Cardfight!! Vaguard Group Discussion

Well Neon Messiah is supposed to bridge the gap between Season 3 and Season 4 in the Anime series which will hopefully shed more light as to why Aichi Sendou formed the Quatre Knights after he saved the world from Void and Link Joker. Judging from the movie poster, Aichi isn't dressed up like Captain Harlock like he is in Season 4 where he's telling Kai and his "mates" to give up on him when it was Kai's fault that Aichi's where he's at right now yet people still think Aichi and Kai have some kind of Yaoi relationship with one another when they don't.

Kai went from running Royal Paladin because Blaster Blade told him to only to have Blaster Blade taken away by Kourin without getting reversed by her despite running Link Joker. Then Kai and his "mates" train over at Leon's island to get stronger with Kai eventually going back to running Kagero leaving Misaki with no development whatsoever as Bushiroad refuses to have her switch back to Oracle Think Tank. Kai apparently isn't allowed to cardfight against Aichi again due to some deal they made at the end of Season 3 when Kai was still reversed.

As for the TCG, I have a feeling that the Promotional Pack for Neon Messiah will be region locked just like with Fighter's Collection 2013 and 2014 which also contained new Legion support for Oracle Think Tank. Remember back in the day how long it took for Konami to release promos like Cyber-Stein and Blue-Eyes Ultimate Dragon for Yu-Gi-Oh! outside Japan? Bushiroad will most likely post the entire Neon Messiah movie on their YouTube channel for Vanguard instead of giving it a theatrical release in the United States.

By the way, has anyone here downloaded the Cardfight Area app for playing Vanguard Online yet?

http://cardfight.ru/cf-area
 
You do realize that Fighter's Collection 2014 has been confirmed for a US release at the end of this year, right? The 2013 collection only had three new cards and one of them (Wisdom Keeper, Metis) has already been released in an English promo pack. Very few cards actually stay exclusive to Japan, and I doubt the cards in the movie extra booster will either. Anyway, I have used CF Area before. The program works pretty well and it's a neat way to play around with new things that we won't get in the US for a while, but it still has its bugs and most of the player base is pretty bad to be honest.
 
I didn't know until now, it's too bad we won't be getting Bleoberis to help make Grand Ezel more consistent in GP over Gancelot let alone Tsukuyomi getting reprinted as an SP in Fighter's Collection 2014 which will probably raise her price even more. Bushiroad needs to release a set in Cardfight!! Vanguard that contains nothing but Sentinel units including Quintet Walls for every clan although it will become out of print just like with BT07 recently which raised the price of Great Nature quite a bit with Leo-pald Reverse and Chatnoir being the 2nd most expensive decks in the game next to Tsukuyomi.

A Sentinel exclusive expansion in Vanguard would still be a smart move on Bushiroad's part since it would help dramatically decrease the cost of running 4 Perfect Guards in every deck due to being mandatory staples. They also need to get up to speed by making sure that every clan in the game has Legion support since it seems like they're phasing out Limit Break despite releasing a new Grade 1 skill that enables clans to use Limit Break at 3 or less damage even though players nowadays are running 0 Heals so that they don't run the risk of sacking into a Heal at 4 when they want to get Limit Break off.

Another thing that Bushiroad could be doing to help improve Cardfight!! Vanguard is by releasing Trial Decks for clans that are unpopular in the Anime/Manga series being Tachikaze, Megacolony, Granblue, Bermuda Triangle, Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Great Nature, Neo Nectar, Murakumo, Nubatama, Spike Brothers, and Pale Moon. I'd also like to see Bushiroad go back to giving Oracle Think Tank more support other than Mystical Magus and the new Legion support for CEO Amaterasu and Battle Sisters.

We all know that the main principles to win in Cardfight!! Vanguard are Pressure, Advantage, and Consistency but what about Defense as well? The game itself needs more units whose sole purpose is to defend your Vanguard rather than just adding more unnecessary pressure to an already pressured opponent. Grade 2 Interceptors that Intercept for 10k instead of 5k or even units that work like Starry Skies Liberator, Guinevere for every clan that functions off of Sub-clan names like "Blau", "Ezel", "Amon", "Revenger", and "Amaterasu".

Much like how Guinevere does with the name "Liberator" would be a great asset to the game itself which could get restricted to being Sentinel units much like with Perfect Guards and Quintet Walls which I feel would hurt deck consistency overall. Of course this doesn't have to be restricted to just Sub-clan names for a powerful defense since it can also be tied to a clan's mechanics as well like these card ideas for example:

Pale Moon / Dark Irregulars

[AUTO]:[Counter Blast (1)] When this unit is placed on (GC), If you have a <<Pale Moon or Dark Irregulars>> vanguard, you may pay the cost. If you do, this unit gets [Shield]+3000 for each card in your soul.

Granblue / Musketeers (Neo Nectar)

[AUTO]:[Counter Blast (1)] When this unit is placed on (GC), If you have a <<Granblue or Neo Nectar>> vanguard, you may pay the cost. If you do, this unit gets [Shield]+2000 for each Grade 1 or higher unit in your Drop Zone.

Another thing that Bushiroad should consider adding to Cardfight!! Vanguard would be defensive units that punish your opponent from restanding their Vanguard not in the same way Megacolony and Link Joker work but more so during an attack like this card idea for example:

[AUTO]:[Counter Blast (1)] When this unit is placed on (GC), If you have a <<insert Clan name here>> vanguard, you may pay the cost. If you do, choose one of your opponent's attacking units, and that unit cannot [Stand] until your opponent's next stand phase.
 
Firstly, Bushi got rid of clan restrictions with Legion as far as I know, so they'd just be in those clans. The last card seems a little overpowered if their vanguard is attacking, so I would word it to work with rear-guards only. The Musketeer one doesn't feel right, I'd think it'd be Shield +5000 for each rear-guard with the same name as another rear-guard. I must admit I'm "forum head" over on CFA, and I may well be an in-game moderator when that's implemented o3o"
 
I can't help but wonder If Nouvelle Vague was the reason behind Bushiroad creating the Legion mechanic in Vanguard. They tried to correct this error by banning Conroe as Starting Vanguard yet even with Red Pulse Dracokid replacing it, Vague still did very well in Japan when competing against Seekers.

Of all the clans that have gotten the best Legion support so far I'd say it'd have to be Royal Paladin, Gold Paladin, Shadow Paladin, Narukami, Nova Grappler, and Dimension Police. Aqua Force, Link Joker, Neo Nectar, and Genesis didn't live up to the hype apparently. No Legion support for Daiyusha and Soulless makes me sad.
 
Card Slinger J said:
I didn't know until now, it's too bad we won't be getting Bleoberis to help make Grand Ezel more consistent in GP over Gancelot let alone Tsukuyomi getting reprinted as an SP in Fighter's Collection 2014 which will probably raise her price even more. Bushiroad needs to release a set in Cardfight!! Vanguard that contains nothing but Sentinel units including Quintet Walls for every clan although it will become out of print just like with BT07 recently which raised the price of Great Nature quite a bit with Leo-pald Reverse and Chatnoir being the 2nd most expensive decks in the game next to Tsukuyomi.

Tsukuyomi is not expensive and hasn't been expensive or even popular for a very long time. You can see on ebay she only goes for about 6$ RRR and 30$ SP and even that's pushing it. Leopald Reverse and Chatnoir? They're 2$ each. Oh, and BT07 is still in stock in plenty of places.

A Sentinel exclusive expansion in Vanguard would still be a smart move on Bushiroad's part since it would help dramatically decrease the cost of running 4 Perfect Guards in every deck due to being mandatory staples. They also need to get up to speed by making sure that every clan in the game has Legion support since it seems like they're phasing out Limit Break despite releasing a new Grade 1 skill that enables clans to use Limit Break at 3 or less damage even though players nowadays are running 0 Heals so that they don't run the risk of sacking into a Heal at 4 when they want to get Limit Break off.

A booster of sentinel units would be silly, they're frequently reprinted for most clans and in set 16 and on they're not even clan restricted. There hasn't been a price problem like with Halo Shield Mark in a long time. All that booster would do is devalue the cards in general and slowly make bushiroad lose money. Every clan is quite obviously getting legion units, just like every clan got limit break units. They're just not going to do it all at once. I think they've actually been getting it done reasonably fast, all things considered. The grade 1s lowering limit breaks to 3 damage only serve as proof that bushiroad is NOT phasing out limit breaks, and on that note running 0 heals out of fear of missing limit break is downright stupid. Several limit breaks activate before the vanguard attacks, not after, and therefore are not shut off by drive checking a heal trigger. Even if you damage check it on your 4th damage and you're at 3 damage, you're left at an advantage regardless of limit break by being at lower damage. If you want to use your limit break early that badly, then run some of those self-damaging units that have been around since set 7, or those new grade 1s you mentioned yourself.

Another thing that Bushiroad could be doing to help improve Cardfight!! Vanguard is by releasing Trial Decks for clans that are unpopular in the Anime/Manga series being Tachikaze, Megacolony, Granblue, Bermuda Triangle, Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Great Nature, Neo Nectar, Murakumo, Nubatama, Spike Brothers, and Pale Moon. I'd also like to see Bushiroad go back to giving Oracle Think Tank more support other than Mystical Magus and the new Legion support for CEO Amaterasu and Battle Sisters.

Not every clan can constantly get trial decks. It'd be nice, but it would mean releasing way too many. You also have to keep in mind they have to keep them somewhat modeled after the anime for the sake of marketing. Despite this, we have still gotten a pretty generous diversity of trial decks already. Dimension Police and Genesis trial decks certainly weren't necessary to promote the anime but Bushiroad made them anyway. Clans are still getting support through main sets and extra boosters, and I don't think any clan is currently in need of severe support. Sets can only be so big, so yes, some clans will have more support than others at certain times, and some have legions while others don't. That still isn't a reason to print 15 new trial decks. OTT got two promo legions and an extra booster not that long ago, and they're still far more supported than, say, Megacolony.

We all know that the main principles to win in Cardfight!! Vanguard are Pressure, Advantage, and Consistency but what about Defense as well? The game itself needs more units whose sole purpose is to defend your Vanguard rather than just adding more unnecessary pressure to an already pressured opponent. Grade 2 Interceptors that Intercept for 10k instead of 5k or even units that work like Starry Skies Liberator, Guinevere for every clan that functions off of Sub-clan names like "Blau", "Ezel", "Amon", "Revenger", and "Amaterasu".

Try playing Murakumo. I recommend Shirayuki, Mandala Lord, and Kasumi Rogue. Hell, try Megacolony, OTT, Shadow Paladin (mostly witches) and Link Joker too. A lot of clans can be played defensively if you just know how to play.

Much like how Guinevere does with the name "Liberator" would be a great asset to the game itself which could get restricted to being Sentinel units much like with Perfect Guards and Quintet Walls which I feel would hurt deck consistency overall. Of course this doesn't have to be restricted to just Sub-clan names for a powerful defense since it can also be tied to a clan's mechanics as well like these card ideas for example:

Pale Moon / Dark Irregulars

[AUTO]:[Counter Blast (1)] When this unit is placed on (GC), If you have a <<Pale Moon or Dark Irregulars>> vanguard, you may pay the cost. If you do, this unit gets [Shield]+3000 for each card in your soul.

Granblue / Musketeers (Neo Nectar)

[AUTO]:[Counter Blast (1)] When this unit is placed on (GC), If you have a <<Granblue or Neo Nectar>> vanguard, you may pay the cost. If you do, this unit gets [Shield]+2000 for each Grade 1 or higher unit in your Drop Zone.

Another thing that Bushiroad should consider adding to Cardfight!! Vanguard would be defensive units that punish your opponent from restanding their Vanguard not in the same way Megacolony and Link Joker work but more so during an attack like this card idea for example:

[AUTO]:[Counter Blast (1)] When this unit is placed on (GC), If you have a <<insert Clan name here>> vanguard, you may pay the cost. If you do, choose one of your opponent's attacking units, and that unit cannot [Stand] until your opponent's next stand phase.

Those cards would all be broken, unnecessary, or both. Not to mention downright silly.

Card Slinger J said:
I can't help but wonder If Nouvelle Vague was the reason behind Bushiroad creating the Legion mechanic in Vanguard. They tried to correct this error by banning Conroe as Starting Vanguard yet even with Red Pulse Dracokid replacing it, Vague still did very well in Japan when competing against Seekers.

Of all the clans that have gotten the best Legion support so far I'd say it'd have to be Royal Paladin, Gold Paladin, Shadow Paladin, Narukami, Nova Grappler, and Dimension Police. Aqua Force, Link Joker, Neo Nectar, and Genesis didn't live up to the hype apparently. No Legion support for Daiyusha and Soulless makes me sad.

No, Bushiroad created legion to create a new mechanic and keep the game growing and interesting. It's not to counter Nouvelle. If anything, it just counters Link Joker, which also gets Legion support anyway. Aqua Force, Link Joker and Genesis actually have some of the best legions if you ask me. The great players that I know agree. CEO Yggdrasil's legion skill is literally a better version of Sin Buster's in every sense. I'm sorry if you're upset that OTT didn't get a third legion (without even any main set support) and that Daiyusha didn't get one when that unit already has two limit break crossrides and an array of Daiyusha-specific support. But you're just being greedy.

In general, just please do your research before spouting nonsense about things like card prices. Also think about what you're saying in general before you say it. It's ok to ask questions or share ideas but you're kind of making grand theories and going really far with them without any facts to back you up. You're asking for Bushiroad to change everything in the game just to please your tastes and make everything cheaper, when it's already a lot cheaper than you realize, apparently. Don't complain about something without first making an attempt to research it and understand it. We can't really assume things about cards we haven't even had the chance to play with. Reports from Japan are one thing, but American players seem to play very differently and have different opinions on cards.
 
Meaty said:
Tsukuyomi is not expensive and hasn't been expensive or even popular for a very long time. You can see on ebay she only goes for about 6$ RRR and 30$ SP and even that's pushing it. Leopald Reverse and Chatnoir? They're 2$ each. Oh, and BT07 is still in stock in plenty of places.

It's nice to hear that BT07 isn't out of print, one of my friends at my locals who told me about it being out of print misinformed me. Now that I think about it, It's not Goddess of the Full Moon that's expensive but Goddess of the Half Moon instead which is going for $10+ a piece compared to her Grade 3 counterpart being $6 a piece. Either way the entire Tsukuyomi Ride Chain is still a bit expensive to build but not as expensive as it was when it was first released. Leopald Reverse and Chatnoir have been going down in price due to the lack of interest for Great Nature not to mention that they haven't gotten as much support as some of the popular Clans in the game right now.

Meaty said:
A booster of sentinel units would be silly, they're frequently reprinted for most clans and in set 16 and on they're not even clan restricted. There hasn't been a price problem like with Halo Shield Mark in a long time. All that booster would do is devalue the cards in general and slowly make bushiroad lose money. Every clan is quite obviously getting legion units, just like every clan got limit break units. They're just not going to do it all at once. I think they've actually been getting it done reasonably fast, all things considered. The grade 1s lowering limit breaks to 3 damage only serve as proof that bushiroad is NOT phasing out limit breaks, and on that note running 0 heals out of fear of missing limit break is downright stupid. Several limit breaks activate before the vanguard attacks, not after, and therefore are not shut off by drive checking a heal trigger. Even if you damage check it on your 4th damage and you're at 3 damage, you're left at an advantage regardless of limit break by being at lower damage. If you want to use your limit break early that badly, then run some of those self-damaging units that have been around since set 7, or those new grade 1s you mentioned yourself.

Assuming that this reprint set for Sentinels consist of nothing but Double Rares it's possible that the cards wouldn't devalue in price. If Konami had reprinted cards in Yu-Gi-Oh! with their original rarities instead of lowering them then they'd probably be valued more while not being too expensive. I've been out of Yu-Gi-Oh! for a decade but with my experience in MTG in terms of how Wizards manages their reprints in Core Sets (or at least they used to) keeping original rarities for reprints isn't that bad.

Meaty said:
Not every clan can constantly get trial decks. It'd be nice, but it would mean releasing way too many. You also have to keep in mind they have to keep them somewhat modeled after the anime for the sake of marketing. Despite this, we have still gotten a pretty generous diversity of trial decks already. Dimension Police and Genesis trial decks certainly weren't necessary to promote the anime but Bushiroad made them anyway. Clans are still getting support through main sets and extra boosters, and I don't think any clan is currently in need of severe support. Sets can only be so big, so yes, some clans will have more support than others at certain times, and some have legions while others don't. That still isn't a reason to print 15 new trial decks. OTT got two promo legions and an extra booster not that long ago, and they're still far more supported than, say, Megacolony.

^ This I agree with.

Meaty said:
Those cards would all be broken, unnecessary, or both. Not to mention downright silly.

Those card ideas I posted earlier were just ideas to add more defense for Clans without having to focus too much on offensive pressure most of the time. However that kind of defensive pressure based on those card ideas alongside Sentinel units, mass drawpower from Restanding Vanguards, and Draw Triggers does seem pretty broke as it makes it much more difficult for a 2 to pass.

It seems like players nowadays are forced to keep up with the meta through Restanding Vanguards which not only adds more offensive pressure than Grade 3's that aren't able to restand themselves but they also net you a +2 defense (card advantage equals defense) by not losing Twin Drive after the first attack of the turn yet ironically there's Clans that seem to function fine without a Restanding Vanguard as long as you're running 8-12+ Crits depending on what's available in the Clan's cardpool.

Meaty said:
No, Bushiroad created legion to create a new mechanic and keep the game growing and interesting. It's not to counter Nouvelle. If anything, it just counters Link Joker, which also gets Legion support anyway. Aqua Force, Link Joker and Genesis actually have some of the best legions if you ask me. The great players that I know agree. CEO Yggdrasil's legion skill is literally a better version of Sin Buster's in every sense. I'm sorry if you're upset that OTT didn't get a third legion (without even any main set support) and that Daiyusha didn't get one when that unit already has two limit break crossrides and an array of Daiyusha-specific support. But you're just being greedy.[/b]

While I understand that Bushiroad created the Legion mechanic to keep the game interesting there were initial fears that it would make old decks obsolete cause players wanted to keep their decks the way they were without having to invest money in Legion support in order to keep up with the game. Legion adds a consistency to the game where you don't have to commit to running 7-8 Grade 3's when you can get away with running just 4 Grade 3's for Legion while conserving space for Grade 1 and Grade 2 units that you weren't able to run before.

Meaty said:
In general, just please do your research before spouting nonsense about things like card prices. Also think about what you're saying in general before you say it. It's ok to ask questions or share ideas but you're kind of making grand theories and going really far with them without any facts to back you up. You're asking for Bushiroad to change everything in the game just to please your tastes and make everything cheaper, when it's already a lot cheaper than you realize, apparently. Don't complain about something without first making an attempt to research it and understand it. We can't really assume things about cards we haven't even had the chance to play with. Reports from Japan are one thing, but American players seem to play very differently and have different opinions on cards.

Yeah this is what got me in trouble on Pojo 3 years ago when Vanguard first launched here in the States although back then it was mostly concerns about the longevity of the game itself, as you'd expect I ended up kicking the hornet's nest on accident by getting alot of people on the Vanguard forums angry which lead me to apologize to a user on there via PM whose probably still holding a grudge against me for what I did. Trying to learn from the terrible mistake I made I didn't post threads like that ever again but now I fear I made the same mistake again right now.
 
Don't worry, you haven't done anything wrong. I kind of overreacted and harshly tore down your post.You just wrote quite a lot, and some of the stuff about prices for example kind of set me off since it just started to seem like nonsense. I can't blame you for complaining about the game, it certainly has issues, but at the same time if you like the game enough to keep playing it, then try not to complain about every little thing especially when some of those things aren't as bad as you think, or we have no way of knowing how bad they would be, and mostly things that simply are not true in the slightest. The North American game and player-base is, to be sure, quite a mess. Both Bushiroad and the players have their own problems that make the game the silly mess it often is.
 
I haven't reached a point where I'm not having fun playing Cardfight!! Vanguard anymore compared to Yu-Gi-Oh! back in 2004 where I gave up my deck on a whim and never looked back because Yu-Gi-Oh! just wasn't fun for me anymore. I complain about Vanguard alot because I care about it enough to see it become more established like it's predecessors and the same goes for Kaijudo as well.
 
I have played CFV a bit with my friend but it seems kinda boring.
 
Well If you want a game that lets you create your own deck and do your own thing, then this game isn't for you. The main appeal behind Vanguard is the probability of hitting triggers which adds suspense to the game yet at the same time it gives off the illusion of the game being more luck based than skill based.
 
Teal said:
Honestly the game seems 99% luck based so yeah...

*screams*
*writhes on the floor*
Honestly, the most untrue statement in the game. Although, it is quite luck based, but luck is simply something that makes games fun and interesting. Is it really fun if there isn't a random variable?
 
I find chess quite fun.

No but deck building seems minimal and this game seems like something where you learn the "best strategy" really fast and if everyone knows the "best strategy" it's just luck-based because the "skill" levels are the same.
 
Not really, some decks are fairly streamlined (looking at you Archetypes >.>) but some creativity is always good. Now, I tend to mix Clans to get the best of both worlds, and there are always those really out there decks that use those bosses you never see enough of.
 
The rules of the game punishes you for mixing multiple clans in one deck which creates a lack of consistency with the deck(s) you run. When I first started playing Vanguard in 2011 one of the decks I experimented with was a Nova Grappler/Megacolony deck as a way to stall my opponent with Karma Queen, Lady Bomb, and Hell Spider until I was able to stand all my units with Mr. Invincible late game. Since then I didn't bother running a mixed clan deck until I experimented with Highspeed, Brakki in Soulless OTT but eventually took them out for Briolette Magus.

I think for you Teal out of Bushiroad's lineup of TCG's in North America you'd probably enjoy Future Card Buddyfight more than Cardfight!! Vanguard since from what I've heard it's alot less luck based than Vanguard, the game mechanics are solid, and there's alot of players getting into Buddyfight because of Dungeon World. Buddyfight's pretty much dead at my locals since Vanguard is more popular, but that's because Bushiroad launched the game at a time when Vanguard was picking up steam in North America.
 
Dude.
Have you /seen/ things past TD14/TD15? Nothing has clan requirements anymore, and Bushiroad only disallows it in official tournaments. It's so easy to mix now.
 
Aren't clan requirements supposed to help keep the game in check from unwanted power creep when you consider specific skills that aren't meant to be used outside the clan they originate from? Take Cat Butler for example, If it was worded in a way that could be used outside of Nova Grappler think of how devastating it could be for other Legion units. Bushiroad's already gotten away with spamming Silent Tom and Glory Maelstrom abilities on units like Nouvelle Vague and Sin Buster, so this isn't anything new. I'm well aware that they've made functional reprints of cards by different names for almost every clan in order to put them on a level playing field If that's what you mean by nothing having clan requirements anymore.
 
>Implying that the game hasn't power crept to hell
Cards literally don't mention clans in skills any more. If you think about it, Cat Butler and Weather Forecaster, Miss Miss, which were once seen as extremely weak cards, are now powerful with Legion. They weren't there to check power creep, it was so that every clan didn't get access to such cards. I dread to think what Sin Buster would do with Cat Butler.
 
Teal said:
No but deck building seems minimal and this game seems like something where you learn the "best strategy" really fast and if everyone knows the "best strategy" it's just luck-based because the "skill" levels are the same.

With all due respect, I think you need to play the game more before being able to say something like this. The more I play, the more I see goes into deck building, with the exceptions of a few archetypes that have minimal support. There are actually many strategies to the game, even using the same deck. There is definitely not a single best strategy. There's always a risk in rushing, for example, that can make it win you games and lose you games too. I'll admit you're kind of right that the game is more luck-based if both players are skilled enough to not make any mistakes, but when you think about it, isn't that true for every game? The more skilled your opponent is, the less you can afford to make mistakes. And mistakes in this game are very easily made, let me tell you. Now if a player is a lot more skilled than his opponent, they can often win even if the opponent gets luckier with triggers, making the game not so luck based. I've even seen players win games in which they misrode, myself included. Even trigger sacking has its downsides. Sometimes it leaves you with no units in your hand to call and then a lack of a field, which is arguably more important than triggers.

The main thing I like to say about vanguard is it's easy to learn, but hard to master. Yes, the game is luck-based, on irritating levels at times. But that doesn't mean it takes no skill. This applies to both deck building and play style.
 
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