Finished Mafia 53: Twilight's Kingdom

[Zone Q11]

It's not a bandwagon. All the jplap's thing happened in a period when I was offline, I read it today and exposed it was terribily scummy. Are you going to mark as bandwagon to everyone who stays 16 hours offline and then comes and votes?

Uh... Mariano? I think NP was talking about bandwagon the noun. Not the verb.
Jplap has five people now, and that is the bandwagon.
...though I suppose your reaction does clarify your vote now. Well then, what do you think of the events so far? Do you think that jplap should be spared or not? If so, then which question do you think is the most beneficial to town?

This actually makes me think something. We need to get roz explain his vote on me before the Day ends, because if I'm lynched he can mask his explanation after my flip conveniently for him. If he has something to say, some "evidence" that makes me scum, he must expose it now so when I flip town, you'll know he is scum.

I've read until Zone's post #272 only, will continue later. Sorry if something I said was already covered after that.

No problem. I think your posts did not cover anything that has already been covered before. Although I do have to say that getting Roz to talk is pretty much stating the obvious at this point.

 

[Zone Q11]

@quakingpunch73, I am pretty sure that jplap has already answered your question.
If you are here, then can you stop lurking and start giving us your review on jplap again?

 

[PMJ]

Circumstances like not having any substitute?

That, or if, for example, something happens in the game where the person being subbed out would reasonably be lynched with no recourse for the person subbing in, a modkill would be the best course of action in that scenario.

It is 8 to lynch. Numbers in parentheses represent the post number of the vote.

@Professor_jplap - Mariano (62) Jabberwock (97), Celever (114), scattered mind (137) Mariano (168), quaking (170), Keeper (229) L-3
Mariano - Celever (63) NP (71), Jplap (94) roz (111), scattered mind (257)
Zone - Jabberwock (64) Jplap (176)
roz - quaking (82)
Keeper - Mariano (87) Nick (88) Drac (110)
Nick - Keeper (89)
Jade - Jplap (132) Zone (175)

Not voting: T_E, Jade, Jplap, Nick, Drac

This is current as of post 282. The player who currently has the most votes is tagged.

Reminder that votes don't have to be bolded (nothing does), but you're welcome to.

Day 1 ends Sunday, August 19, at 4 PM CDT (Timer) or whenever someone is lynched.

Jade is on V/LA until Sunday. Jabberwock is on V/LA until Tuesday. @roz_the_eevee needs to get his ass in gear.

 

[Zone Q11]

In the mean time, I will re-evaluate scattered mind, who's been semi-online every now and then.
...well, everything would become a stretch, so I will only do the latest posts for now.

Mariano was accused for voting with random.org and that his vote was not going to get any reaction.

Uh-huh. Yes, I understand this. (This is me simply agreeing to you and thus not meant offensive in any way. Please do not respond to these sentences.)

Then Jplap reacts to that vote despite not having to obviously, but if you think about it, it could easily be Mariano and Jplap’s attempt to negate the case on Mariano by showing that Mariano’s vote did get a reaction. It’s a stretch,

It is indeed a stretch, but I can see what you mean. Continue.

but I’ll take it for today’s lynch so we can get that answer from Jplap and confirm or semi confirm his alignment.

This part I don't understand.
What can we confirm about jplap's alignment upon Mariano's flip and jplap's answer?
Rather, which question do you think we should priorotize if jplap turns out to tell the truth?

Makes sense.. Jplap is scummier than Mariano, so lynching Mariano to find out whether or not he is scum is problematic.

I don't understand this part at all either. Rather, if you say that jplap is scummier than Mariano, then why are you even voting for the latter?

 

[Zone Q11]

That, or if, for example, something happens in the game where the person being subbed out would reasonably be lynched with no recourse for the person subbing in, a modkill would be the best course of action in that scenario.

Humu. I see. Understood. Thank you for answering!

Reminder that votes don't have to be bolded (nothing does), but you're welcome to.

Understood. However, I will continue bolding them to make it a tiny bit more comfortable for the GM and Players to find the votes.

Jade is on V/LA until Sunday. Jabberwock is on V/LA until Tuesday.

...oh. This explains a lot alright.
...now I need to re-evaluate everyone's activity again. For now though:

##UNVOTE

 

[Scattered mind]

In the mean time, I will re-evaluate scattered mind, who's been semi-online every now and then.
...well, everything would become a stretch, so I will only do the latest posts for now.

Uh-huh. Yes, I understand this. (This is me simply agreeing to you and thus not meant offensive in any way. Please do not respond to these sentences.)

It is indeed a stretch, but I can see what you mean. Continue.

This part I don't understand.
What can we confirm about jplap's alignment upon Mariano's flip and jplap's answer?
Rather, which question do you think we should priorotize if jplap turns out to tell the truth?

I don't understand this part at all either. Rather, if you say that jplap is scummier than Mariano, then why are you even voting for the latter?

If we lynch Mariano/any other player we get to see whether Jplap is telling the truth or not- that was my line of thought. Then Celever said what he said about the possible flaws in that plan that lynching someone who is less scummy may cost too much if they flip town just for Jplap answering a game question- meaning that the question we ask needs to be so good that it is worth the risk of lynching a less scummy player. This is what I am trying to find out at the moment.

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Who do you think the probably townie D2 mislynch? And why do you think nothing's gonna happen between now and the end of D2 to make us not lynch them? That's a massive assumption on both fronts.

No you're the one who said we're lynching probably town today if we're lynching the guy who would have been lynched D2.

We don't like lynching newbies D1-2, and new indies usually die D3-5. New indies never really win (obviously sometimes they do and kudos to them whenever they do) but knowing they're harmful or not is not worth lynching someone who's probably town because the vast likelihood is the indie won't survive long enough to get to the point where that question would actually be relevant. Again, why do you think it's so important that we should know this? Why do you think reducing our numbers by one is a reasonable cost for the "benefit" of finding out if the indie is harmful or not? I'm really curious about your response, because it's such a weird perspective you've got rn.

And this is meta, but I can't think of a single benign indie in a PMJ game. Can you? :L

It's not like you're reducing numbers by one guaranteed because Jplap is likely town if you ask me. Lynching the guy who would have been for D2 on D1 is perfectly adaquate to get info that can assist a lot, since D5 is a day where it's very likely we'd be in LYLO/MYLO and it's not like half the game isn't composed of veterans.

On the second point, yeah I actually can. He hasn't used an indie in recent games, but in old ones he definitely had at least a couple. I specifically remember one in 14; I remember exactly 0 others in his games that weren't SKs in games with 30+ people to wear down the numbers.

Any lynch today gives us info, it's been quite an info-rich Day 1

Yeah this day is going to be info rich but only because I pushed a counterwagon (multiple lynch).

No, for 2 reasons. A) We have no guarantee that what he reports will be the truth and he can easily lie about his results. B) There will no doubt be several ideas of questions floating around the thread at any given time, and jplap will easily be able to choose the worst one and say "well X told me to ask this one so I went with it I thought it would be useful sorry (((((" and dumbtell his way out of it.

Lol if Jplap doesn't follow through with my plan he knows he's dead immediately.

The bandwagon on Mariano doesn't ring alarm bells? If Mariano's town it basically secures roz as mafia. No one on the jplap lynch is as bad as that.

Then let's lynch Mariano and get a guaranteed scum from your perspective today or tomorrow! (Lol at polarization btw I never agree with this type of statement.)

What tone? I casted a RNG vote, you said it was wrong, I asked why, you explained me why, I understood it and gave you the reason. So what tone are you talking about?

A post has what is said and they way it is said. The second one is tone, which I consider much more indicative of alignment than the first. Simply put, a different mindset will produce a different appearing post.

It's not a bandwagon. All the jplap's thing happened in a period when I was offline, I read it today and exposed it was terribily scummy. Are you going to mark as bandwagon to everyone who stays 16 hours offline and then comes and votes?

No I'm marking it to people that helped progress the wagon to more of a turbo wagon.

Jade is on V/LA until Sunday.

Who here feels like prepping the post when Jade asks to be helped catching up and then never posts again in the game after this?

If we lynch Mariano/any other player we get to see whether Jplap is telling the truth or not- that was my line of thought. Then Celever said what he said about the possible flaws in that plan that lynching someone who is less scummy may cost too much if they flip town just for Jplap answering a game question- meaning that the question we ask needs to be so good that it is worth the risk of lynching a less scummy player. This is what I am trying to find out at the moment.

Consider that we're lynching our D2 guy D1 . The only difference: if the would-be D1 guy is town he gets investigation power going, which the D2 guy wouldn't be able to do.

 

[Scattered mind]

No you're the one who said we're lynching probably town today if we're lynching the guy who would have been lynched D2.

It's not like you're reducing numbers by one guaranteed because Jplap is likely town if you ask me. Lynching the guy who would have been for D2 on D1 is perfectly adaquate to get info that can assist a lot, since D5 is a day where it's very likely we'd be in LYLO/MYLO and it's not like half the game isn't composed of veterans.

On the second point, yeah I actually can. He hasn't used an indie in recent games, but in old ones he definitely had at least a couple. I specifically remember one in 14; I remember exactly 0 others in his games that weren't SKs in games with 30+ people to wear down the numbers.

Yeah this day is going to be info rich but only because I pushed a counterwagon (multiple lynch).

Lol if Jplap doesn't follow through with my plan he knows he's dead immediately.

Then let's lynch Mariano and get a guaranteed scum from your perspective today or tomorrow! (Lol at polarization btw I never agree with this type of statement.)

A post has what is said and they way it is said. The second one is tone, which I consider much more indicative of alignment than the first. Simply put, a different mindset will produce a different appearing post.

No I'm marking it to people that helped progress the wagon to more of a turbo wagon.

Who here feels like prepping the post when Jade asks to be helped catching up and then never posts again in the game after this?

Consider that we're lynching our D2 guy D1 . The only difference: if the would-be D1 guy is town he gets investigation power going, which the D2 guy wouldn't be able to do.

Would you have the same approach if you thought Jplap IS scummy?

 

[roz_the_eevee]

My reason is that MAriano is actualy scum.

To be completly honest, I don't care who dies today.
Town dying would be even more beneficial for me. But I'm not gonna vote town cause of that.

Hence I am voting actual scum.

/shrug

 

[Nick Tornell]

My reason is that MAriano is actualy scum.

To be completly honest, I don't care who dies today.
Town dying would be even more beneficial for me. But I'm not gonna vote town cause of that.

Hence I am voting actual scum.

/shrug

Wait what just happened here...

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Would you have the same approach if you thought Jplap IS scummy?

Same general approach; you always need a counterwagon barring a seer result. Maybe a change here or there.

My reason is that MAriano is actualy scum.

To be completly honest, I don't care who dies today.
Town dying would be even more beneficial for me. But I'm not gonna vote town cause of that.

Hence I am voting actual scum.

/shrug

Can you confirm this is mechanical?

 

[NinjaPenguin]

Same general approach; you always need a counterwagon barring a seer result. Maybe a change here or there.

I probably would be more likely to agree with what you think about my plan if I saw him 40+% more likely scum than Mariano like it seems Cel does, but in general I'd push some wagon for a bit of info and wind up on Jplap at the end of the day.

 

[quakingpunch73]

My reason is that MAriano is actualy scum.

To be completly honest, I don't care who dies today.
Town dying would be even more beneficial for me. But I'm not gonna vote town cause of that.

Hence I am voting actual scum.

/shrug

How is Mariano actually scum?

@quakingpunch73, I am pretty sure that jplap has already answered your question.
If you are here, then can you stop lurking and start giving us your review on jplap again?

My stance on jplap still hasn't changed. I'm agreeing with Cel's logic here. I don't actually think I got an answer to my question. Jplap just requoted his backpedal from his stance instead of actually answering why someone voting with him was scummy. I'm a bit confused what the reasoning is for lynching Mariano right now though? Mariano's mistake at the beginning of the game comes off as genuine to me, rather than being scummy. Jplap has avoided questions and usage of his ability so far seem more scummy to me than Mariano's behavior. The only other thing that stands out to me is Eevee's insistence that Mariano is scum, but I've yet to see reasoning backing that up, and until I do, I'm hesitant to vote him.

 

[Nick Tornell]

Roz lynch day two, anyone? This post reeks of scum for me.

Spoiler: the post

My reason is that MAriano is actualy scum.

To be completly honest, I don't care who dies today.
Town dying would be even more beneficial for me. But I'm not gonna vote town cause of that.

Hence I am voting actual scum.

/shrug

 

[Celever]

No you're the one who said we're lynching probably town today if we're lynching the guy who would have been lynched D2.

I don't remember that? I think I said we'll probably lynch town if we lynch second alternative. I don't recall bringing up Day 2, but if I did, that's what I meant.

It's not like you're reducing numbers by one guaranteed because Jplap is likely town if you ask me. Lynching the guy who would have been for D2 on D1 is perfectly adaquate to get info that can assist a lot, since D5 is a day where it's very likely we'd be in LYLO/MYLO and it's not like half the game isn't composed of veterans.

No, nothing in this game is guaranteed, for us. Arguing in guarantees is therefore inherently flawed.

And what do you think about your question now that roz just outed themselves as the indie? Now do you accept that jplap is the better lynch today, as your question is worthless?

On the second point, yeah I actually can. He hasn't used an indie in recent games, but in old ones he definitely had at least a couple. I specifically remember one in 14; I remember exactly 0 others in his games that weren't SKs in games with 30+ people to wear down the numbers.

OK so he had one 39 games ago. I think it's been long enough and he's hosted enough games since for us to assume he's had a change in design philosophy since then.

Yeah this day is going to be info rich but only because I pushed a counterwagon (multiple lynch).

Congrats? Now that you've got us into that advantageous position, now lynch the scummiest player: jplap.

Lol if Jplap doesn't follow through with my plan he knows he's dead immediately.

And this is the third point I omitted from my last list @scattered mind because I wanted NP to confirm it first. NP's been jplap's primary advocate and his question sucks, so jplap is, if town, stuck in a lose/lose between asking the worst question suggested so far, and defying NP. Either way he's lynched tomorrow, which means if he's not town he can easily skirt by.

Then let's lynch Mariano and get a guaranteed scum from your perspective today or tomorrow! (Lol at polarization btw I never agree with this type of statement.)

No, the bandwagon on Mariano, not a bandwagon vote by Mariano.

A post has what is said and they way it is said. The second one is tone, which I consider much more indicative of alignment than the first. Simply put, a different mindset will produce a different appearing post.

You left out an important part of my post. Why do you think Mariano is scummier than jplap when, when looking at the foundations of each case, jplap's case encompasses the bases of Mariano's and more? Mathematically it doesn't check out.

Consider that we're lynching our D2 guy D1 . The only difference: if the would-be D1 guy is town he gets investigation power going, which the D2 guy wouldn't be able to do.

Except that a lot can happen in a day so we wouldn't necessarily be lynching our D2 guy D1. Very rarely early-game does the person who we think is gonna be lynched D2 at the end of D1 end up getting lynched. Why would this game be different? And it's a baseless assumption that jplap's action is gonna be better than whoever else we decide to lynch. In fact, considering jplap's action is terrible and I think will turn out to be one of the weakest in the game, the likelihood is that jplap's action will be worse than whoever else we decide to lynch. Again, you also omitted from my post where I asked you why you're so fixated on finding out about whether the indie is harmful or not. Why are you?

 

[Celever]

My reason is that MAriano is actualy scum.

To be completly honest, I don't care who dies today.
Town dying would be even more beneficial for me. But I'm not gonna vote town cause of that.

Hence I am voting actual scum.

/shrug

Not to be that guy but the reason I was pushing roz was I had a gut indie-read on him. The fact it was spot on makes me happy.

Plus, it validates me telling NP that new indies don't reach mid-game. So thanks for that.

 

[Celever]

Well, that momentum has stopped now and won't go any further until anyone else responds on it.

Oh I agree, but we can still look at the bandwagon as an entity and the players who partook in it.

True.
...so? What about it?
If he isn't coorperative, then we lynch him.
If we know he lied to us, then we lynch him.
The only way for him to survive this game is if he cooperates and tells the truth.
It's as simple as that.

But the point is he's basically gonna be lynched as soon as his worth is expended anyway, and because his ability isn't that good, that will be quite early. And he knows that. So helping us while he's still alive is the worse play when he's never gonna endgame.

Good... Well then, what do you think of scattered mind's questions?

Honestly I didn't see where he listed them all if he did, but the ones I've seen being talked about since (e.g. from you) still aren't worth the life of a-probable-townie-and-obligation-for-us-to-jplap-later situation we'd be setting up for ourselves.

 

[Scattered mind]

Okay, the plan to lynch Jplap later doesn’t work. I can’t think of a question that cannot be manipulated and enough useful to risk a mislynch.
Plus, now that the indie is out of the way, there is also NP’s strategy out of the way.

##UNVOTE
##VOTE:Jplap

 

[Celever]

Whoa

##UNVOTE: jplap

We don't want no premature hammers up in here.

 

[Scattered mind]

Woops , sorry for that.

@TeamAqua4Life #HEYNICK - you popped out of nowhere to point how roz’s oost was alarming to you. Care to share your thoughts on Jplap, because I don’t remember you commenting on it.