Discussion Broken Cards...

Why would Bridgette be "broken" when it's the classic staple of "Search 3 basic cards" like Pokemon Collector, Call for Family, Hit and Run...? It's the newest version of those historic cards and to be fair what makes evolution decks playable. The game always had cards like these.
 
sylvarina said:
I might actually be in the minority here, but I think Counter Catcher could be pretty busted, I know you have to be behind on prizes but I think it could be a very frustrating and spammable card when you are.
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If you are in the minority, it is because more recent players need to study (as best they can) the history of the game. We've had a card like this before: Pow! Hand Extension. It was a pretty potent card. Obviously, things are different now and then, but the many factors make it hard to predict if Counter Catcher will be better or worse, at least relative to the format in which it finds itself. The Prize count is a dubious means of measuring who is winning until someone has taken all of his or her Prizes.

Nistua said:
It's a bit funny how people always proclaim Brigette would be "broken" because you can search 3 gxes from your deck, although the card is actually much stronger and more important in Gardevoir/Metagross, decks that use it exactly like it's intended to be used...
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It is not funny how people forget or remain ignorant of the game's past. :(

You mention how the card is stronger and more important to some of the current Stage 2 decks; this is true for now. When Brigette released, the abnormally strong Basic Pokémon - Pokémon-EX - were speficially singled out as gaining a lesser search effect. This is because the game's designers remembered how often big, Basic Pokémon could dominate the metagame; it has happened numerous times throughout the game's lifespan. Recently released cards single out Pokémon-GX and Pokémon-EX when an effect works only against them or for anything but them.

Put it all together and Brigette is in a high risk situation; we are just waiting for there to be the right combination of big, Basic Pokémon-GX that work well together as a deck without having a coming-into-play effect, and Brigette will clearly favor such a deck. Please also note that the decks you cite, while competitive, are also still fairly recent. If the powers-that-be were to revert to the original "first turn rules", as they have once before, pretty sure most Evolution heavy decks would take a serious hit.

Green778 said:
Why would Bridgette be "broken" when it's the classic staple of "Search 3 basic cards" like Pokemon Collector, Call for Family, Hit and Run...? It's the newest version of those historic cards and to be fair what makes evolution decks playable. The game always had cards like these.
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Apples to apples; attacks like "Call For Family" or "Strike and Run" are or were just that: attacks. The big concern is how you can field multiple Basic Pokémon-GX in a single turn and still have your attack available. I'm glad you brought up Pokémon Collector; it was more than a little broken when ZPS and later ZPST decks began abusing it. In the Legacy Format, we've seen what Pokémon Collector can do with Pokémon-EX, as well.

To both of you, what makes Evolutions "playable" in the Pokémon TCG is breaking them (or at least close to it). I believe the game could more or less balance out the different fully Evolved Stages of Evolutions but after almost 20 years, they rarely take the actions necessary. You need to be able to spam multiple copies of your Basic Pokémon because there are enough other Basic Pokémon capable of rapidly OHKOing your own; if you don't drop multiple copies of key cards, good chance it won't survive to Evolve.
 
I've honestly just been playing for maybe 6 months and own 0 actual cards and my only enjoyment of this game has been thru PTCGO, so take that for what it's worth. So I dont have all the history and phases that this game has gone thru...

I think CP's argument comes down to four main concepts:
1) Kiawe on T1 for Player 1 puts them in a great shape to win the game.
2) Kiawe for Player 2 is almost meaningless.
3) In an odd-number of series matchups; because of points 1 & 2- Kiawe is "broken"
4) Ho-Oh is an example of a card now...but there could be other cards that this could apply to.

I think I'll start with the last point first:

4) As PMJ's list points out there really aren't all that many cards in existence that compare to Ho-Oh....however I'm kinda surprised that nobody has mentioned the exact thing that CP is talking about. REGIGIGAS (CRI)....On a tanky Basic with 180 HP (Non-GX)- for a cost of 5 (C)- will dish out 160 damage & kick out a stadium. This card does have annoyance ability that he needs 3 friends out before he wants to show off his attack, But you could A. Muk or Garbotoxin around it to remove abilities, therefore removing that 'ability' (i.e restriction) AND not to mention he doesn't have the every other annoyance that Ho-Oh has and can attack every turn without playing a Guzma/Retreat sort of game.

3) In tournaments and such; and I've seen some on stream of major tournaments where people are struggling to get that 3rd game in- Why not just go best of 2 with accumulative Prize Score. If I beat you 6 prizes to 5 Prizes... and you beat me 6 Prizes to 3...instead of pushing to a G3 where P1 is leading off again... its an 11-9 win for you? ONLY if those are tied, would a third game be used? That way each player has T1 advantage...Now if this would catch on- I think would make the following points mute... but I'll continue down the best of Odd number format.

2) You could have P1- Kiawe to Ho-Oh, P2 have the aforementioned Regigigas, find a Fighting Fury belt, and return Kiawe, which would let him survive that initial blow, then on T2- find his friend Prof. Kukui, (probably by Lele); then turn off abilities by either way mentioned above, and your Regigigas has 180 damage, (out of 220) and dealt 160+10 (FFB) +20 to hit that magical OHKO number of 190 to send the Ho-Oh to the discard pile.

I'm also wanting to try to find a way to get a midgame Kiawe off; after Deliqenting away a players hand; but Oranguru & Octillary almost mean that I also need Garbotoxin in effect... its getting messy, but we'll wait and see, but nothing is coming to mind right away...

1) There are multiple counter strategies not named Gardy to deal with Ho-Oh... being that the 2nd person is getting the first attack- You could hopefully luck into Lelex2 & DCE x2...maybe a long shot.

My Vika/Crozma/Slash (featured on YellowSwellow's tdt) would LOVE for you to already have 2 GX on board....(T1- Pass, T2- Black Ray GX (3 or more of the opponent's GX/EX), T3- Painful Sword... and yeah you KO'd my Lele & Necrozma...and were winning 6-2; but that 100 x 2 on ALL GXs at the end gave me a win.... Now sometimes it might take 5 rounds...but I usually just need those 2 attacks, and are able to get there at some point in a game against "Fire Box".

Another route is a fun Gengar deck; You Kiawe onto Ho-Oh thinking everything is awesome... thinking ahead you even put a Wishful Baton on it to chain energies, I would get a Flying Flip for 40 (Ho-Oh are lightening weak); and my next turn get a Max Elixir to a Gastly; which then after playing my timer ball- hit one of and match it with a rare candy, attach the 2nd energy to a now Gengar- which Creep Shows for the KO.... and not to mention- he didnt knock it out by damage- so that Wishful Baton ends up doing absolutely nothing, and you're left with a pretty empty looking board.

But as people have been trying to tell you CP... there are pros & cons to just about every card; if you want to talk about "broken cards" lets bring up the Wild +4 Draw in Uno... and leave Kiawe out of it. Kiawe seems to put all your eggs into one basket- and good luck recovering if someone tips that basket over.

And in the words of Forrest Gump: And that's all I have to say about that.
 
I don’t think that trevenant is really worth banning, as the card itself isn’t too powerful on its own, and doesn’t centralize the meta game around itself. The card trevenant is just as ban worthy as any other popular expanded deck focus. The main reason that trevenant is so powerful is because when it goes first, it can achieve turn 1 item lock. As long as your opponent has a turn to play items before getting item locked, the game is entirely balanced, if not disfavorable to the trevanent side. At least before banning trevenant, maybe put not a ban, but an errata on Wally, where Wally doesn’t work if it’s the first turn of the game (not I didn’t include the players 1rst turn, as my point is for stage 1s to be able to get out quickly, while preventing the turn one item lock.
 
Since sun and moon came out, I personally (any many people as well most likely) feel like Brigette should be banned, OR given an eratta. (1 EX/GX or 3 NON EX/GX Basics) Which seems fair. Brigette is just so powerful early. All you need is for a lele and a brigette in the deck, and an ultra ball/topdeck. (Ultra Ball for Lelelelele, then wonder tag for brigette, then play 3 basics, its just insanely powerful that it needs a ban/eratta.

JUST MY OPINION.
 
TheKangaskhanKid said:
Since sun and moon came out, I personally (any many people as well most likely) feel like Brigette should be banned, OR given an eratta. (1 EX/GX or 3 NON EX/GX Basics) Which seems fair. Brigette is just so powerful early. All you need is for a lele and a brigette in the deck, and an ultra ball/topdeck. (Ultra Ball for Lelelelele, then wonder tag for brigette, then play 3 basics, its just insanely powerful that it needs a ban/eratta.

JUST MY OPINION.
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The thing is, that Brigette provides better help to the decks needing to setup with the small basics. What are you going to do with 3 Drampas on board lol :p
 
True, it really helps my ninetales (2 Vulpix 1 Remoraid) then I Beacon for a GX Ninetales and a Sushi Master (Octillery)8

It does deserve an errata though, like rare candy did (at least i heard, i dunno what they did)
 
TheKangaskhanKid said:
True, it really helps my ninetales (2 Vulpix 1 Remoraid) then I Beacon for a GX Ninetales and a Sushi Master (Octillery)8

It does deserve an errata though, like rare candy did (at least i heard, i dunno what they did)
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Yeah they changed Rare Candy so you couldn't use it on your first turn. I do believe it would be fair to give Brigette an errata, but who knows what they'll do.
 
TheKangaskhanKid said:
It does deserve an errata though, like rare candy did (at least i heard, i dunno what they did)
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Originally, Rare Candy was a far more potent card; the current one actually works like the original Pokémon Breeder, when it was released in Base Set, Base Set 2, and the Legendary Collection. The original Rare Candy allowed you to immediately Evolve a Basic Pokémon into a Stage 1 or Stage 2 Pokémon, skipping the Stage 1 intermediary form in the case of Evolving directly into a Stage 2. At times, this enabled Evolution into a Stage 1 or 2 during a player's first turn, including the overall first turn of the game. "At times" because the first turn rules have varied over the years, and at times you couldn't use what we would now refer to as "Item" cards on your first turn if you were going first. Other times, I think Supporter cards were nixed (making it hard but not impossible to pull off big combos), and I vaguely recall a time when no Trainer cards were allowed on your first turn if you were Player 1.
 
The thing about Brigette though, is that it IS balanced. Anyone can play it in any deck, and use it at any time. There's nothing about it that provides an unfair amount of power to either player, and it's just as easy to prize as any card. And it doesn't result in any broken combos or prevent a player from playing the game. Also, don't forget that before Rare Candy got nerfed, players could attack on their first turn, which could, and did end with there being broken combos. There is nothing wrong with Brigette, and after the first or second turn of the game, you'll never use it, and it will likely never allow for players to donk each other, or shut each other out of the game. I took these 3 traits from Archeops, Forest, and Pokemon Catcher, all of which were unbalanced in the way they were played.
 
gumball51321 said:
The thing about Brigette though, is that it IS balanced. Anyone can play it in any deck, and use it at any time. There's nothing about it that provides an unfair amount of power to either player, and it's just as easy to prize as any card. And it doesn't result in any broken combos or prevent a player from playing the game. Also, don't forget that before Rare Candy got nerfed, players could attack on their first turn, which could, and did end with there being broken combos. There is nothing wrong with Brigette, and after the first or second turn of the game, you'll never use it, and it will likely never allow for players to donk each other, or shut each other out of the game. I took these 3 traits from Archeops, Forest, and Pokemon Catcher, all of which were unbalanced in the way they were played.
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Jumpluff donk lol
 
I feel like first turn donking needs to stop. Pheramosa GX is coming soon and will kill bad hand remoraid starters. In the past donking Pokemon destroyed many games with disadvantages.
 
Tri2attack said:
I feel like first turn donking needs to stop. Pheramosa GX is coming soon and will kill bad hand remoraid starters. In the past donking Pokemon destroyed many games with disadvantages.
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First turn donks haven't been a thing in a while and the only thing you can KO with it on your first attack is a 60 HP Basic with Weakness to it. Right now, I believe people will be replacing Octillery with Zoroark-GX, something I want to start testing with so I expect the usage of Octillery to go down.

As for Brigette, I do expect it to get an errata. Brigette is the character of Poke Bank, something that will always be relevant since it's a service for every Pokemon game since BW and she is still servicing going into Ultra Sun/Moon. I expect her card to exist as long as the service does.
 
crystal_pidgeot said:
First turn donks haven't been a thing in a while and the only thing you can KO with it on your first attack is a 60 HP Basic with Weakness to it. Right now, I believe people will be replacing Octillery with Zoroark-GX, something I want to start testing with so I expect the usage of Octillery to go down.

As for Brigette, I do expect it to get an errata. Brigette is the character of Poke Bank, something that will always be relevant since it's a service for every Pokemon game since BW and she is still servicing going into Ultra Sun/Moon. I expect her card to exist as long as the service does.
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Some decks benefit considerably more from Octillery than from Zoroark-GX. Whilst it is true that Zoroark can actually attack in the decks that it is widely played in, a deck like Gardy that often finds itself with 0 or 1 cards in hand because of #stage2probs and Secret Springing all of your energy, Octillery is insane and Zoroark would be near useless. A deck like Alolan Ninetales however automatically becomes top tier with Zoro IMO, and Golisopod got a whole lot better and that was already top tier. So Octillery’s usage won’t go down too much, and we will still see a lot of it.
 
PMJ said:
Remember when I said that all you do is whine instead of helping people? This would be a great opportunity to make your case so you can show the class that you have no clue what you're talking about.
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I agree that as a moderator you should have more "class" as well. Having privileges comes with duties.

Otaku for president!
 
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