Ruling When is it played?

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by PrimePokeDaddy, Oct 11, 2018.

  1. PrimePokeDaddy Aspiring Trainer
    PrimePokeDaddy

    Advanced Member Member

    I couldn't find anything in the rules about this, so I thought I would pose the question here. I was playing a game and my opponent used Wonder Tag, they went into the deck pulled a Guzma, put it on the mat, and then started shuffling their deck. They then pulled a Cynthia, put the Guzma back, shuffled their deck, and then played Cynthia as normal.

    So really two questions:

    1. Was this legal since you are able to search your deck for what you want? My gut says yes, but I don't want to get taken advantage of next time if not.

    2. When is a card "played" so that an action can't be taken back? For example, holding a choice band slipped under a card, not letting go, thinking better of it and putting it back in your hand, versus letting go and then saying that wasn't what you meant to do. Or announcing that you are attaching energy to Lycanroc GX, but putting it on Zoroark GX, letting go, then correcting to what you said.
     
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  2. VioletValkyrie Maiden of Murder
    VioletValkyrie

    Chat Room Staff Member

    While I don't know the proper rulings myself I'd like to put my foot in the door with this post a little bit since if I'm wrong I'm curious and would like to be corrected.

    Yes, I believe this is legal as I've heard around that (as long as your search takes a reasonable time limit) you're allowed to search your deck and make a decision before the moment you offer your opponent to cut your deck, and can take back your decision as long as it's before this point. However I believe as a player you should really refrain from setting down your search target and beginning to shuffle if you have a slight doubt in your search target so you don't cause something like this.

    While this was from a couple years ago I had addressed this question with a Judge at a Regionals and had been told once a card leaves a player's hand and they let go of it on the board, the card is considered played and cannot be taken back. If you announce that you attach an Energy to one Pokémon but physically attach it to another, I personally believe that should just be given the benefit of the doubt and be treated as your opponent just making a mistake, as long as they state what they planned to do before letting go of the card themselves.

    I hope this helps, and if there's anyone who wants to correct me on this, go right ahead. Only thing I ask is just that you have references for these rulings.
    ~ VioletValkyrie
     
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  3. The Almighty Bidoof Aspiring Trainer
    The Almighty Bidoof

    Member

    I believe VioletValkyrie is correct on both of these.
     
  4. AuraJackle Aspiring Trainer
    AuraJackle

    Member

    If someone plays are card down like and energy or tool if they let go you are perfectly in your rights to say they must keep to that play. However if they start to attach but dont take there hand off then pull it away that is allowed similar to how the rules of chess work.

    As far as changing your search target that is allowed up until the point where the search has taken to long or up until they place the card in their hand or offer you to cut.
     
  5. A Dragon of Destiny The Ultimate Dragon
    A Dragon of Destiny

    Member

    I would say that the play was illegal for two reasons:

    Firstly: the guzma was placed on the board and not into the hand, as it can be argued that it was played at that point. It could be said that this was a way to show that they got a supporter, but they still still let go of the card, making it played.

    Secondly and the most important: Your opponent started to shuffle their deck. I take this as a sign that a search is complete, which is why its always the last part of the search text of a card.
     
  6. PokeMedic Don't talk to me or my Pokemon ever again
    PokeMedic

    Articles Staff Activities Staff Member

    I believe that card isn't 'played' until a supporter is put into the hand, then the deck has to be shuffled. The player should be allowed to switch his target because he hasn't completed the instructions of Wonder Tag. Revealing a card isn't the same as putting it into your hand.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  7. mattfofatt01 Aspiring Trainer
    mattfofatt01

    Member

    I politely disagree with both of your points here.

    First: unless players have more than two hands it can be tough to hold onto a deck and a hand of cards and search a deck for a card without putting something down. Also lets say that a player slipped and dropped a card face up from their hand, can we assume that that card was meant to be played? I think not, so unless the card is announced as being played and displayed I don't feel that we can say that the card was played. If a player says, I play tapu lele and use wonder tag, I grab a guzma and am playing guzma, please bring X pokemon active, it is considered played. Versus if they say similar but do not add the I am playing guzma and so on it should be no issue. Additionally it can happen where Lele is searched for a card to be used next turn. IE we have a Lille in hand but want a guzma for next turn and want to stack the bench for a Zoroark attack, the player has the right to search a card, reveal it put it on the table while he shuffles his/her deck, have the opponent cut and he places the supporter selected into the hand and play a completely different supporter

    Second: a shuffle is not complete until it is given over to an opponent to tap/shuffle/cut which can be followed by a cut of your own. Therefore if in a reasonable amount of time a person changes their card 4 times there should be no issue. Now if this is being done with malicious intent, such as announcing you are grabbing a judge to see an angry or happy reaction from an opponent, then grabbing a Cynthia when he makes a look that a judge would actually help his hand, that would be worthy of calling a judge.over.
     
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  8. James Kowalski Fastest player alive
    James Kowalski

    Member

    As soon as the decknis suffled the decision is final
     
  9. The Almighty Bidoof Aspiring Trainer
    The Almighty Bidoof

    Member

    You want to provide evidence to back-up this claim?
     
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  10. James Kowalski Fastest player alive
    James Kowalski

    Member

    So at worlds my opponent played nest ball (my win it in top 8) and she grabbed a xerneas raibow road and then decided to change and got a non nite March joltik then shuffled. I called a judge and he said it was OK to do that but when the deck is shuffled the decision is final.
    I have more examples that are from real tournaments
     
  11. PokeMedic Don't talk to me or my Pokemon ever again
    PokeMedic

    Articles Staff Activities Staff Member

    James is correct -the action is completed once the deck gets shuffled.
     
  12. AlphaVoxel a.k.a. Professor Rosewood
    AlphaVoxel

    Member

    So, as a judge/League Leader, I see this fairly often, and it is completely legal. Many of my players do this, and I do it as well. When playing/running tournaments, I generally consider a search of the deck complete or whatever is when they have finished shuffling, and put the deck back on the table (not sure what Pokemon's official ruling is, but I think it is somewhat similar). After that point, I no longer allow the deck to be searched by the effect of the card that was played (though in friendly matches, I do make exceptions on occasion).

    As far as putting the card on the table before playing it/putting it into the hand, my argument is this: they placed it onto the field likely in an attempt to make sure the opponent knew that they were grabbing a supporter. I see this quite often, and do this myself, especially with larger searched (Steven's Resolve, Algorithm-GX, etc.) as it gives me the opportunity to make sure I grab the cards I need, and have the opportunity to change things if necessary. When using Steven/Algorithm, I will always place things onto the table/playmat face-down, until I have searched for what I want to search for. After that, I place the cards into my hand (which, I would argue, also finalizes the search), shuffle my deck, and go from there. I don't always do this with Lele/Jirachi or whatever else I'm using to search at a given moment, but I have done it on occasion.
     
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  13. VioletValkyrie Maiden of Murder
    VioletValkyrie

    Chat Room Staff Member

    While I entirely agree with your post, I do want to quickly chime in and say this is a different scenario, as you're searching for the cards and putting them face-down. Something like Wonder Tag could possibly be done with malicious intent to check for a reaction from your opponent (Did they react in a certain way when I searched for one card rather than another?) and while I never mean to imply this is anyone's intent, it's simply something I've seen people do and should be addressed between you and your opponent at the time of the occurrence.
     
  14. PokeMedic Don't talk to me or my Pokemon ever again
    PokeMedic

    Articles Staff Activities Staff Member

    The Infamous N-baiting? We call that Wonder Shuffling in my part of the world.
     
  15. VioletValkyrie Maiden of Murder
    VioletValkyrie

    Chat Room Staff Member

    Sure, why not. That sounds like a pretty name.

    (Yeah, I guess that's another way of searching with malicious intent as well.)
     

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