P!P/Rules Are prize cards a good mechanic for a TCG?

[I_miss_Zoroark_GX]

We've all been there. Whether it be the last copy of a card you need, that one-of that's essential to your deck, or even most/every copy of one of your deck's most essential cards, at one point or another we've unfairly lost a game because a card we really needed was prized. Can this mechanic really be justified? To be honest, it's completely asanine that you have to set aside 10% of your deck at the beginning of the match, potentially prizing several essential cards. A player also gains 1-2 cards whenever they take a knockout, giving them additional momentum after already knocking out one of your pokemon. It puts them at too much of advantage. The prize card mechanic introduces too much RNG into game and unfairly favors a player when they get a knockout.

What are your thoughts on the mechanic and what ways do you believe it could be improved?

 

[myska707]

I think the mechanic is incredibly fair.

I appreciate that I can have the one card I need in the prize pool. I also account for that when building my decks. If I absolutely need the card, I will certainly run more than one. If the prize cards truly bring you that much trouble, consider running Town Map. This will allow you to strategically select your remaining prizes.

In reference to the momentum gained by a knockout, you must consider that you should be able to expect a 1-2 turn knockout. By preparing for the worst, you learn to keep things in your hand that disrupt your opponent's hands (like N, Judge, Red Card, Ghetsis, etc). This should effectively slow their momentum. Along with prepping for Knock outs, you should also consider what your opponent will be (or wants to be) doing up to 2 turns ahead.

The goal is to build a deck that works effectively and consistently. You want a deck that has different lines that can be run so if 1 card is in your prizes, you have another direction that you can go. Recognize your role in that match and work to accomplish it.

If the cards you really need are stuck in your prizes.... well it sucks. But your opponents have the same chance of that happening to them.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

I would like to see the game move on from prize cards but I dont really see another win condition that can simulate knocking out 6 Pokemon. I hate when I lose because I prized cards needed, even more so when the card is needed for my strategy. Two game I prized all 3 Psyduck, which prevented me from getting the break out and in another three game, I prized both Golduck and in another two, I prized both Golduck Break. I don't like the idea of losing access to cards needed to maintain my deck though this could be fixed if cards exist that can move around prize cards.

 

[I_miss_Zoroark_GX]

I think the mechanic is incredibly fair.

If the cards you really need are stuck in your prizes.... well it sucks. But your opponents have the same chance of that happening to them.

You kind of contradicted yourself at the end there. You can try to justify it all you want, but at the end of the day I think everybody wouldn't mind if prize cards were removed from the game and were just replaced with a die or six tokens. It's inexcusable that somebody could lose because they prize 6 energies or 6 attackers. Yes, the chances that such a thing could happen, but the fact that it could and has happened to people is enough of an argument against the prize card mechanic.

I think the community should come together to get TPCI to change this. Everybody would be better off without it.

 

[PineDog]

You kind of contradicted yourself at the end there. You can try to justify it all you want, but at the end of the day I think everybody wouldn't mind if prize cards were removed from the game and were just replaced with a die or six tokens. It's inexcusable that somebody could lose because they prize 6 energies or 6 attackers. Yes, the chances that such a thing could happen, but the fact that it could and has happened to people is enough of an argument against the prize card mechanic.

I think the community should come together to get TPCI to change this. Everybody would be better off without it.

Eh... not exactly. He wasn't contradicting himself, he said it was incredibly fair, and built on it by the knowledge that your opponent has the same chance of that. As for removing that, no. That's not a good idea. While it may be frustrating to have all of your important cards prized, it would be poor for the game. One, that's kind of the point, to prevent a deck from being to overpowered, the player has to give up some of the cards at the beginning to negate that. By this logic we should get rid of any attack that cripples your deck's strategy, as that gives the upper hand to your opponent. Prizes are more so a reward for being tactical enough to knock out your opponent, and they're a necessity to the game. We wouldn't be better with the prize cards being removed. It's honestly a little stupid to be calling this mechanic unfair because "all my important cards were prized!," that's just probability. If a deck can't run without a single card being prized, you need to either a.) add more copies of that card b.) add Town Map c.) add another card encase that happens. You have to adapt, not complain about the mechanic. It's a feature to the game, and should NOT be removed. Work on consistent builds. Bigger issues instead of this petty issue would be Japan getting more attention with cards, give other Pokemon attention as cards instead of Pikachu, Charizard, Mewtwo, Lucario, etc., and actual threats in the meta without a check.

 

[professor layton]

Prize cards match the video game version of knocking out 6 pokemon.


Also, it's very fair. When you have cards like N in your hand, you can easily screw them up by shuffling their hand and making them get less cards.


I don't see what else would be more fair. 1 card for each pokemon, and 2 for each EX. Pretty fair.

 

[Resilex]

I've always liked the prize mechanic to the game. It adds a little bit of randomness to the game and a potential strategy change based on what cards are prized up. Yeah, it sucks to have some essential cards prized up but that's just how the game goes sometimes.

 

[Problem2]

To me, the biggest issue the Prize card mechanic presents is that there is nearly no true way to deck build around it. You cannot have more than 4 of any 1 card except for basic energy in your deck, which means there is always a chance that all copies of the key card in your deck is prized. So the only true way to circumvent this drawback is to have at least 7 cards that you can rely on for victory. (but probably around 8 or 9 since you want to be able to draw it)

So you are technically able to work around it, but it punishes decks that rely on a specific combo.

There are many different ways they could have chosen to represent 6 knocks outs. They could have used a dice to keep count. They could have had the players take the pokemon they knock out and set it in a pile next to them until they have 6 (and EX's would count as 2). Heck, you can even borrow from Duel Masters where the player who had their pokemon knocked out draw a prize and the person who draws all their prizes LOSES. That would also be interesting because if you are losing due to your cards being prized, losing will let you draw into them, giving you some chance of a comeback.

The reality is though that this game has functioned as it has for 20 years. We have cards that are built around the current prize mechanic. To make a change such as how the prizes work would change the reminder text on all EX's, as well as trainer cards such as N, Town Map, Ace Trainer, Greedy Dice, and more. As such, the only way they would likely ever change it is to stop printing cards that reference prizes, wait until all the current prize related cards rotated out, and THEN make the change.
Honestly, they have no incentive to since the game works well enough as is. We're all still here playing despite the chance of cards we need being locked away as Prizes.

 

[RedT]

It's honestly not ideal, as it traps 6 cards away from your initial draw pool, which could all be energy, all be your mainstay Pokémon or most important trainers. The element of luck it introduces is unwanted, but they're kind of stuck in this rut now with all the cards referencing prize cards in the game.

 

[gumball51321]

I wasn't going to comment, but this is such a problem. Pokemon has been doing this mechanic for 20 years. 20! Why are you even complaining?! If you have such a problem with the way the game is played, why are you even playing? Is it not fair enough that you maybe lose a couple cards vital to your strategy? Guess what? Your opponent has those odds too. There's other card games, so if you have a problem, stop complaining and go play those.

 

[Otaku]

Okay, time to speak up. The thing is some people are going to "get" what I'm about to say quite easily, so if I go explaining it I'll lose them because "tl;dr" while others need me to elaborate because what I am about to say is totally foreign to them, and there is still another group that forces me to be thorough because if I don't, I risk them taking something I said out of context, misrepresenting my point, and if this thread gets busy enough I might return to find a few pages ago everyone went for a trial in absentia and I was convicted based on that distortion (which can be a misunderstanding, so it isn't just the trolls doing it). So... I'm going to Spoiler Tag my massive argument, then after that I'll post my conclusions so people who don't care why I think what I think can know where I stand.

Spoiler

To begin with, it is always important to know what someone thinks the game out to be about. Thinking about it, I believe the Pokémon TCG is meant to be a trading card game based on Pokémon.

...

Why am I leading with such an obvious statement? Because so many people fail to grasp what it actually means. I've had the players that seem to think TPCi ought to be giving away all the cards for free, forgetting that this is a business: we ought to expect the-powers-that-be to desire to turn a profit, and since they aren't a criminal organization, to do so in a legal manner. What is more, there seem to be restrictions on where they will take Pokémon; they want a family friendly experience, which means the overt sexualization of characters is pretty minimal, the gory and/or violent aspects of Pokémon are downplayed (PokéDex entries are basically it), etc.

This is a trading card game, so even though I think I would prefer just being able to buy the expansions outright, we get this sort of lottery like system for most of the product. Sure there are things like Theme Decks where you know what you'll get, but the default "primary market" purchase is the booster pack, which might have something worth a lot of money, or might contain cards worth far less than the MSRP. We have decks that need to be sufficiently randomized, we get to draw a card at the beginning of the turn, etc. A lot of this is so common to card games, it can be easy to forget that the designers could have treated your deck as simply an assortment of cards; instead of shuffling until sufficiently randomized and drawing a card off the top, you could just get to add one card of your choice from hand to deck. The choice to make this a typical TCG injects a lot of variance or "luck" into the game.

Some people prefer to play games where skill determines who wins. Some prefer luck. Most I know prefer a little of both. If it is purely skill based, then you must find opponent's more or less at your exact level or else someone is going to have a clear, obvious advantage. Stinks being the designated loser, but for a lot of us winning because our opponent is hopelessly outclasses isn't fun either. Pure luck isn't any better; you don't really win or lose, you're just part of a process. Plus with pure luck, it makes any sort of complexity needless; just release a coin for each Pokémon where one side says "win" and one side says "lose" and each battle, flip a coin. Again, this is to make the game purely luck based; I'm not trying to sell this as an actual idea. =P Maybe I'm part of a scant minority, but I want there to be enough skill that I own my victories and my losses, but enough luck that both players have a shot at winning so long as said players aren't too far apart in skill, card pool, etc. The tournament setting should all but eliminate the variance; the entire point of the tournament is to determine the player overall most deserving of the win (at least that day). So this is why I believe the game needs no more luck/variance than what is built into the typical TCG mechanics. You build your deck, you have a sufficiently randomized decks, and your draws are (usually) blind.

The Pokémon TCG ought to be based on Pokémon because if not, it could just be the Game Freak TCG or Nintendo TCG or whatever. The experience of the Pokémon video games cannot 100% translate to the TCG; the video games contain a robust one player experience that for some of us, is most of our gaming experience with it. The TCG is a two player experience unless all you do is collect via purchases, or playing two decks against each other but by yourself. =P The computer can track several different stats, and those stats can be triple digit with every digit being relevant, but in real life the players would not enjoy being burdened with such a task!

So...

• Some of us enjoy the variability and unpredictability Prize cards bring to the game. Some of us do not. I am among the latter as too often it is yet another way the game gives me so that I cannot own either my victories or my defeats. If this was the only instance of luck in the game, I might welcome it, but it is not. If you do think it adds to the fun... congrats. I cannot say you're wrong because that's personal taste. I can only explain what I would like and why I would like it.
  
• This is not a good representation of the source material. If we just needed to track KOs, the easy answer wouldn't be Prize Cards, it would be "KO Cards" where when a Pokémon is KO'd, the highest Stage of Evolution is set aside to record the KO. First person to reach six KO cards loses. Or of course they could just avoid involving the cards at all and use some form of counter or token or just write it down.
• The game is 20 years old now, and it is infuriating for a long time player like myself that something which should never have been a part of the rules in the first place (they had to invent this for the TCG), and something that should have been revised out of the game like so many other game mechanics, is still here.

That last one I didn't expect to have to make; you should rarely demand that someone who doesn't enjoy a game "as is" 100% remain silent just because you do like how it's handled. You can however point out that you think it is a waste of time to complain about something, how you enjoy it being the way it is, etc.

@gumball51321 People complaining about the wrong thing is a problem in this game, but the biggest problem I see overall is people who don't raise awareness and stay informed about the problems that exist. That last bit isn't just limited to TCGs, but some general living as well. If this thread was just "I hate X! It is stupid!" hey, you're right that person needs to explain his or her position and give a good reason why we should care, or kindly remain silent. Here? A reason is given and while it isn't worded the best, it is a sound reason.

 

[Sabaku]

I think the prize card mechanic is relatively fair, but if I had to lodge one complaint about it, it would be how often it can leave things up to complete chance. As much as I would love to be able to simply choose who my starting Pokemon or the cards in my hand on turn 0, that leaves things open to disaster on a mechanical level. It would make it too easy for decks to pull off strategies such as 100% Talonflame starts or first turn Maxie/Archie into Blastoise/Gallade/Garchomp and so on. Personally, it would be good enough for me if what our starting Active Pokemon was were to be left completely to our discretion with the trade-off being a smaller starting hand (maybe 6 or 5 cards would suffice).

 

[Otaku]

I think the prize card mechanic is relatively fair, but if I had to lodge one complaint about it, it would be how often it can leave things up to complete chance. As much as I would love to be able to simply choose who my starting Pokemon or the cards in my hand on turn 0, that leaves things open to disaster on a mechanical level. It would make it too easy for decks to pull off strategies such as 100% Talonflame starts or first turn Maxie/Archie into Blastoise/Gallade/Garchomp and so on. Personally, it would be good enough for me if what our starting Active Pokemon was were to be left completely to our discretion with the trade-off being a smaller starting hand (maybe 6 or 5 cards would suffice).

You bring up some good points.

First, "fair" can be a misleading word. The game treats both players equally; your six Prize cards are set aside after you've set down your opening Pokémon. The game is impartial to either players. It is not really treating them "fairly" though; its forcing an additional bit of blind luck on a game that already has several other places where luck can make a significant difference. This one though can undermine your deck completely before the match truly begins. There are ways to reduce this risk, but it is always still there.

There are options other than allowing people to select their starting Pokémon or their Prize cards... but since we are discussing a game mechanic, it is prudent to look at the situation

• With the current card pool
• Without the current card pool

If something makes the game significantly less enjoyable for the players, and the only reason against changing it is because it would cause issues with the current card pool, the solution is to take pains while releasing future sets so that as soon as that problem is resolved, the "something" can be changed. Most of what you bring up is, frankly, another problem with the Pokémon TCG. Most of the rest of the basic rules are sound, however currently the game's pacing is all out of whack, and either most of the card pool ought to never have been printed because its filler, or the top percentage was made too powerful because so much of the rest cannot compete.

So unfortunately a quick fix like "Select the cards that go into your Prizes" isn't an option. Even though that could actually be quite strategic and add another dimension to this game, we have things like Greedy Die that might become broken. With regards to the starter aspect... that could easily become a new game mechanic. Just have certain cards designated (by rules text on the card) as "Starters". You're allowed one Starter in your deck and before you draw your opening hand, you may search your deck for it, play it down as your opening Active, and then draw a five card hand.

 

[NathanPockets]

If a card is essential run more than one copy. You have to build consistent decks.

If you think the game is so bad, you don't have to to play it. There is nothing unfair about being subjected to the same rules as your opponent.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

Two people so far have said "if you dont like it then don't play the game" I'm not going to say how I feel about that for the risk of being banned. The problem with the Pokemon TCG right now is it lacks the option for a side deck, which forces us to use our deck spaces for techs, meaning the things we need for consistency we have to give up. Prizes doesn't make that any better since you can't control what goes there.

Instead of telling of blaming the player for the issues the game has, they could try and function like a actual game.

 

[Sevus]

So I'd like to offer a defense of prize cards from a game design perspective.

1) It enforces a level of variance that cannot be overcome by the incredibly powerful search and draw effects that have consistently been a part of the game. Variance, to some degree, is a good thing as it keeps the game from becoming stale and allows the lesser-skilled player to occasionally win, giving them better motivation to keep playing. I feel that if Prize cards were replaced with a simple KO-tracking mechanic, variance would have to be increased by weakening the power of search and draw effects.

2) Prize cards reward desired player behavior. Since the Pokémon TCG is a simulation of the video game, the primary object is to Knock Out your opponent's Pokémon. Prize cards give you an immediate, visceral reward for accomplishing that task. You could simply have the player draw a card for the same effect, but Prize cards give the same effective reward while also helping track a player's progress towards winning the game.

3) Prize cards open up some design space, albeit limited. Town Map, for example, allows you to strategically pick your Prize cards rather than drawing them at random. Cards like N would be much more complicated to word without the existence of Prize cards.

4) Prize cards give players a form of "luck" to blame their losses on. Theoretically, this should be a bad thing, but it's really, really hard for most people to admit that they lost a game because they were outplayed. Losing a game due to key cards being prized is a feel-bad situation, but it also absolves the player of the loss. Ultimately, to improve, players will have to accept ownership of their losses, but keeping players engaged until they reach the point they want to get better is also key to the health of the game.

In short, are Prize cards the best way to handle the game's win condition? Maybe not. But the mechanic puts in some good work, that I don't think players often think about, especially us enfranchised players that hang around Pokémon forums.

 

[crystal_pidgeot]

@Sevus I have to agree. There isn't any other way to settle this without Prize cards. Most games have life points, something you can't use for Pokemon. Prize cards are the lesser of two evils.

 

[Otaku]

@Sevus @crystal_pidgeot

Believe me, I have considered Prize cards from a design standpoint, which is why I find the mechanic so frustrating. Sometimes in real life... I'm quite the idiot. You know how sometimes you encounter someone and they are doing something the hard way? Then how some of those people aren't just doing it the hard way, but had to invent the hard way because the way it is normally done is still easier and better, but for some reason a person isn't doing it the normal way? Yeah, sometimes I am that person. =P Well, in this case, TPC seems to have done that with the Prize card mechanic.

1) It enforces a level of variance that cannot be overcome by the incredibly powerful search and draw effects that have consistently been a part of the game. Variance, to some degree, is a good thing as it keeps the game from becoming stale and allows the lesser-skilled player to occasionally win, giving them better motivation to keep playing. I feel that if Prize cards were replaced with a simple KO-tracking mechanic, variance would have to be increased by weakening the power of search and draw effects.

Which begs the question of "Why?". If Prize cards exist just because the designers believe that draw/search (which is far, far weaker than when the game first released) was so good it would reduce variance below what the game needed, the obvious solution is to reduce the draw/search power. We are of course discussing the game from before it released, so yes reducing draw/search power to increase variance as opposed to inventing a mechanic was an option.

I am convinced that no further variance is needed now, and possible not back then. It just seems like a misstep in design, or worse an intentional crutch, something the designers used to mask other game design issues.

Edit: Eliminated clunky analogy and needless redundancy. Sorry about that! ^^'

2) Prize cards reward desired player behavior. Since the Pokémon TCG is a simulation of the video game, the primary object is to Knock Out your opponent's Pokémon. Prize cards give you an immediate, visceral reward for accomplishing that task. You could simply have the player draw a card for the same effect, but Prize cards give the same effective reward while also helping track a player's progress towards winning the game.

Notice how we are adding a reward not found in the video games. When you battle another, human player in the video games, a Knock Out is its own reward as it denies your opponent access to part of his or her team. In the TCG, a Knock Out is its own reward as it denies your opponent access to part of his or her resources (the KO'd Pokémon and all cards attached), plus you take an appropriate amount of Prize cards. If you want to claim this represents experience points gained from the single player game, that could work... except I'll just counter with that being part of the single player side of the video game, and best left out of the two-player TCG. If this has changed in the video games since then... well I think the video games have a lot of problems, even if they remain so amazingly popular. XD

3) Prize cards open up some design space, albeit limited. Town Map, for example, allows you to strategically pick your Prize cards rather than drawing them at random. Cards like N would be much more complicated to word without the existence of Prize cards.

Nope. I am not disagreeing that Prize cards give the game designers options, but so do all the other similar mechanics: life points, setting aside KO'd Pokémon and counting up instead of counting down, etc. The fact that an existing card would require errata is worth mentioning, but in and of itself I don't find it a compelling argument for why a hypothetical rules revision couldn't happen in say, a future generation.

4) Prize cards give players a form of "luck" to blame their losses on. Theoretically, this should be a bad thing, but it's really, really hard for most people to admit that they lost a game because they were outplayed. Losing a game due to key cards being prized is a feel-bad situation, but it also absolves the player of the loss. Ultimately, to improve, players will have to accept ownership of their losses, but keeping players engaged until they reach the point they want to get better is also key to the health of the game.

Players will always find something to blame for a loss, even if that player earned it. Some of us are really trying to hold ourselves accountable. Your implication that this is somehow only a cop out seems more like a character attack. I know I am not a good player. At best, I am a little below average (though in a small enough setting, I might be able to fake being a good player). I can still tell the difference of a loss because I made a misplay, and a loss because the misplay was forced via Prizes. I also have been asserting the opposite problem, which you don't address; can you really claim your wins as your own when Prize cards can be such an important part of it.

Remember, it isn't just having six random cards stuck in Prizes; sometimes Prize cards can help you by giving you easy access to something you need, but would otherwise need a lucky draw or powerful search effect to claim.

 

[RedT]

Also, to add, Pokémon could also use a real mulligan rule (like Magic) so if you get a bad hand you can shuffle and redraw 1 less card even if your hand has Pokémon in it. Furthermore, like someone said above, you should have 15-card sideboards (like Magic) for competitive play, so you don't have to include specific anti-deck tech just on the chance of facing a deck of that type.

The trifecta of no mulligan, no sideboard, and prize cards instead of a KO counter makes Pokémon TCG the most luck-based TCG out there, and easy to tell why Magic: the Gathering is the biggest TCG with the most proper competition.

 

[judekevinchu]

It's actually fair. The prizes stand as a challenge on how to build consistency on your deck. For example, against Night March and Vespiquen, the new hot tech card is Karen. It's a tech card, so putting more than one will make your list a bit tighter, and will fail to win against other matchup. So you will have one Karen in your deck against this discard pile-decks. But being one have the chance that if you prized it, you will lose the game. That's why you should make your deck more consistent in that match-up in case your go-to card against that match-up becomes prized.