Darkrai EX vs. Zoroark

iisnumber12

iisnumber12

Team UN (White)
Member
Use this thread to discuss Darkrai and Zoroark. I know that many people think Straight Darkrai is going to be a new top deck, but I also know many disagree with this. Post here to discuss.

I personally think that Darkrai isn't good and that Zoroark will be the new Tier 1 deck. Feel free to disagree.
 
I also really don't see how come people have hyped it so much that it is now 80$ on t&t.
It can be a really good late-game attacker and because of it's ability I see it being put in a lot of deck as a 1-off.
But something like straight Darkrai? You will eventualy run out of dark patch and junk arm, and when you do you'll be in a lot of trouble unless you got so good a start that you allready control the board.
It gets OHKOed by Terrakion and 2HKOed by the rest of the metagame at it's energy acceleration can't compet with ZekEels.
If I get one at celebration I'll make sure to trade it away as fast as possible, because I really think the price will drop after a few weeks.
 
Which Zoroark are we talking about here? Zoroark Black and White is going to be a great card with the release of Dark Explorers, while the Zoroark from Dark Explorers is total trash. Given Zoroark Black and White doesn't function as its own deck, it can still be a strong main attacker. Zoroark Black and White counters Mewtwo, and with Dark Claw + Special Dark Energy, Zoroark gets the OHKO on Zekrom EX, Zekrom, Tornadus, Thundurus, Reshiram EX, Chandelure, and probably a couple other things that I'm not thinking of. Zoroark for Dark Explorers constantly needs a full bench of Dark type Pokémon, and it doesn't hit for anywhere near enough damage to OHKO EXs, even with the Dark support. Having a bench full of dark Pokémon is a waste of space, and your opponent will out run you in the prize trade, and out-speed you early in the game. Straight Darkrai isn't very good either, although it is much better than Zoroark DE. Even with Dark Patch, it is astonishingly slow; not to mention you auto-lose to anything carrying an effectively placed Terrakion tech. Darkrai is a good attacker, but in no way can it be the only attacker in a deck. Right now, I am seeing Absol Prime, Darkrai EX and Zoroark B&W as the top dogs of dark decks. None of them function on their own, but they are by far the best dark type attackers in the format.
 
Stop having a sissy fight with alexmf2. Your both wrong! Alex's argument on the deck makes me feel like he's playing it wrong, and your responses make me feel like you haven't even tested it. The deck is good for its versatility and ability to control the board when played by a great player. This format isn't like ND where you can autopilot some deck like CMT and do well, every move counts and the skill cap on these decks are high.
 
First of all, without context, that quote is incredibly hard to follow. I don't even know what you're talking about half the time.

Anyway, I believe that both cards are good in their own way. Zoroark is an obviously more powerful attacker. Cinccino had decent success at a couple Regionals alongside Kingdra, but it has 10 less HP than Zoroark and does 20-40 less damage. This makes Zoroark significantly more playable than Cinccino, an already decent card, since that 20-40 more damage turns a lot of 2HKOs into OHKOs. The other nice but often ignored aspect of Zoroark is its 2nd attack. It's basically an Outrage on steroids, capable of hitting for up to 200 damage with Darkness Claw. That puts any EX on the field at a huge risk and will make your opponent think twice about dropping them. The argument can be made that Zoroark is always OHKO'd, but it's really not. Thundurus, Tornadus, Darkrai-EX, and Regigigas-EX all hit for less than 100 damage and they're some of the most prominent attackers in the game.

Darkrai-EX is quite different. It hits for the same amount of damage that Zoroark does, but some of the damage is forced to go on the bench. Furthermore, it requires 1-2 more energy to use its attack although it doesn't rely on a full bench. It's an EX, but it's also a basic with much more HP than Zoroark. Put quite simply, Darkrai's attack is fairly lackluster compared to Zoroark's. If you opponent is taking pretty consistent OHKOs-2HKOs, you become very reliant on Dark Patch, which is a trainer that you have a limited amount of and have to draw in to. Zoroark is all in all a better attacker.

What makes Darkrai playable is the Ability. I'm not really supposed to expand on this, but you guys will see come Battle Roads. :p
 
The quote was from a different conversation that would be much more appropriate for this thread than the one it was on. I plan to continue discussing here.
 
Celebi23 said:
First of all, without context, that quote is incredibly hard to follow. I don't even know what you're talking about half the time.
Click to expand...

Lololol agreed.

Anyways, I kind of like the new Zoroark. It's a nice 100 damage drop for a DCE (when you've got your Dark Pokemon out of course) and if you do this T2, you can start Catchering vital Pokemon like Eelektrik and shut your opponent down. The HP is a drawback, though. Too high to be Level Balled and just too low to be OHKO'd by Zekrom EX and 2HKO'd by Terrakion. This deck is definitely helped out by the Ascension Zorua, which allows you to get that Brutal Bash going very quickly.

Darkrai EX is overhyped. The attack is just eh. Sure, it's decent sniping damage, but 90 to the Defending boosts an Outrage for Kyurem and Zekrom and ends up hurting you more in the long run. It is the magic number to OHKO'ing an Eel though.
 
I know I said this during that discussion, but a deck with Darkrai as the main attacker (or as I've heard it called, Epicrai) is fantastic. It's dishing out 110 per turn with a Dark Claw and 120 with a special dark also. The lack of Dark Patches? As far as I've seen, it's normally not a problem, as you only need to set up three Darkrai max, and with a consistent deck it's not really that hard. In my opinion, Epicrai MUST be played with Smeargle, as it needs the extra supporters to keep those Dark patches coming. I remember playing a game against someone (I think it was Tea/Matryshoka/however you spell his name) with Epicrai and T2 he got two Darkrai up and running with Dark Claws and proceeded to sweep my field. That just goes to show how powerful and fast it can be, despite the possibility of running out of resources.
 
Yeah, take the quote off of here. No one will understand it. If you don't want the conversation to continue on the ZekEels thread, we can just continue it over PM.
 
if you read esa's latest blog entry, darkrai ex should be paired with other pokemon like zoroark or tornadus ex in order to exploit dark patch. darkrai ex is supposed to complement dark pokemon and any pokemon with dark energy attached to it by giving these pokemons with dark energy free retreat.
 
Serperior said:
The HP is a drawback, though. Too high to be Level Balled and just too low to be OHKO'd by Zekrom EX and 2HKO'd by Terrakion.
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huh?

terrakion ohkos zoroark
 
Vulpix Yolk said:
Which Zoroark are we talking about here? Zoroark Black and White is going to be a great card with the release of Dark Explorers, while the Zoroark from Dark Explorers is total trash. Given Zoroark Black and White doesn't function as its own deck, it can still be a strong main attacker. Zoroark Black and White counters Mewtwo, and with Dark Claw + Special Dark Energy, Zoroark gets the OHKO on Zekrom EX, Zekrom, Tornadus, Thundurus, Reshiram EX, Chandelure, and probably a couple other things that I'm not thinking of. Zoroark for Dark Explorers constantly needs a full bench of Dark type Pokémon, and it doesn't hit for anywhere near enough damage to OHKO EXs, even with the Dark support. Having a bench full of dark Pokémon is a waste of space, and your opponent will out run you in the prize trade, and out-speed you early in the game. Straight Darkrai isn't very good either, although it is much better than Zoroark DE. Even with Dark Patch, it is astonishingly slow; not to mention you auto-lose to anything carrying an effectively placed Terrakion tech. Darkrai is a good attacker, but in no way can it be the only attacker in a deck. Right now, I am seeing Absol Prime, Darkrai EX and Zoroark B&W as the top dogs of dark decks. None of them function on their own, but they are by far the best dark type attackers in the format.
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Dear god I hope you're kidding.

Zoroark BW is no where near as good as Zoroark DE for one. BW can not do any real damage unless it's up against something that does enough damage to knock itself out, which really isn't a lot of Pokemon.

Zorua's Ascension is what makes the deck so good, as a T1 Ascension guarantees a T2 80-120 depending on how much you can get out in the two turns you have. With Dark Patch, you are able to keep the attacks going, even if you get stranded with a field with no energy. Sneasel's free retreat (or the free retreat provided by Darkrai) really help here as well.

Plus, I haven't even mentioned Weavile. No other deck in the format hits for straight power, and disrupts a little bit on the side. And, Faint Attack can be used at times to get KOs on Tynamos, Babies, etc. I've used it. But a Night Spear from Darkrai is usually a better option, and not much harder to pull off.

A full bench of Dark Type Pokemon is so easy to get with Dual Ball, Collector, etc. And hitting for 120 a turn, plus more with Sp. Dark and Dark Claw is insane. It 2HKOs every EX, even with only 4 benched darks. I've yet to play a deck that really keeps even prize trade with Zoroark.dec, except a Troll deck that I still handily beat.

Darkrai EX is a great card either by itself, or as a tech in Zoroark decks. With Smeargle and Sableye DE, getting 3 energy by T2 is simple, provided your opponent has at least 1 draw supporter in hand. If they don't, you are at an advantage anyways because they won't set up.

Anyways, if you're not kidding, you'll be eating your words in approximately 4 weeks.
 
The only time I can see Zoroark BW being superior to Zoroark DE is when you're against a Zekrom-EX or a Reshiram-EX.
 
Futachimaru said:
The only time I can see Zoroark BW being superior to Zoroark DE is when you're against a Zekrom-EX or a Reshiram-EX.
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You can also ascention to zoroark BW if you have a terrible hand and use nasty plot for a suporter...
 
That's really the only good use for it realistically. Otherwise, it's usually not as good as the DE Zoroark for attacking.

And even so, I've never had a completely garbage hand with my deck. 11-12 draw supporters + 2 Random Receiver works great.
 
I usually tune out any argument as soon as someone brings up Weavile UD, but you make some valid points. Given I won't play either, I still feel Zoroark Black and White is much more viable, simply because it poses a serious threat to most EXs. With Zoroark DE, you also have less room for techs. If you want to play something like Tornadus or Mewtwo EX, you are going to be cutting your damage output for a decent amount of the game.

Another thing is that Zoroark DE relies on swarming, while Zoroark Black and White functions best when it is scarcely used and well placed. Both Zoroarks will get out swarmed in the long run, it is going to be hard to compete when your opponent is one shoting you with a new basic every time you promote a Zoroark. Zoroark BW will get knocked out right after you use it, but it will be winning the prize traded in the process. Two well placed Black & White Zoroarks are going to take more prizes than a swarm of Zoroarks from Dark Explorers. No I am not joking, looks like I will be eating my words.
 
If I were to run a dark deck. I'd go with a 3-1 Zoroark DE/BW split. THe Zoroark BW is still such a great card in terms of versatility and "clutch" factor that you can just foul play when needed. Straight Darkrai is just scary to use especially if Terrakion decides to show up
 
Zoroark BW doesn't pose a threat to EXs, at least not anymore than Zoroark DE...

The ONLY EXs that Zoroark BW can rationally one shot are Zekrom EX and Reshiram EX. But guess what? No body plays them. Any decent Zeels list doesn't use Zekrom EX because honestly, it's a terrible card. Reshiboar/phlosion... is just a bad version of Zekeels.

Zekrom, Raikou, and Tornadus EX all give Zoroark BW at least a shot of discarding Energy. Reshiram grants recoil. And the rest do less damage than Zoroark DE!

Now, Darkrai EX/Tornadus EX is probably the better deck anyways, but if going the Zoroark/Darkrai route, definitely go Zoroark DE. Amazing speed and amazing damage, with honestly no bad side effects.
 
Yeah, Reshiram EX doesn't see much play, but Zekrom EX, Mewtwo EX, Raikou EX and Tornadus EX will/do. Foul Playing a hard-hitting attack to put a huge dent in an EX is fantastic. Two Prizes. With Raikou EX, you're not discarding Lightning Energy. Psydrive makes you drop the DCE, but 120 on Mewtwo is definitely worth it.

Saying this, there is no reason to not tech in one or two Zoroark BW in a Dark deck. It definitely poses a threat to EXs, and Zekrom BW. Zoroark DE deals solid damage like no other once you swarm your Bench with Darks, but that goes without saying that you should be mainly attacking with this guy.
 
As for Darkrai EX. I don't think his attack is anything that good. The only things he can OHKO consistently are Chandelure NV, and the Genies. It's gonna be really hard to get out a Night Spear T2 doing enough to KO anything other then them. The 30 damage to the bench is decent against Zekeels, (does anyone else hate that name? How about Zektrik?) Babies and CMT to an extent (2HKO's Celebi). On the other hand, it's ability is great. As long as you give the darkness energies out early enough, free retreat is always awesome.

I like either Zoroark much better as attackers. Zoroark DE's first attack does a nice 140-160 by T2 pretty easily, which can OHKO any non EX. And a plus power will fix the Mewtwo EX problem, while his second attack is nice when fighting Tornadus, Thundarus or Mewtwo EX (it's gonna be pretty rare to get OHKO by Mewtwo EX). Zoroark BW on the other hand get a HUGE step up in playability with dark claw. with dark claw, he's fantastic against Zekrom EX, Reshiram EX, the Genies and Raikou EX (snipe's eels without the discard).

So, the bottom line is, use Zoroark DE against any non EX you come across and use Zoroark BW against EX's. And just don't use Darkrai EX's attack at all.
 
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