Discussion Counter Energy/Catcher

[Ecko9i6]

With counter catcher and counter energy being released in Crimson Invasion, I'm curious as to which decks everyone will consider using these cards in.

Counter catcher seems like it will most likely see play in most deck, but counter energy seems like it will be specific to decks that don't rely on GX or EX attackers.

I don't see Counter catcher replacing Guzma, but being a 2 of in some decks to help out when you're behind on prizes. Perhaps I am wrong, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this.

I'm thinking of running counter energy in a deck with Creep Show Gengar to allow for 1HKOs. I'm going to run 3-4 shining mew in order to attach counter energies to benched gastly. If mew gets knocked out (or if they guzma my gastly and knock it out) I will be ready to go next turn. I plan on running Po Town and a 2-2 line of Espeon GX in order to use Divide in case I play against decks like Volcanion that do not rely on evolutions. I'm also going to throw in max elixir to get energy on mew, attach an energy to an eevee to evolve and then use legendary guidance to attach a DCE to Espeon GX and a counter energy to Gastly.

What are some ideas you guys have for Counter energy?

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Both cards should be looked at on a case by case bases. My deck has a Mallow engine, which make Counter Energy good for me because of how awkward my Gardevoir-GX match is so I can grab both Counter Energy and Cobalion with Mallow and get a kill. Not every deck can do this though so Counter Energy is going to be used in decks looking to tech against a specific matchup and as of now, there aren't any decks that rely on non-GX attackers where Counter Energy will be needed since most can use a DCE anyway.

Counter Energy should be looked at as a fringe choice for any deck looking to fit a specific non-GX tech (Shining Lugia, Cobalion, Virizion) to help in their bad matches but I don't really see it being more than a single copy in any deck since right now, you have to use GX attackers. Counter Catcher is different because it is really matchup dependent and won't really win you games a Guzma wouldn't. The game is too fast right now for such a card and in most cases, you can't play it so if you have it in your hand, you either discard it or can't use it. I do like the card, maybe as a single copy since I play Mallow and Puzzle but most other decks can't do this.

The best way to run Counter Catcher is to run a deck you expect to be behind in the Prize trade so any Garb deck vs a EX/GX deck would trigger the opponent's Counter Catcher but this is really the only way I can see it being used. Only time will tell though. They could make more viable Pokemon that aren't EX/GX.

 

[Connor Ritter]

I'm interested in running Counter Energy in a Spiritomb (STS) spread deck since it waits to take 6 prizes. Counter Energy will help fuel Damage Play's [D][C] cost or just act as another DCE for Tapu Koko, Bronzong, and/or Honchkrow.

 

[Otaku]

Hmm...

I expect Counter Catcher will be used in almost everything, though with deck space so tight, I could easily be mistaken. I also expect Counter Energy to be run in most things, as decks that don't seem like a good fit right now end up adjusting because of it. Not unlike when Scramble Energy was a thing.

 

[Ecko9i6]

Counter Energy is going to be used in decks looking to tech against a specific matchup and as of now, there aren't any decks that rely on non-GX attackers where Counter Energy will be needed since most can use a DCE anyway.

This is very true and I believe it will also only really work in decks where a non GX or EX attacker has a cost of some type of energy and a colorless. That way, if counter catcher stops working, it will still count as a colorless energy.

The game is too fast right now for such a card and in most cases, you can't play it so if you have it in your hand, you either discard it or can't use it. I do like the card, maybe as a single copy since I play Mallow and Puzzle but most other decks can't do this.

Yeah, I think most of the time Counter Catcher may end up being a dead card in your hand. I feel like it will possibly end up being a 1-2 of in decks considering that it will not replace Guzma, but supplement it.

The best way to run Counter Catcher is to run a deck you expect to be behind in the Prize trade so any Garb deck vs a EX/GX deck would trigger the opponent's Counter Catcher but this is really the only way I can see it being used. Only time will tell though. They could make more viable Pokemon that aren't EX/GX.

This is probably going to be the case, but I can see it being used in almost any deck in cases where you get a slow start. Although everyone uses Guzma, being able to only switch out your opponents active with one of their bench can really turn things around. Plus, counter catcher is an item card so you don't have to worry about using your supporter for the turn in order to get a knock out.

 

[Ecko9i6]

I'm interested in running Counter Energy in a Spiritomb (STS) spread deck since it waits to take 6 prizes. Counter Energy will help fuel Damage Play's [D][C] cost or just act as another DCE for Tapu Koko, Bronzong, and/or Honchkrow.

Oooooo that sounds like fun. Throw in Necrozma to spread massive damage and then move it around with Spiritomb. I like it! I imagine you would use Tapu Koko promo to add even more counters for maximum damage right?

 

[Ecko9i6]

Hmm...

I expect Counter Catcher will be used in almost everything, though with deck space so tight, I could easily be mistaken. I also expect Counter Energy to be run in most things, as decks that don't seem like a good fit right now end up adjusting because of it. Not unlike when Scramble Energy was a thing.

Yeah, my initial thoughts are that Counter Catcher will be a 1-2 of in most decks, but @crystal_pidgeot makes a good point. It would work best in decks where you are already anticipating on falling behind in prizes. I think decks like Gardevoir and Volcanion would not want to use it due to the aggressiveness of the deck.

I'll be curious to see how people use Counter Energy. The example that @Connor Ritter gave utilizes counter catcher pretty well. I feel like including Shining mew in most decks will help make it more viable. The only issue I see is that perhaps people will begin using enhanced hammer again to negate the effects of the card. It will all depend on whether or not players find success with it. Only time will tell.

 

[Ecko9i6]

Come to think of it, you could run Counter Energy with Mimikyu. Your opponents knocks out one of your mons, switch in to Mimikyu, attach counter energy, PROFIT

 

[F4H_Jay]

Counter catcher in Ninja. BDIF!

 

[Otaku]

The only issue I see is that perhaps people will begin using enhanced hammer again to negate the effects of the card.

1) Maybe Kartana-GX instead except...

2) Discarding an Energy from a Pokémon you're about to KO doesn't mean much.

Put it together and I expect discarding Counter Energy will only matter if your opponent has it on something that somehow is not his or her most valuable target and didn't manage to even up or even pull ahead in the Prize count.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

Counter catcher in Ninja. BDIF!

I think i dont need to tell you how i feel about it.

You guys sure know about this pokémon "Arceus XY-Promo"? This first attack is awesome right? ;D
Ninja Boy acts like the "Type Switch" attack. You use Ninja Boy to switch your active pokémon type. Except that you do not loose your attack for it.

This mechanic allows Ninja Box to reach damage numbers up to at least 200hp if you have a CB attached. All you have to do is swap a card around in the deck. Include a pokémon that hits high enough and that hits for weakness. You have the potential to OHKO any basic pokémon in the expanded format right now with relative ease (requirement being 1 Ninja Boy,1 DCE, 1 Rainbow or Prism Energy and 1 CB) except for a few exceptions (Otaku give me some help if i miss something!):

- Since they have no weakness, Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, Tapu Bulu and Tapu Fini (and soon the new Solgaleo-Gx) cannot be taken down with this mechanic. You could still take them down on the second turn with Ninja Boy but it is more clunky (Start second, Shining Mew with a Rainbow Energy attached accelerates onto Drampa, survives and retreats on the second turn for exemple)
- Aegislash-Ex (and the soon to come Xurkitree-Gx) cannot be taken down since their ability make them immune. They could theorically be taken down by accelerating energy with Shining Mew on the first turn onto the new Mewtwo-Gx since its Gx attack pierces immunity but it is too expensive to achieve. The best answer is still Latias-Ex in my opinion.
- Pokémon weak to Grass or Fire require 2 turns only if you accelerate enery with Shining Mew on the first turn, else it takes 3 turn.

If we look at evolved pokémon now it becomes more difficult to OHKO them since some have up to 250hp without considering bonus/reduction. Trying to reach numbers that high makes it harder. You can do it with the help of Shining Mew but it gets less reliant. In such cases including 1 or 2 Counter Energy could be interesting. Fighting, Fire, Psychic and Grass attackers are interesting. Here are the best basic pokémon choices that could benefit from Counter Energy in Ninja Box:

- Giratina XY Promo: The attack does 220dmg on weakness and discards one of your opponents card. Attach 1 Counter Energy and 1 DCE and you have a awesome pokémon that can OHKO any pokémon weak to Psychic in the format with a CB. It is a very good pokemon already to include in the Ninja Box deck since it counters Greninja Break and Trevenant Break. It is also weak to Darkness not Psychic which makes it even better.

- Entei XY AOR: This pokémon hits for 260dmg on weakness (380 with 2 CB attached). Entei can take out any pokémon in the format on the second turn. He can hit for 190 dmg on any pokémon with 2 CB attached thanks to his Ancient Trait (magic number).

- Zygarde XY Promo: This pokémon can hit for 240dmg on weakness taking OHKO on anything in the format.

- Shining Genesect: This pokémon can hit for 220dmg with a Counter Energy and a Rainbow or Prism. It can OHKO all pokémon in format except for Primarina Gx, Primal Kyogre and Primal Groudon. The sweet bonus is that the ability Energy Reload works with Prism, Raibow or Counter Energy. You could use the ability to preserve energy on a pokémon likely to be KO or to load him further to OHKO any pokémon on the second turn.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

Shining Mew seems to go hand into hand with Counter Energy. It can be accelerated by Shining Mew and Shining Mew only has 30 hp.

Here is a scenario that could happen against Ninja Box deck:

- Both player have 6 prize cards
- Shining Mew becomes active with Prism Energy attached.
- He attacks and attaches 1 Counter Energy on Giratina XY Promo and 1 counter Energy onto Shining Genesect.

Let's say you are playing Golispod-Gx, who would you attack?

1. Shining Mew?
2. Shining Genesect?
3. Giratina XY Promo?

If the Ninja player as included Entei XY AOR in his deck, whatever you do, if he has DCE and Ninja Boy in his hand and Entei is not prized you loose 2 prize the next turn.

1. If you take out Shining Mew, Shining Genesect can Energy reload the Counter Energy from Giratina onto himself and Ninja Boy into Entei for the OHKO. He does not even need a DCE in his hand.
2. If you take out Shining Genesect, a DCE onto Giratina and Ninja Boy into Entei for OHKO.
3. Other options are you let your opponent accelerate once more with Mew or Ninja Boy into Glaceon-Ex for the stall.

If you have 2 enhanced hammer, you probably deal with the threat but if the energy has been attached to Electrike XY Promo, unless you drop 2 Kartana-Gx on your bench there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Of the 2, I expect counter energy to make much more a splash. I've been testing out counter catcher right now, and it's been pretty underwhelming. Either I draw it early game where it's a dead card, or I discard it with Sycamore and it's a dead card, or I draw it when I can use it but it's not that beneficial and I could just as easily Guzma instead. The problem being that with only 1-2 copies you cannot search it out when you need it reliably, unlike say Guzma. I suppose you could run Skyla, but seems a bit clunky and also unreliable in the long run. With deck space being at such a premium, I can think of easily 5+ cards I would rather devote deckspace to instead of counter catcher, as they either provide universal consistency (more draw supporters etc) or are more likely to be active cards throughout the game (town map, more stretcher, more blower, more stadiums, tech supporters etc).

Counter energy seems pretty great in a non-ex/gx toolbox deck, and I fully expect it to do well at some large tournaments coming up.

 

[Connor Ritter]

Oooooo that sounds like fun. Throw in Necrozma to spread massive damage and then move it around with Spiritomb. I like it! I imagine you would use Tapu Koko promo to add even more counters for maximum damage right?

Yeah use Tapu Koko, Weavile, Bronzong, and/or Necrozma to spread damage around then take knock outs with either Spiritomb, Tapu Lele Promo, or Espeon EX.

Shining Mew seems to go hand into hand with Counter Energy. It can be accelerated by Shining Mew and Shining Mew only has 30 hp.

Oh Mew will be perfect with counter energy and a spread deck! Great method to accelerate/recover special energy along with special charge, and it's typing matches the Tapu Lele Promo (when it eventually comes out) for better synergy than Spiritomb.

 

[Ecko9i6]

Counter catcher in Ninja. BDIF!

Lol you would never use it!

 

[Ecko9i6]

Of the 2, I expect counter energy to make much more a splash. I've been testing out counter catcher right now, and it's been pretty underwhelming.

Yeah I get what you mean. I think it's going to be a matter of testing it out extensively with multiple decks, but it seems like it will shine in decks that expect to fall behind in prizes (i.e. Greninja and Rainbow Road)

With deck space being at such a premium, I can think of easily 5+ cards I would rather devote deckspace to instead of counter catcher, as they either provide universal consistency (more draw supporters etc) or are more likely to be active cards throughout the game (town map, more stretcher, more blower, more stadiums, tech supporters etc).

I agree, I think most decks are already packed with cards that are essential to their decks. Even if counter catcher turns out to be amazing, what do you remove for it? Guzma is pretty good so I can't imagine this will replace it at all. Perhaps the people that run 4 guzmas will consider doing a 2-2 split of Guzma and Counter Catcher, but that doesn't seem likely.

Counter energy seems pretty great in a non-ex/gx toolbox deck, and I fully expect it to do well at some large tournaments coming up.

I am super excited for Counter Energy! My dream of having a Creep Show Gengar deck that runs smoothly will finally come true! (Perhaps). Shining mew will help out a lot of decks that are going to use counter energy. I've ordered a playset of Shining mew just to be safe

 

[Ecko9i6]

1) Maybe Kartana-GX instead except...

2) Discarding an Energy from a Pokémon you're about to KO doesn't mean much.

Put it together and I expect discarding Counter Energy will only matter if your opponent has it on something that somehow is not his or her most valuable target and didn't manage to even up or even pull ahead in the Prize count.

Actually... I think you're absolutely right. Why worry about discarding an energy on something you're about to knock out anyway lol. Either way, I think I'll be playing 1 special charge in any deck that has counter energy. I feel like it is too valuable not to be able to reuse.

 

[Laurier_Ex]

Lol you would never use it!

That would obviously be very dumb as Ninja Box is BDIF. ;D

Yeah I get what you mean. I think it's going to be a matter of testing it out extensively with multiple decks, but it seems like it will shine in decks that expect to fall behind in prizes (i.e. Greninja and Rainbow Road)

Every game you are loosing, you are usually behind . It can be good in every deck as long as you do not play 4 copies of it.

 

[Ecko9i6]

That would obviously be very dumb as Ninja Box is BDIF. ;D



Every game you are loosing, you are usually behind . It can be good in every deck as long as you do not play 4 copies of it.

This is correct, but counter energy only works on Non EX or GX Pokemon anyways so it wouldn't really matter in most decks. If you have a deck that runs non EX or GX as a tech, they typically use DCE for their attacks so counter energy is unnecessary.

Edit: This is irrelevant, I thought you were talking about Counter Energy lol. I see now that you were referring to Counter Catcher.

 

[Otaku]

Every game you are loosing, you are usually behind .

This statement is true, but I wish to stress that "usually" is not only far from "universally", and may just barely represent the majority of the time.

It isn't even truly universal that whoever takes his or her last Prize is the winner. You've got alternate win conditions. You've got "draws". You've even got the rare (but not unheard of) instance where both players achieve a win condition at the same time but one or both players achieve multiple win conditions at once, and the player with the most wins (instead of it being a draw).

So why nitpick here? I've been complaining for years that using Prize count for card effects, or at least "come-from-behind" card effects intended to act as a balancing agent, are a really bad idea. The majority of the time sure, whoever has taken more Prizes is "winning", but it is the majority by a small margin. Learning to manipulate the Prize count to take advantage of such effects may not be a fundamental skill, but neither is it too far advanced. A lot of N usage falls under this heading. The last time we had a combination of cards similar to what we are about to get, you'd have some crazy control decks that would force the opposing players to take two to four Prizes ASAP (I think it was even possible first turn), then use Rocket's Admin. (N, except you can draw less than your remaining Prizes if you really wish) so that you were down to a two or four card hand. If you tried to build anything up, you had to deal with Pow! Hand Extention (Counter Catcher if you could use it like Lysandre or move an Energy off the Active) and Scramble Energy (Counter Energy if it provided three instead of two).

This is correct, but counter energy only works on Non EX or GX Pokemon anyways so it wouldn't really matter in most decks.

Most existing decks. You ever heard of the carrot and the stick? It is a reference to getting a stubborn pack animal to do what you want through the combination of offering it a reward for obedience and a penalty for disobedience. Counter Energy is the carrot; adjust your deck a bit and get a huge bonus. In a sense, it is also a little bit of the stick; if you insist on focusing your deck on just Pokémon-EX/GX, your opponent's will have access to this bonus and you won't. The real stick, however,

There is increasing anti-Pokémon-EX/GX effects as a whole. Standard no longer has Muscle Band, but it has Choice Band. Safeguard is no longer all that safe, but similar, newer Abilities are popping up and they protect against both Pokémon-EX and Pokémon-GX.

The other thing to remember is that a few decks aren't going to use Counter Energy simply because they were already blessed with a single-Prize attacker that gets just as much out of Double Colorless Energy, like Gardevoir-GX decks running Gallade. Well, Counter Energy might allow some similar tricks in decks that didn't have a Pokémon-GX alternative because the non-GX option couldn't run on DCE.