Finished Mafia XLVIII: Motfia

[bbninjas]

I'm actually writing a response to NP, and was intending to do that before making proper comments on Mariano's list, but since you ask:

If I'm reading correctly, Mariano thinks I'm scummy because I am connected to Lorde because Lorde also defended TE, which Mariano thinks is scummy. And if my reading is correct, then Mariano's logic here is very vague and weak.

Regarding the list in general, it is interesting that Mariano managed to develop a read on simsands despite them having very few posts, but is unable to read others who have also made a similar amount of posts.

 

[Draskk]

Doing the same thing as Lorde, putting a + next to the reads I agree with and a - next to the ones that I don't, and an = next to the ones that I kind of agree with, but have reservations about. Plus a special note next to Lorde.

These are my reads on the players. The ordering is the same as the OP.
I want to clarify that the ones I mark as Townie or Scum are just leaning ones, there is nothing strong or sure on that.

• Gekki: Neutral. In his favor, he is playing similar to the past 2 games where he was town. In my opinion, the defense he provided is good. On the other side, there are some little inconsistencies that make me not mark him as townie. = (Obviously I'm totally sure that I'm town)
• Quaking: Neutral. Really difficult to read because his lack of activity. +
• bbninjas: Scum. For the same reasons I'm explaing below in Lorde's part. =
• Jade: Neutral. Never saw a real post from him. + (After second thought, Jade usually does try hard early game then kind of leave)
• Lorde: Scum. I would say her defense on TE when we were discussing his case was a bit excessive, but, in her favor, it was mainly provoked by Gekki who was constantly attacking him. That alone is not too scummy, but joined with bbninjas who was doing exactly the same thing made me think about a connection between you (Lorde and BB). I can't remember any post where you and BB differ in your opinions. = (I agree that Lorde is scum, but I'm not so sure about this bb thing. It's really reachy and not the best point. However, it is a possibility I'll keep my eyes open for.)
• GrandPanacea: Neutral. Too inactive and the few posts he made don't get me any idea of alignment. +
• TLS: Neutral. Too inactive. He once asked for more activity and then he disappeared. +
• simsands: Townie. He was very inactive but the few posts he did gave me the impression of townness. I'd love to see more stuff from him. +
• NP: Townie. I know he can be very persuasive when he proposes it, but I see something different from him compared with previous games where he was scum, I'm not sure what it is, it's just a feeling. +
• Nick: Neutral. Impossible to read something whose only post was "Count me in". +
• TE: Neutral. Like I said before, his wish of a massive claim caught my attention, but well, after a looong discussion he said it was a joke, so it's ok. = (I dislike his wishywashy opinions and unwillingness to vote. Feels like he could be waiting for the exact right opportunity to get someone lynched during EoD. But he is also new so he may just be overwhelmed.)

 

[Draskk]

I'm actually writing a response to NP, and was intending to do that before making proper comments on Mariano's list, but since you ask:

If I'm reading correctly, Mariano thinks I'm scummy because I am connected to Lorde because Lorde also defended TE, which Mariano thinks is scummy. And if my reading is correct, then Mariano's logic here is very vague and weak.

Regarding the list in general, it is interesting that Mariano managed to develop a read on simsands despite them having very few posts, but is unable to read others who have also made a similar amount of posts.

simsands' posts have had much more substance and he has posted more than the other inactives.

 

[GrandPanacea]

Any others that you'd like point out?

Am I allowed to at the moment?

@GrandPanacea, looks like you don't have a vote. Or, for that matter, any posts since RVS. :U

To be fair, I got my quota done, and almost everyone involved is aware that I'm stupid busy with work. (I've worked 32 hours since Friday, and slept about 8). I've also made my vote already, so I fail to see how I don't have a vote.

 

[bbninjas]

Regarding Lorde's inconsistent vote reasons

She keeps changing what she voted, which makes no sense because town Lorde should know exactly why she voted and stick to it.

Looking at that timeline, I'm really not seeing how she keeps changing her vote reason? (Your commentary is underlined and italicised.)

##UNVOTE ##VOTE: GekkisaiDaiNi, this is a blatant disregard to the good point BB made about TE's vote not being an OMGUS, as well as that call for claims likely being a gag (both of which are 99% the case).

The original vote for reference.

It wasn't a bandwagon, it was pressure vote. We had this discussion in WoTG, pressure votes are necessary. That's all I was doing. I don't think you're especially scummy, but it wasn't a bandwagon. Not only was my vote not motivated by sheeping, that was only the second vote on you.

She says it was just a pressure vote, but then asks why I see it as scummy.
I'm not fully understanding what you're getting at here? Do you mean it's weird that Lorde says that Gekki isn't "especially scummy" yet still votes him? If so, it would make sense for Lorde to cast a pressure vote to develop her read further.

Because your vote on him was for disregarding what BB said, even though there's no reason to believe BB's town or always right.

This is something of a fallacy, because my alignment (or how I am being read) shouldn't dictate whether my points are good or bad as you've implied - rather, people should make that decisions based on the justification/logic presented. As such, Gekki should have considered what I implied regarding OMGUS regardless of how he read me, which is where Lorde's vote comes from.

I was relying on the point BB made, it was a good point. That doesn't mean I read him in any specific way.

She then relies on a "good point", which implies she's voting him for scumminess, not really pressure.
I do not see how scumminess and pressure are really any different? A good pressure vote can only be made on someone who has been scummy, otherwise you won't have anything to pressure them about.

What point? Easy bandwagon on a newbie? Or that Gekki didn't get that TE is basically a newbie?

No, the point about OMGUS he made a few pages ago. Gekki flat out ignored that until I voted him for disregard for a reason the case didn't work. This one:
It's vague, but it's saying calling out someone for OMGUS in a situation like this (and now even a player with experience like this) doesn't make it scummy at all.

She now claims the point was Gekki ignoring a question from you about what made the OMGUS scummy, which doesn't seem like "disregarding" you at all. For someone so specific about what words she uses, disregard and ignore are quite different.
I also don't see any difference here? Lorde never said that "Gekki ignored a question [directed at him]", if you mean that. If you didn't mean that, then 'disregard' and 'ignore' seem entirely interchangeable here - used in this post, "disregard" conveys the idea that "Gekki did not consider bbn's post in his vote [regarding TE being new and his OMGUS action]", which is the same reason Lorde gave in her original vote.

1. By this logic it's my point and therefore I'm voting you for a completely different reason than BB, which literally makes it not a bandwagon.
2 and 3 are disproven since it's apparently my own point by your own logic.

And now she says then it wasn't based on BB's point (by using a different point of Gekki's).
You appear to be misinterpreting the context of Lorde's statement here: I voted Gekki for "bandwagoning onto an easy lynch". Lorde voted Gekki for "not considering in his vote the pointed-out reasons that suggest TE's OMGUS is not scummy". Although I wouldn't say these vote reasons are "completely different", they are still different and Lorde is justified in saying what she did, nor has she changed her reason.

All in all, the reasons Lorde gives for her vote actually seems to be very consistent, with subtle differences in phrasing.

 

[bbninjas]

Am I allowed to at the moment?

I don't understand...? Of course you are allowed to post your reads and suspicions on people?

To be fair, I got my quota done, and almost everyone involved is aware that I'm stupid busy with work. (I've worked 32 hours since Friday, and slept about 8). I've also made my vote already, so I fail to see how I don't have a vote.

You shouldn't begin posting less just because you've reached a quota, that is a bit weird. Of course work commitments will play a part in fluctuating activity, but checking in regularly enough and giving brief comments on recent developments is important.

 

[Draskk]

Am I allowed to at the moment?


To be fair, I got my quota done, and almost everyone involved is aware that I'm stupid busy with work. (I've worked 32 hours since Friday, and slept about 8). I've also made my vote already, so I fail to see how I don't have a vote.

Sorry, I missed your vote on TE. MB

 

[Draskk]

You shouldn't begin posting less just because you've reached a quota, that is a bit weird. Of course work commitments will play a part in fluctuating activity, but checking in regularly enough and giving brief comments on recent developments is important.

Mind-meld. Also, bb, you never did this:

Give me a list of points I haven't debunked and I'll debunk them.

 

[bbninjas]

I’ve posted my opinions in the past on 2 occasions look back and you’ll find them

Also @GekkisaiDaiNi, this would be one of those opinion posts that TE is referring to (funny that you missed it, too, since you responded to it...)

@bbninjas you asked for my thoughts so here they are
I do agree that Lorde and Gekki are both acting equally...”scummily” but NP is also acting pretty aggressive and if what people have been saying about how he plays more passively as scum then I think it’s an indicator he’s town as for YOU if I take into account what everyone is saying about how you’re playing this the exact same way as last time when you were scum I can’t let that slide at all and I don’t think anyone else will either with Lorde it seems a bit different she is playing aggressively and getting a lot of offense towards her but she’s able to defend herself perfectly so I feel she isn’t scum with Gekki well... I’m still not sure what I think on that case

 

[Draskk]

Regarding Lorde's inconsistent vote reasons


Looking at that timeline, I'm really not seeing how she keeps changing her vote reason? (Your commentary is underlined and italicised.)


The original vote for reference.


She says it was just a pressure vote, but then asks why I see it as scummy.
I'm not fully understanding what you're getting at here? Do you mean it's weird that Lorde says that Gekki isn't "especially scummy" yet still votes him? If so, it would make sense for Lorde to cast a pressure vote to develop her read further.


This is something of a fallacy, because my alignment (or how I am being read) shouldn't dictate whether my points are good or bad as you've implied - rather, people should make that decisions based on the justification/logic presented. As such, Gekki should have considered what I implied regarding OMGUS regardless of how he read me, which is where Lorde's vote comes from.


She then relies on a "good point", which implies she's voting him for scumminess, not really pressure.
I do not see how scumminess and pressure are really any different? A good pressure vote can only be made on someone who has been scummy, otherwise you won't have anything to pressure them about.



She now claims the point was Gekki ignoring a question from you about what made the OMGUS scummy, which doesn't seem like "disregarding" you at all. For someone so specific about what words she uses, disregard and ignore are quite different.
I also don't see any difference here? Lorde never said that "Gekki ignored a question [directed at him]", if you mean that. If you didn't mean that, then 'disregard' and 'ignore' seem entirely interchangeable here - used in this post, "disregard" conveys the idea that "Gekki did not consider bbn's post in his vote [regarding TE being new and his OMGUS action]", which is the same reason Lorde gave in her original vote.


And now she says then it wasn't based on BB's point (by using a different point of Gekki's).
You appear to be misinterpreting the context of Lorde's statement here: I voted Gekki for "bandwagoning onto an easy lynch". Lorde voted Gekki for "not considering in his vote the pointed-out reasons that suggest TE's OMGUS is not scummy". Although I wouldn't say these vote reasons are "completely different", they are still different and Lorde is justified in saying what she did, nor has she changed her reason.

All in all, the reasons Lorde gives for her vote actually seems to be very consistent, with subtle differences in phrasing.

I can see many massive flaws in this, but I'll let NP respond.

 

[GrandPanacea]

I don't understand...? Of course you are allowed to post your reads and suspicions on people?


You shouldn't begin posting less just because you've reached a quota, that is a bit weird. Of course work commitments will play a part in fluctuating activity, but checking in regularly enough and giving brief comments on recent developments is important.

I was just double checking. I'm flat out exhausted.

As for the quota bit and work. This evening was literally the first chance I've had to check the thread since my last post. I wasn't ignoring the game; I literally worked two SIXTEEN hour shifts, with a scant few hours between. The only reason I'm typing coherently is due to my phone's autocorrect.

 

[Draskk]

Also @GekkisaiDaiNi, this would be one of those opinion posts that TE is referring to (funny that you missed it, too, since you responded to it...)

I don't keep track of every small response I make in this game, and I just quickly flipped through the thread looking for reasons. I didn't see that post when I did that.

 

[Draskk]

I don't keep track of every small response I make in this game, and I just quickly flipped through the thread looking for reasons. I didn't see that post when I did that.

PS. That's just more wishywashy logic and an echo of what he already said.

 

[Draskk]

##Unvote

Expect me to have an actual post tonight when I have time. I need to read up from page 11 :/

@Jadethepokemontrainer, I hold you to this.

 

[bbninjas]

I'd like to see your response, actually, Gekki, because you've spent a lot of your time sheeping behind other people (such as NP). If NP is scum and my reasons are massively flawed, you wouldn't be giving him answers or anything.

I don't keep track of every small response I make in this game, and I just quickly flipped through the thread looking for reasons. I didn't see that post when I did that.

You've on a few occasions expected people to keep track of small responses that other people make, along with other expectations such as people reading giga-long cases, just so you know.

PS. That's just more wishywashy logic and an echo of what he already said.

And you expect a new player not to be wishywashy and a bit confused? It may or may not have been an echo, I don't really know; it's the most recent and has his thoughts all in one place, which is good. (Echoing yourself is not a problem.)

 

[bbninjas]

@GrandPanacea Once you get the chance and aren't feeling exhausted, it'll be great to hear you reads! Alternatively, if you've read the pages up until now, it'd be good to just hear a quick sentence-or-two summary on your recent thoughts.

 

[Draskk]

I'd like to see your response, actually, Gekki, because you've spent a lot of your time sheeping behind other people (such as NP). If NP is scum and my reasons are massively flawed, you wouldn't be giving him answers or anything.


You've on a few occasions expected people to keep track of small responses that other people make, along with other expectations such as people reading giga-long cases, just so you know.


And you expect a new player not to be wishywashy and a bit confused? It may or may not have been an echo, I don't really know; it's the most recent and has his thoughts all in one place, which is good. (Echoing yourself is not a problem.)

How have I sheeped, I made a massive ISO on Lorde and have pushed her like no one else. Really, just because I voted Lorde after simsands did doesn't mean anything. Ive pushed the case far more than anyone else. And I honestly don't feel like making another massive post on a Kindle today.

So I push myself less hard than I push others, sue me.

I never said I didn't. The points are trash, whether he's new or not. I don't think that he was scummy for the echo, I was just saying I already responded to what he was saying in that post because he'd said it before.

 

[bbninjas]

How have I sheeped, I made a massive ISO on Lorde and have pushed her like no one else. Really, just because I voted Lorde after simsands did doesn't mean anything. Ive pushed the case far more than anyone else. And I honestly don't feel like making another massive post on a Kindle today.

It's pretty clear that you never liked how Lorde was pressuring you. Simsands says Lorde is scummy and votes them, you jump at it and agree (nearly sounds OMGUSy on your part, actually). You also weren't finding me scummy until NP (I think?) suggested it. You rarely suggest your own wagons/make original reads, and when you do bring points to the table, they are either echos or stretches. Locking on tunnel vision doesn't mean that your'e not sheeping. As such, I'd like to see you point out these massive holes in my vote analysis, so please don't avoid it. If these holes are so massively obvious, then you shouldn't need a huge post to point them out.

I never said I didn't. The points are trash, whether he's new or not. I don't think that he was scummy for the echo, I was just saying I already responded to what he was saying in that post because he'd said it before.
...the points are not trash. He's missing some important information, but that's more regarding his metaread on me (I tend to play consistently across all alignments). Perhaps they're trash because they suggest you're mafia?

Bolded.

 

[Draskk]

Bolded.

It's not the pressure I don't like, it's the period where she had literally no reason to keep her vote on me, yet she did. That plus all the other points I've made on her. Ahahahahahahaha, no, it's not OMGUS. Remember your case on me last game? This is like that, except this time I'm town and Lorde is scum (I think). Um, I never said I found you scummy? And no, I do make original reads. See my reads list, see the many new points I've brought up on Lorde, and see my pressure vote on TE. I never said that locking on tunnel vision means I'm not sheeping. But adding & pushing several new points certainly does. And, they aren't massiely obvious, but there are a few things you've twisted and ignored. The points are wishywashy and say he's tentatively reading the 2 biggest wagons as scum. That's why their trash.

And if I respond to it, don't you think NP will become less inclined to respond to it?

 

[bbninjas]

No I do not, please respond and stop avoiding it.