 4 4 decidueye line
3 toad
2 shaymin

2 sycamore
1 n
1 lysandre
1 ghetsis
1 xerosic
1 colress
1 az

4 vs seeker
4 ultra ball
4 super scoop up
3 trainers mail
2 level ball
2 battle compressor
2 float stone
1 revitilizer
1 super rod
1 scoop up cyclone

4 forest

4 dce
3 grass

 

[Fayld]

my decidueye toad list
4 4 4 decidueye line
3 toad
2 shaymin

2 sycamore
1 n
1 lysandre
1 ghetsis
1 xerosic
1 colress
1 az

4 vs seeker
4 ultra ball
4 super scoop up
3 trainers mail
2 level ball
2 battle compressor
2 float stone
1 revitilizer
1 super rod
1 scoop up cyclone

4 forest

4 dce
3 grass

How does this do when you are item locked? It seems super short on draw supporters. Turn 1 Trevenant gives most decks issues, but I don't see how you compete with it at all.

 

[michael rozsa]

How does this do when you are item locked? It seems super short on draw supporters. Turn 1 Trevenant gives most decks issues, but I don't see how you compete with it at all.

Turn 1 toad, minimum 2 decidueye on bench, battle comp vs seeker ghetsis

Im going to be paying attention to expanded in the next few weeks and see how much trev is in play, especially with the amount of dark hype

 

[Expert_Occultist]

Turn 1 toad, minimum 2 decidueye on bench, battle comp vs seeker ghetsis

Im going to be paying attention to expanded in the next few weeks and see how much trev is in play, especially with the amount of dark hype

And if you don't go first? Trev very easily can get a lock turn 1 with Wally. This is another criticism of bounce builds. They get locked way easier. I'm use Ghetsis as part of my more aggressive Revitalizer/Compressor package though and it's been pretty sweet. Aside from the potential turn 1 hand beating, Ghetsis can function as mid-game draw since Toad ends up stranding items in your opponent's hand. This also shuffles them back which can create dead draws latter on while your opponent is locked.

Edit: The OP also needs Lasers in the list with Virbank

 

[TuxedoBlack]

All: 3 things to consider:

1. What is your "backup" plan should your opponent "wall" you with a Safeguard-type Pokémon that can be healed repeatedly? Do you need a non-EX attacker?
2. If your opponent does manage to get Garbotoxin activated, do you think Seismitoad EX's Quaking Punch alone will be sufficient to win games?
3. The next big tournament will be Expanded format; so, Trevenant (Forest Curse) will, most likely, be played. What then are your tactic(s) should you be Item-locked T1? Also, despite the Dark decks popularity, I still may run my Trevenant deck at the upcoming Expanded tournaments; hopefully, my techs against D decks will help me overcome those obstacles.

 

[Expert_Occultist]

All: 3 things to consider:

1. What is your "backup" plan should your opponent "wall" you with a Safeguard-type Pokémon that can be healed repeatedly? Do you need a non-EX attacker?
2. If your opponent does manage to get Garbotoxin activated, do you think Seismitoad EX's Quaking Punch alone will be sufficient to win games?
3. The next big tournament will be Expanded format; so, Trevenant (Forest Curse) will, most likely, be played. What then are your tactic(s) should you be Item-locked T1? Also, despite the Dark decks popularity, I still may run my Trevenant deck at the upcoming Expanded tournaments; hopefully, my techs against D decks will help me overcome those obstacles.

1. Decidueye is a GX pokemon not EX. Most Safegaurd mons have lowish HP (and a weakness to grass to boot) so taking them out isn't a problem.
2. I run Xerosic. It's usually pretty good. Muscle Banded Razor Leaf OHKOs as well with Lysander. (man, Decidueye is a cool secondary attacker)
3. Trev is a tough matchup for sure and requires further testing. It usually comes down to a coinflip although they don't like being item locked either.

Bonus round: I'm more concerned about Archeops than anything else

 

[TuxedoBlack]

1. Decidueye is a GX pokemon not EX. Most Safegaurd mons have lowish HP (and a weakness to grass to boot) so taking them out isn't a problem.
2. I run Xerosic. It's usually pretty good. Muscle Banded Razor Leaf OHKOs as well with Lysander. (man, Decidueye is a cool secondary attacker)
3. Trev is a tough matchup for sure and requires further testing. It usually comes down to a coinflip although they don't like being item locked either.

Bonus round: I'm more concerned about Archeops than anything else

Thanks for your feedback. One of my Poké pals reminded (again... lol) that GX Pokémon are not affected by the Safeguard Ability.
Xerosic will indeed be helpful to players playing against Garbodor and Garbodor players can also run Pokémon Ranger to counter 'Toad's Quaking Punch and can also have reattach Tool(s).

In testing the Trevenant match-up (I ran Trevenant), only a few cards needed to be tweaked to make the match-up more favorable. However, a lot depends on who goes first, as you noted. And, of course unfortunately, my Toad-Eye opponent used Lysandre at key times to counter my Item-lock.

Lastly, Archeops will be a huge tech played, IMO; so, Hex Maniac will see more play too to counter its Ancient Power Ability so you can setup. Really lastly - a Volcanion match-up will also be very tough, especially since, most likely, you can not 1HKO a Volcanion EX - which can just target your Owls and Shaymin EXs... Thoughts?

 

[Fayld]

Thanks for your feedback. One of my Poké pals reminded (again... lol) that GX Pokémon are not affected by the Safeguard Ability.
Xerosic will indeed be helpful to players playing against Garbodor and Garbodor players can also run Pokémon Ranger to counter 'Toad's Quaking Punch and can also have reattach Tool(s).

In testing the Trevenant match-up (I ran Trevenant), only a few cards needed to be tweaked to make the match-up more favorable. However, a lot depends on who goes first, as you noted. And, of course unfortunately, my Toad-Eye opponent used Lysandre at key times to counter my Item-lock.

Lastly, Archeops will be a huge tech played, IMO; so, Hex Maniac will see more play too to counter its Ancient Power Ability so you can setup. Really lastly - a Volcanion match-up will also be very tough, especially since, most likely, you can not 1HKO a Volcanion EX - which can just target your Owls and Shaymin EXs... Thoughts?

The Volcanion match up is one of the reasons I chose to run Virbank + Lasers because you are absolutely correct regarding the damage output on toad being insufficient. That is a very rough match up no matter how you slice it for this deck, but with the additional poison damage and the 50/50 shot they are asleep + inability to use most switching techniques due to item lock + 80 damage (quaking punch + fury belt + weakness) + 40-60 for the owls + 10-30 for the poison. It adds up quick on Volcanion. The most important aspect is the item lock though. Without it, there is a very good chance they are grasping for that Lysandre and it just never shows up.

Honestly, I am more worried about T1 Trevenant / T1 Archeops than anything else. I need to put a Hex into my list, but haven't gotten around to it yet. I have also considered a Giratina promo, but honestly I think it is a waste in this deck.

 

[TuxedoBlack]

I plan to build my version of this deck this weekend and test it against some of the expected "top tier" decks, including:

• Dark-Tina
• Darkrai EX (Turbo)
• Lurantis GX-Eeveelutions
• Lurantis GX-Vileplume
• MMewtwo EX
• Raikou-Eels
• Ray-Eels
• Seismitoad-Decidueye
• Trevenant
• Vespiquen-Flareon
• Water Box
• Yveltal-Maxie

Have your already tested against any of these aforementioned decks? Thoughts? Thanks.

 

[Fayld]

I plan to build my version of this deck this weekend and test it against some of the expected "top tier" decks, including:

• Dark-Tina
• Darkrai EX (Turbo)
• Lurantis GX-Eeveelutions
• Lurantis GX-Vileplume
• MMewtwo EX
• Raikou-Eels
• Ray-Eels
• Seismitoad-Decidueye
• Trevenant
• Vespiquen-Flareon
• Water Box
• Yveltal-Maxie

Have your already tested against any of these aforementioned decks? Thoughts? Thanks.

I have tested my variety against Dark-Tina, Yveltal Maxie, Turbo Darkrai, Mirror, Trevenant, Water Box. I have also gone up against other top decks that you left off (Sableye / Garbodor, Toad / Bats, Greninja, M Manectric). T1 Maxie is rough. T1 Trevenant is rough. If neither pulls T1 or I go first, neither is all that bad. M Manectric was a one time deal and I dead drew, so nothing really to say about it beyond "he got set up T2 and overwhelmed me after that". Nothing else that I played against has been rough. (Correction, nothing else in that particular list has been rough. Volcanion is rough and it is a terrible match up, but we covered that above and I think everyone knows it LOL! There are other decks that have been rough, but you are unlikely to see those variants in a tournament setting).

As for Ray Eels, I consider myself an expert on that deck and have played against this match up several times. My variant on Ray Eels is roughly 45/55 which is pretty even with what it is against Toad / Bats. My variant on Ray / Eels vs. Toad / Bats / Virbank style, is roughly 30/70. The poison + sleep is really painful + disruptive and has always left a horrible taste in my mouth anytime I have played that particular variant of Toad / Bats. I realize that is not the popular variety of Toad / Bats and it isn't as consistent as the scoop variant, but straight up I absolutely HATE playing against that variation.

I don't know if that helps at all and I don't have the same statistical break down that 21times does on my matches, but my experience has been that the poison + sleep turns matches from what would be even with the normal owls approach to favorable due to the ability to push the damage higher / disrupt my opponent's ability to attack in response.