'World Down' and 'Legendary Heartbeat,' Japan's Summer Sets Introducing Amazing Rares!

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
I don't think Shaymin-EX will get banned.

FIGHT!

They don't normally, if ever, ban cards for making the format too fast.

Up to this point, they haven't. Almost all of Pokemon's consistency has been in the form of once-per-turn Supporters, or requiring a massive setup (multiple Zoroark-GX). Shaymin-EX has been sort of weird in Expanded, it's been ok. It's helped combo decks do their combo thing more consistently, but it's come to a head that can't be ignored anymore.

In the end, it all depends on how fast they want their format to be. EVEN IF Shaymin-EX is banned, give it like 5 sets from now and we'll just be back here with maybe say, a Lumineon V that while is much needed in standard for the speed it brings, would be """"busted"""" in expanded due to it's speed, especially when combined with X card. So then they'll ban that, or no, would they ban the card that "makes it busted"?

Then we can address that problem 5 sets from now. In an ever growing format, banlists will always get bigger. I mean, look at Yugioh.

Nobody had complaints about Shaymin-EX before Scoop Up Net, just saying.

There were complaints. Lots and lots of complaints. Look back last season at Zoro-Exodia. It was one of several cards pointed at as being a problem. Red Card and Delinquent were deemed the bigger problems at that time.

I don't think either card deserves a ban, since I think currently their only thing with bans is "do you at least get 1 turn to play the deck?" and NO, donk shouldn't be included in this. Even then, I still honestly feel banning Latios-EX or Pheromosa-GX works better. But the reason why I'm saying don't include donk when talking about Shaymin-EX/Scoop Up Net ban is because it's not exactly unviable, but definitely not a deck I'd ever bring to a bigger tournament, unless I'm expecting like ONLY Roweggs or something. Sure in bo1s this deck rocks, but since when will they ban a card for not being fun to play with with your friendos, lol.

Another thing to think about. A lot of the T1 hand lock strategies wouldn't be NEARLY as good without Shaymin-EX. Not to say you couldn't do it, but definitely not as good as they were.

TrevNoir hand lock got Top 8 at Dallas. And Turbo Dark was THE DECK to run for the event and looked like it would destroy TrevNoir effortlessly. And TrevNoir got Top 8. When SwSh came out, it was still one of the top decks to run. Now it's one of the only 2 decks you can run. The only thing it has in common with Turbo Donk: Shaymin-EX and Net. Without Shaymin, Net isn't Broken. There isn't a single deck that becomes busted and will dominate the meta in the same fashion as TrevNoir hand lock if Net stays unbanned.

Additionally, Zoro Exodia was a "second turn hand lock" and that deck got destroyed by the banlist.

And now with Crobat V, "Shaymin #5", the combo gets an ever bigger consistency boost if left untouched. Even if you banned Net, you could still use Super Scoop Up and the 1-of Scoop Up Cyclone (if you aren't already). The combo will still be viable.

But honestly, Milotic will more than likely get a ban as well (as it's Ability lends to the idea that it was never expected to be used outside of EX-era).


Multiple things will get hit, but Shaymin-EX is almost a shoe in.
 

Gunther Spindler

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Whats really screws up Raikou its that Metal energy on its cost, I mean, if it was (L)(G)(C) it would be acceptable on Expanded Ray or even Pikarom as 1 of, but now, only in decks with Counter Energy that already play either L,G or M.
 

NicoNoo

Meta/budget player
Member
Yeah I don't see why people are creaming themselves so much about the Raikou. Turbo Charger is a thing, but it's also a coin flip. Koko is a thing but it's also limited to 1 per deck, and are you really wasting your Koko in a 120 bench snipe? Max Elixir... I mean ok, if you can somehow manage to hit the right energy in your sequence in a deck with a triple-energy split. Vikavolt seems the best, but Vikavolt is already a clunky stage 2 line in a format where the opponent will go through half their deck in one turn and setup far more threatening attackers while you are stuck with your Vikavolt setup, IF you don't get locked or disrupted in any significant way beforehand.

Unlike Rayquaza and Jirachi this doesn't have Metal Saucer and Black Belt to cheat out costs. So you are stuck running triple-energy splits.
 

k0nod1od4

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I want to like Amazing Raikou. It reads like it's on the cusp of great potential. a 1-Prize Pokemon that can put 240 damage ON THE BOARD for nothing more than a wonky attack cost (no "damage to all your Pokemon", no self-mill, no coin toss, no extra conditions. Just "if you have the energy, it works").

Vikavolt decks or Rayquaza-GX seems like the go-to for it. My biggest concern is that, Vikavolt has consistency issues, but can otherwise fulfill 2/3 the attack cost once it's going.
And Rayquaza-GX is usually all about blowing up whatever is in front of it.

So it begs the question: what is Raikou useful for in either of these decks exactly? 120 damage up front these days isn't much. An additional 120 damage to the bench CAN be good sniping off weird stuff, but for the most part, you're either taking pot shots at 2-3 Prize Pokemon or sniping off easy Basics and getting 1 Prize anyway. Unless the deck caters toward that sort of Energy acceleration, it seems it can only set up math for future KOs, or it's used as a late game finisher if you set damage up beforehand. But it also comes off as a heavy-handed way of pulling off a niche-game finisher. Vikavolt and Rayquaza-GX were all about blowing up whatever is Active. Amazing Raikou goes against this.

Additionally, there's the "it can snipe Shaymin-EX", but I'm of the belief that a banlist change is more effective against Shaymin-EX. If you don't think Shaymin-EX will get banned, fight me.
Scoop up net is the problem, not shaymin. It's like when island challenge amulet was banned, jirachi ex was in the format for years but island challenge amulet made jirachi broken, it's a similar situation with scoop up net and shaymin. I could also see scoop up net getting an errata so it can't pick up ex cards
 

NicoNoo

Meta/budget player
Member
Zekrom is OK, 2 free paralysis for LLC is damn amazing and probably a tool that could be used to stall out in Boltund decks that already use Chuchu for the para. You guys need to remember that despite this being a format with 4 Switches and 4 Scoop Up Nets, you need to actually HIT said switch outlets to escape the condition. I have had many games where it comes down to me having a switch outlet against Chuchu but I get manhandled by a stray Marnie getting rid of my Switch copies in hand - which is why I have also taken to put Switch copies on top of the deck with Oranguru. The fact that it's not stuck to a stage 2 that needs additional conditions for the guaranteed paralysis makes it even better.

Metagross is... eh? There are definitely better cards to run if you want to cheat retreat costs in almost any relevant deck and its attack is meh.
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
Scoop up net is the problem, not shaymin. It's like when island challenge amulet was banned, jirachi ex was in the format for years but island challenge amulet made jirachi broken, it's a similar situation with scoop up net and shaymin. I could also see scoop up net getting an errata so it can't pick up ex cards

There are distinct differences between Jirachi-EX VS Island Challenge Amulet and Shaymin-EX VS Scoop Up Net

With Jirachi-EX and Island Challenge Amulet. Both cards were part of an integral hand lock combo. If you were to ban one over the other, there would be balance either way, especially since there weren't any other examples where either could be utilized--this was more of a "both are balanced on their own, but are problematic only together, so what do we do". The only thing I can think of is that TCPi will normally side with the Pokemon because people play the game for Pokemon--not odd hardly-used in-game Items that get printed as a Trainer.

In the case of Shaymin-EX, it's been an enabler of problem combos in the past (Zoro-Exodia being the most recent example outside of the current meta). However, Zoro-Exodia only highlighted other cards that were a part of the larger combo that proved to be problematic.

You don't need Scoop Up Net for TrevNoir or donk to be successful. Arguably, donk NEEDS Net in addition to Shaymin-EX to ramp out higher damage numbers with Galarian Zigzagoon. But TrevNoir got Top 8 at Dallas Regionals this year without Net. And it did it in a field of decks that could OHKO Trevnoir due to Weakness. TrevNoir would also see three Top-8 spots in Collinsville. Again, without Net. And even won the event.

Arguably, Net makes the deck more consistent, but the deck arguably didn't NEED Net to function. It NEEDS Shaymin-EX to deep-draw.

Pokemon doesn't like to ban Pokemon unless we have to. But it's at a point to where you either apply Occam's Razor and ban Shaymin-EX, or you ban well over a dozen cards to keep Shaymin-EX in format, only to have to re-address probably banning it later.

As far as an errata goes. An erratta only works if you're in a game where you're reprinting cards constantly (Yugioh). The only cards that get reprinted constantly are Trainers and very very few times is an erratta issued (Pokemon Catcher). The only times Pokemon issues an errata seems to when theres a printing error (EVO Electrode and Cyrus Prism Star). Or when they reprint a card and want to make past versions of the card still playable (Quick Ball) because the text of the new one is newer and they don’t want to confuse people with 2 cards with the same name (don’t @ me with Power Plant). I don't think they have ever issued an errata because a card was problematic right out of the gates--they usually reserve that for banlists (Jessie & James, Chip-Chip Ice Axe, Reset Stamp).
 
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OVERGRO

Pokemon is lyfe.
Member
Metagross has a great Ability and honestly the attack isn't so terrible (locks down Vmax mons). However, as usual, it is cursed by being a Stage 2.

I honestly wouldn't mind Big Basics so much if single-prize Stage 2s were buffed to be more competitive with them in HP and attack cost/power, in addition to keeping their strong Abilities.
 

Merovingian

Dead Game Enthusiast
Member
All I care about is the Celebi.

Quick translation program says it's 30X the Energy attached to....you? Them? Both?

Amazing Bloom evolves all of whatever is on your Bench.

Personally....big oof. IIRC, there's a Shining Celebi coming out soon anyway because of the movie, so I'll hold out for that one.
 

Jackrockstar

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I’m really interested in Alcremie VMAX. Gives some pretty decent psychic energy acceleration in a format where that’ll be lacking and has a good synergistic attack to boot. It could end up being too clunky in practice, and that weakness to steel is gonna hurt a lot, but idk I have hope.

Also, I could see Togekiss vmax stall being a thing in the future
 

Emerfirek

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Ya, the Eevee came w/ no surprises in the slightest. It also looks like Coalossal is set for a VMAX as well, w/ those generic attacks (90+burn is easy enough to understand).

That Steelix artwork stole my heart though. I want just 1 of it. Its attacks make it seem like kind of a more expensive, bulkier, [M] variation of Regirock-V. Dunno if that's a good or bad thing though.

I also feel like Togekiss-VMAX deserved the Sky Circus ability. That would've been so cool. As it is now, what's the plus of it over Starly? Doing 120 to the Active for the same Energy cost? Actually, it's not even the same Energy cost w/o Bird Keeper b/c it can't use Twin either. But now I really want to see a Sky Circus V or VMAX mon after seeing this.
 
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NicoNoo

Meta/budget player
Member
Amazing Zacian is a crazy addition to ADP - the deck previously had problems reaching OHKO numbers against mons in the format which also ended up making it worse than Zacian Combo and Dragapult V-Max, while also being slower to setup than Pikarom. However, with the loss of Jirachi Prism, the rotation of most good accel for Lightning + the continuous prints of sturdier V-Max mons, ADP only needs to get off Ultimate Ray to load a benched copy of Zacian and hit a OHKO against absolutely any V-Max in format, after Altered Creation GX - even Snorlax and Eternatus fall with an attached Vitality Band or a 'Goon tick. The fact that this is a 3-4 turns setup to win, no matter the deck you are facing, whereas most V-Maxes will be achieving their game-ending setups in 5-6 turns depending on single-prize/multiprize KOs, could probably lead to a resurgence in ADP decks.
 

vinyl_warrior

Aspiring Trainer
Member
This new Eevee VMAX promo will be given out as a “Rock-Paper-Scissors” prize, whatever that means.

At the end of Gym Battle events, everyone usually gets a sealed promo card (one of ~8 usually not great cards; e.g. Polteageist V is one of the “goods” ones in the current batch; some are common basics with alternate art) , the Swiss winner gets another, and then everyone plays rock-paper-scissors with the winner getting a special card. At least where I play.
 

Kaizaac

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I think that Alcremie Vmax is my favorite Vmax yet. But where’s my Orbeetle Vmax? I’ve waited long enough, I’m getting impatient.
 

N's Rhyperior

Pokebeach's The Rhyperior = YouTube's N
Member
  • Celebi Rainbow - speed up evolving. 4
  • Zacian Rainbow - If we pay this attack cost, we can KO any low HP VMAXs. There's no P weak VMAX tho. 4
  • Zamazenta Rainbow - Okay. Mini Zamazenta VMAX but to clunky to get this rolling. 3 Geodudes
  • Togekiss V/ VMAX - some decks might take adv of this because this thing searches cards for consistency. 4-5 Geodudes
  • Alcremie V/VMAX - Since P got suck post-rotation, maybe this will go on a Welder deck, just whack some Horror Energy in there. 4
  • Ampharos V - This and Weezing, just Weezing. 3-4
  • Coalossal V - Even with Coalossal, its still expensive. 3-4
 

taigercub

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I think that Alcremie V Max is going to be really big because it is blowns but with any energy that means that attaching a triple accel automatically boosts your damage by 180

edit: I can't wait to see some crazy things with celebi
 

Poke_collector

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Alcremie V second attack could shut down a lot of competitive decks because of its ability to stop your opponents Pokemon attacking
 
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