Discussion Zoroark-Gx or not Zoroark-Gx

To this and anybody else who mentions Japan. Japan still has Hex Maniac, and I feel like that plays a huge role in making Zoroark less powerful vs Ray. Both decks abuse and are hurt by Hex sure, but Zoroark usually needs to Brigette turn 1 and can't afford to Hex, meanwhile Ray can set up AND Hex turn 1, making Ray favored in that matchup.
That's a decent point. I forgot about that fact. I still think Ray wins that MU w/out Hex though. Shaymin allows to get ahead of the prize trade. Could be wrong though, as I'm speaking hypothetically with 0 testing.

Also I'm curious if you've ever been able to fit 4 Fabas and a Xurkitree in a deck. Maybe I'm bad at making decks, but I've never been able to just afford to give up 5 deck slots over other tech and consistency options.
No. My point was more-so that if you need counters, they exist. That being said, my deck for Dallas does run 1 Xurkitree and 2 Faba (with 4 Seekers). So I would gladly hit Zoroark every single match.
 
That's a decent point. I forgot about that fact. I still think Ray wins that MU w/out Hex though. Shaymin allows to get ahead of the prize trade. Could be wrong though, as I'm speaking hypothetically with 0 testing.
I mean I haven't tested the Japanese Extra format either. I just figured that Hex spamming does a pretty good job deconstructing most decks in format. Zoroark and Rayquaza are the two that do it best, but between the two, Rayquaza wins out, making it more popular and ultimately more dominant. That's all I wanted to get across :p

No. My point was more-so that if you need counters, they exist. That being said, my deck for Dallas does run 1 Xurkitree and 2 Faba (with 4 Seekers). So I would gladly hit Zoroark every single match.
Gotcha. You phrased it in a way that made me jump at you, but no hard feelings. I do wonder though if Faba and Xurkitree are necessarily the most effective answers though. Xurkitree is kind of a mediocre attacker, so it doesn't actively win you games, and it can ultimately be shut off with Garbotoxin. And Faba's a great card, but it takes away your supporter for the turn so you lose in the card economics because Zoroark will continue to Trade the following turn, so you still lose in that respect. You may end up finding yourself in a situation where you either can't draw into or be given opportunities to play more Fabas/VS Seekers at the same rate Zoroark finds energy, all the while still needing to set up yourself. Then again I have no idea exactly what you're playing (and you don't have any obligation to share either! Just saying this is the case for a lot of decks even if they can fit those techs in.)

Again, I think it's crazy that we're already at the point where Zoroark can reliably take down the strongest Fighting archetypes, and this issue will likely get repeatedly brought up in the future, because of the nature of Trade and Riotous Beating. I think it might just be better to call it quits here and ban Zoroark now. *shrugs*
 
Gotcha. You phrased it in a way that made me jump at you, but no hard feelings. I do wonder though if Faba and Xurkitree are necessarily the most effective answers though. Xurkitree is kind of a mediocre attacker, so it doesn't actively win you games, and it can ultimately be shut off with Garbotoxin. And Faba's a great card, but it takes away your supporter for the turn so you lose in the card economics because Zoroark will continue to Trade the following turn, so you still lose in that respect. You may end up finding yourself in a situation where you either can't draw into or be given opportunities to play more Fabas/VS Seekers at the same rate Zoroark finds energy, all the while still needing to set up yourself. Then again I have no idea exactly what you're playing (and you don't have any obligation to share either! Just saying this is the case for a lot of decks even if they can fit those techs in.)
I'm playing a mill deck so I don't care for either's downside. Though for Faba, using them may be worth it since it puts you in a very advantageous position if you use it 2-3 times. I could be biased due to the nature of my deck but that's just my opinion :p
 
I do not think DCE is the issue as much as Zoro is. The common denominator in the expanded format is Zoro. Taking away DCE hurts a lot of other decks in the process and would make acceleration decks (malamar, eels, bronzong, patches) the only way to compete. People that think dark patch in Zoro is a seamless fix to losing DCE are wrong. Right now they need 4 spots, patch would be around 10 in my opinion. Taking away 6 spots hurts the deck as they can't tech for everything. The fact that Groudon and Buzz don't have a favourable matchup against Zoro should be an indicator of what the problem is. @Caleb Gedemer just wrote a really good piece on a good counter to Zoro, y'all should check it out. I believe the next bans should be Delinquent, Maxie and Zoro.
 
Also I'm curious if you've ever been able to fit 4 Fabas and a Xurkitree in a deck. Maybe I'm bad at making decks, but I've never been able to just afford to give up 5 deck slots over other tech and consistency options.
cough cough VS Seeker to recycle 1-2 Faba's.

If DCE is as much of a problem as you guys make it out to be, certainly it can't be too much of an issue to run multiple counters to it.

Zoroark as a card basically enables any stupid/unfair combination of cards that were previously not practical, unreliable, and inconsistent. With a growing card pool with each coming set, this "Zoroark problem" is likely to just get worse over time and I think it's really telling when Zoroark already has the means to reliably best BuzzRoc decks with Sudowoodo packed in them.
Do you have examples of "stupid/unfair" combos that Zoro specifically enables?
 
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Zoroark can still do well without DCE. Just run 3 Elixir, 3 Dark Patch, 2 Energy Switch, 1 Naganadel LOT (with Ditto).
 
cough cough VS Seeker to recycle 1-2 Faba's.

If DCE is as much of a problem as you guys make it out to be, certainly it can't be too much of an issue to run multiple counters to it.
I have faith that I and other players aren't stupid when it comes to building decks. We'll use Faba when appropriate. Some decks like Rayquaza or Buzzwole would likely have an easier time dealing with DCE (on Zoroark) by just knocking out the thing with the DCE on it, because after all, a pretty good way to remove energy is to just knock out the thing with energy. Other decks that don't have that luxury would do best with a Faba thrown in with some VS Seekers. But if tournament results and my personal experiences tell me anything, that isn't enough to swing matchups in your favor. Zoroark continues to win and you know there's a reason why. Faba definitely helps, but you need to draw into Faba first, and then you need to draw into VS Seekers after that. How do you suggest going about that? For most decks, it means playing draw supporters... which means you're not playing Faba. You can spam Faba a few times I'm sure, but then the problem is that you're not drawing nearly as many cards compared to your opponent who's spamming Trade every turn, finding more DCEs to replace the ones you've removed and continuing to take out your underdeveloped board, since you've chosen to Faba each turn instead of using something else. Again, Faba is helpful, but it's not a silver bullet by any means.

Do you have examples of "stupid/unfair" combos that Zoro specifically enables?
I'll say in the outset that I don't have a rigorous definition for "stupid." Somethings are "just stupid" and shouldn't exist.

Before the Hex Maniac ban, we had a Zoroark that nuked for a single DCE, drew a ton of cards, and ability locked starting turn 2 almost without fail. That's pretty stupid when no other deck could come close to doing something like that, but all that looks rather tame now huh.

Right now there's the Red Card/Marshadow + Delinquent + Peeking Red Card combination, which you could definitely argue isn't Zoroark specific. However, Zoroark is still the most efficient attacker in the format in terms of durability and power, and Trade enables you to do this again in the same game if you need to, which distinguishes Zoroark from almost anything else you could think about using this combo in. This is one combination that cropped up to more prominence, in part to Zoroark, that directly prevents your opponent from "playing the game," which is apparently something TPCi hates, so no doubt this combination is "stupid." Again, if you don't think it's Zoroark's fault, that's fine.

ZoroToad basically revolves around using Trade (or Propagation + Trade) to avoid needing to play a draw supporter each turn so you do stuff with Plumeria/Skull Grunt/Lusamine/Acerola/etc. each turn to establish a lock, while creating opportunities to recycle resources with Oranguru. I don't think you can argue that Trade isn't what enables this, since the part where you Tirtouga and Oranguru to both cheat your way out of milling yourself out and recycle resources ad infinitum respectively isn't a trait that's shared with something like Wailord + Tropical Beach, or any other deck for that matter. To break this down, 1.) you can afford to play these non-draw supporters each turn. I have no evidence to back this up, but my hunch is that these supporters were originally designed with the understanding that the opportunity cost of not playing a draw supporter is what keeps these balanced. Trade and Propagation + Trade essentially negates this opportunity cost, which is somewhat unfair but whatever. 2.) The Tirtouga + Trade combo completely avoids a clause that was built into the game and allows you to exist in a state of having drawn out your entire deck but never losing as a consequence. This is also unfair, but again whatever, because that's only 1 out of the 3 traditional win conditions. 3.) The Oranguru recycling resources basically allows Zoroark to have almost unlimited resources when combined with the point above, which just breaks card games in a traditional sense.

Now that I'm writing this, I will take this moment to rephrase what I said. There's nothing inherently wrong about a deck being unfair since all good decks are unfair in some way. Think Beast Ring attaching energies from the deck as an item card (like literal wtf), Archie's Blastoise putting a stage 2 into play turn 1 and attaching however many energies you have in hand, Garbodor denying abilities, Trevenant locking items, Lycanroc GX having a gusting effect without Guzma, etc. But I think we enter scary territory when the things a deck does bends and breaks standard conventions about how a card game should operate, in multiple ways at that. My point from my previous post was that this is not going to get any better going forward with new cards getting released and other strategies get discovered that abuse Trade. I've provided recent examples that I think illustrates the case. So just ban Zoroark now, or wait until Zoroark is power crept out somehow, which makes my head spin trying to think about.
 
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I just want those of you who are thinking of recycling your 1, maybe 2 Faba with VS Seeker; Seismitoad EX is played in virtually all Zoroark-GX variants as either a secondary attackers or as a tech.

At any time, they can plop one down, DCE, Float Stone on the active, retreat, Quaking Punch.

If your 1 Faba is in the discard pile. Start crying. You aren’t getting it back.
 
I have faith that I and other players aren't stupid when it comes to building decks. We'll use Faba when appropriate. Some decks like Rayquaza or Buzzwole would likely have an easier time dealing with DCE (on Zoroark) by just knocking out the thing with the DCE on it, because after all, a pretty good way to remove energy is to just knock out the thing with energy. Other decks that don't have that luxury would do best with a Faba thrown in with some VS Seekers. But if tournament results and my personal experiences tell me anything, that isn't enough to swing matchups in your favor. Zoroark continues to win and you know there's a reason why. Faba definitely helps, but you need to draw into Faba first, and then you need to draw into VS Seekers after that. How do you suggest going about that? For most decks, it means playing draw supporters... which means you're not playing Faba. You can spam Faba a few times I'm sure, but then the problem is that you're not drawing nearly as many cards compared to your opponent who's spamming Trade every turn, finding more DCEs to replace the ones you've removed and continuing to take out your underdeveloped board, since you've chosen to Faba each turn instead of using something else. Again, Faba is helpful, but it's not a silver bullet by any means.


I'll say in the outset that I don't have a rigorous definition for "stupid." Somethings are "just stupid" and shouldn't exist.

Before the Hex Maniac ban, we had a Zoroark that nuked for a single DCE, drew a ton of cards, and ability locked starting turn 2 almost without fail. That's pretty stupid when no other deck could come close to doing something like that, but all that looks rather tame now huh.

Right now there's the Red Card/Marshadow + Delinquent + Peeking Red Card combination, which you could definitely argue isn't Zoroark specific. However, Zoroark is still the most efficient attacker in the format in terms of durability and power, and Trade enables you to do this again in the same game if you need to, which distinguishes Zoroark from almost anything else you could think about using this combo in. This is one combination that cropped up to more prominence, in part to Zoroark, that directly prevents your opponent from "playing the game," which is apparently something TPCi hates, so no doubt this combination is "stupid." Again, if you don't think it's Zoroark's fault, that's fine.

ZoroToad basically revolves around using Trade (or Propagation + Trade) to avoid needing to play a draw supporter each turn so you do stuff with Plumeria/Skull Grunt/Lusamine/Acerola/etc. each turn to establish a lock, while creating opportunities to recycle resources with Oranguru. I don't think you can argue that Trade isn't what enables this, since the part where you Tirtouga and Oranguru to both cheat your way out of milling yourself out and recycle resources ad infinitum respectively isn't a trait that's shared with something like Wailord + Tropical Beach, or any other deck for that matter. To break this down, 1.) you can afford to play these non-draw supporters each turn. I have no evidence to back this up, but my hunch is that these supporters were originally designed with the understanding that the opportunity cost of not playing a draw supporter is what keeps these balanced. Trade and Propagation + Trade essentially negates this opportunity cost, which is somewhat unfair but whatever. 2.) The Tirtouga + Trade combo completely avoids a clause that was built into the game and allows you to exist in a state of having drawn out your entire deck but never losing as a consequence. This is also unfair, but again whatever, because that's only 1 out of the 3 traditional win conditions. 3.) The Oranguru recycling resources basically allows Zoroark to have almost unlimited resources when combined with the point above, which just breaks card games in a traditional sense.

Now that I'm writing this, I will take this moment to rephrase what I said. There's nothing inherently wrong about a deck being unfair since all good decks are unfair in some way. Think Beast Ring attaching energies from the deck as an item card (like literal wtf), Archie's Blastoise putting a stage 2 into play turn 1 and attaching however many energies you have in hand, Garbodor denying abilities, Trevenant locking items, Lycanroc GX having a gusting effect without Guzma, etc. But I think we enter scary territory when the things a deck does bends and breaks standard conventions about how a card game should operate, in multiple ways at that. My point from my previous post was that this is not going to get any better going forward with new cards getting released and other strategies get discovered that abuse Trade. I've provided recent examples that I think illustrates the case. So just ban Zoroark now, or wait until Zoroark is power crept out somehow, which makes my head spin trying to think about.
I agree with most of what you said here (especially the Beast Ring part, screw that card). I'd be 100% okay with banning Delinquent after the rise of the Red Card, Delinquent, peeking red card combo. I say this because if Red Card were banned, people would just Marshadow.

All of this comes down to what Zoro enables, not DCE. You could say DCE enables Zoro which enables these, but I could also say draw supporters enable Zoro, or Ultra Ball. Basically my point is go ahead and ban Zoro in expanded, it's an insanely strong and versatile card that kills a lot of diversity in the game and banning DCE will damage much more and be significantly less efficient in toning Zoro down.
 
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