Discussion What's the BDIF and How to Beat It.

Discussion in 'PTCG Competitive Play' started by Lord Goomy, May 5, 2018.

  1. Lord Goomy Got Goomies?
    Lord Goomy

    Member

    I firmly believe that one of the universal goals for rogue deck players like me is to beat the BDIF, a.k.a Best Deck in Format. Two problems ensue:
    What is the BDIF?
    How do we cream its crop? (In other words, how do we beat it?)

    Unlike the title says, however, this is a tier list with the BDIF in bold, the most fun deck (by vote) in italics, and rogue decks that could actually be in the tier list are underlined.

    Unlike @AFEX's thread about Standard budget decks, these are top-built meta decks.
    As suggestions are made, I will update this post's tier list.
    Said tier list is here:

    Tier 1:
    -Buzzwole GX Variants (weak to not dominating the field)
    -Zoroark GX (weak to ability lock)

    Tier 2:
    -Gardevoir GX (weak to inconsistent setup)
    -Dusk Mane Necrozma GX/Magnezone (weak to Fire types)
    -Greninja BREAK (weak to Giratina Promo)
    -VikaBulu (weak to large HP Pokémon)

    Tier 3:
    -

    Tier 4:
    -Quad Sylveon (weak to...?
    -Hoopa (weak to strong 1 Prize attackers)
    -Salazzle GX/Lurantis (weak to slow setups)

    Honorable Mention (Usually Prominent Techs)
    -To Garbodor for its powerful ability lock
    -To the above Salazzle GX/Lurantis for its rogue win ratio of 20/22 wins.


    If you suggest a deck, suggest what deck it is ('duh' implied), suggest what it's tier is, and most importantly, what you believe that deck's biggest weakness to be. (Type weakness too, but preferably game weakness.)
    Note that decks with many archetypes will just be under one name: all the Buzzwole variants will be simply "Buzzwole."

    Let’s hop to it!
    I'm not going to be trouble this time like the "dragon incident."
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2018


  2. Chicken Nugget Master I had the munchies when I came up with my username
    Chicken Nugget Master

    Member

    The way I see it, right now we have 2 BDIFs, Zoroark and Buzzwole.

    Then, we have 2 decks that are definitely tier 1, but are not the 'Best Deck' those being Garbodor and Vikavolt.

    Zoroark's biggest weakness is not so much that it is weak to Fighting (Although that is a major factor) but Ability Lock and Bench Reduction.

    Buzzwole's biggest weakness is (Again, not 100% it's weakness to Psychic, but that is still a major contribution) losing the ability to manipulate the field, so it cannot switch Pokémon (on both sides).

    In the current format, Abilities are huge, and most decks rely on Abilities to function, which is why decks like Garbodor (and Slaking in the future, I should imagine) are so popular because they can remove Abilities.

    Items are also a key feature, as a deck typically plays at least 5 items before they are fully set up (and more when they are finished setting up to maintain tempo)

    Special Energy is a big factor as well, and some decks rely more on Special Energy than others.

    When creating a deck to topple the 2 BDIFs, one should consider:

    - Ability Lock
    - Field Manipulation
    - Item Lock/Punishment
    - Special Energy Removal
    - Quick Setup

    I will work on a list that combines all of these things, and post it here or in the Deck Garage when it is finished.
     
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  3. TuxedoBlack Old School Player
    TuxedoBlack

    Member

    "Zoroark GX" and "Buzzwole GX" would encompass a variety of different deck variants. What particular deck variant are you including?
     
    Otaku likes this.
  4. Chicken Nugget Master I had the munchies when I came up with my username
    Chicken Nugget Master

    Member

    Lord Goomy did say to list all the different variants under one archetype, but I am mainly referring to Buzzwole/Lycanroc and Zoroark/Lucario, which are (undoubtedly) the best variants for each deck.
     
    Otaku likes this.
  5. biffthepotato It's Wednesday M'dudes
    biffthepotato

    Member

    The BDIFs are Zoroark GX/Gardevoir GX, Zoroark GX/Lycanroc GX (with new stuff), Sylveon GX, BuzzRoc, Naganadel GX, Espeon GX/Garbodor, and Attack Hoopa.

    How to beat these:

    Zoroark GX/Gardevoir GX - play Metagross GX or DM Necrozma GX (I personally play this and am not convinced that Buzzwole GX is a great counter for this)

    Zoroark GX/Lycanroc GX - Play Sylveon GX.

    Sylveon GX - Play Buzzwole GX, Metagross GX, Zoroark GX/Gardevoir GX, or Greninja Break.

    BuzzRoc - Play Zoroark GX (With a Mew EX, Espeon GX/Garbodor, Gardevoir GX, or other Physic stuff.

    Nagenedel GX - Play Zoroark GX (With Mew EX) and Parallel Cities in your decks.

    Espeon GX/Garbodor - Play Sylveon GX or other things that have decent mach-ups against this. (I don't have mush experience against this)

    Attack Hoopa - Play Zoroark GX/Lycanroc GX with baby Lycarocs from Forbidden light or Burning Shadows.


    Hope this helps. :)
     
  6. Chicken Nugget Master I had the munchies when I came up with my username
    Chicken Nugget Master

    Member

    Zoroark/Gardevoir: Too inconsistent and not enough power behind it.
    Zoroark/Lycanroc: Outclassed by ZoroPod, which is Outclassed by ZoroLuc. (Personal preference plays a part here, but I have played all of these variants and since swapping to ZoroLuc I haven't looked back.)
    Sylveon: Not enough going for it and win condition is subject to change, making it hard to pilot.
    Naganadel: Too easy to take down and is more inconsistent than you'd think.
    Attack Hoopa: With the right counters, it is too easy to take down.

    Metagross is quite frankly, the opposite of meta, and DM Necrozma is inconsistent. Greninja BRICK does as the name suggests, and can be shutdown by a single Giratina Promo.
    I'm not trying to disprove your opinions, rather I'm just providing the facts that the top players have decided upon.
     
    gumball51321 likes this.
  7. FrostBiter12 Upcoming Worlds Competitor!
    FrostBiter12

    Member

    Hey @Lord Goomy!

    When it comes to ranking decks, I personally don't believe there is a "BDIF". Instead, I find that there is more of a "triangle" at the top of the format, and this can be applied to almost every Standard format that has ever been. Currently, the three decks are Buzzwole GX variants, which beat Zoroark GX variants, which beat Garbodor variants, which return the favor and beat Buzzwole GX variants, restarting the cycle again. To give an example, Zoroark GX was at the top after Collinsville, IL Regionals and then fell to Buzzwole GX in Charlotte, NC Regionals. Afterwards, Garbodor took over in Portland, OR Regionals and the cycle was repeated once more. So, with this information, let me establish a "Tier 1" (listed in no particular order).

    Tier 1--------------------------------------------------------------

    (In the future when this triangle changes, which it will, to find the correct decks to insert, make sure all the decks in the triangle have at least one weakness and one advantage over the other decks. This will create a constant rotation of decks to show who is currently on top. An easier way of putting this is: Grass is weak to Fire, Fire is weak to Water, and Water is weak to Grass. This creates that cycle we're looking for.)

    Zoroark GX variants (Zoroark GX/Lycanroc GX, Zoroark GX/Lucario GX, and Zoroark GX/Golisopod GX are good examples)
    Buzzwole GX variants (Buzzwole GX/Lycanroc GX mainly)
    Garbodor variants (Espeon GX/Garbodor mainly)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    With that over with, let's move on. The next section of decks would include decks that are able to withstand opponents from Tier 1, but have a hard time with other decks in the format. For instance, Gardevoir GX is great against pretty much all three in Tier 1 (though the matches good go in either players favor), but decks such as Greninja Break and Dusk Mane Necrozma GX/Magnezone can be hard for it to handle. VikaBulu is definitely another deck I would rate as "Tier 2" since it has a good matchup with the Tier 1 decks and trouble with other decks in Tier 2. Using this knowledge, let's set up a "Tier 2" (listed in no particular order).


    Tier 2--------------------------------------------------------------

    (In the future, when establishing Tier 2 decks, look for decks that have a decent matchup against Tier 1 but are weak to other decks in Tier 2. For example, VikaBulu is great against Zoroark GX and Buzzwole GX variants, but weak to decks like Gardevoir GX. The decks below are in Tier 2 in my opinion, but there may be more that I'm missing. For now, I suggest these four.)

    VikaBulu
    Gardevoir GX
    Dusk Mane Necrozma GX/Magnezone
    Greninja Break

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    From now on, the Tiers will include a process similar to Tier 2: decent matchups to decks in the Tier above it but weak to decks in the same Tier as it. This means that decks in Tier 3 are good against decks in Tier 2 but weak to other decks in Tier 3. As for matchups outside of this spectrum, some may be decent but there should be an equal amount of advantages and weaknesses. For now, here are a few decks that fit this position (listed in no particular order).

    Tier 3---------------------------------------------------------------

    (Once again, there may be more decks in this Tier, but here are a few examples to give you a general idea of what to look for.)

    Offensive Hoopa
    Sylveon GX
    Turbo Fire

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This cycle of Tiers pretty much repeats until all existing decks have been ranked. Anyways, if you have any questions about this system or suggestions, just let me know and I'd be happy to answer!

    Hope this helps!
    ~FrostBiter12
     
  8. gumball51321 *thumbs up*
    gumball51321

    Member

    Yep, this about explains it.

    Although with Diantha and baby Sylveon, Sylveon becomes a cute deck. Grabbing your Hammers back and discarding supporters from your opponent's hand is solid.
     
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  9. gumball51321 *thumbs up*
    gumball51321

    Member

    Oh yeah, I've been looking into Garb partners that can utilize Trashalanche and balance consistency and damage with disruption. Stardust works perfectly into the mix, and teching a Baby Dusk Mane and playing Unit Energy also seems like a great idea on paper. I CAN DO THIS.
     
  10. biffthepotato It's Wednesday M'dudes
    biffthepotato

    Member


    Zoroark GX/Gardevoir GX inconsistent? That’s a lie. Say that to my 4-4 Zoroark Gx line. Bruh, Zoroark GX Lycanroc with new forbidden light stuff can beat ZoroPod any day of the week. Baby Lycanroc can 1HKO Zoroarks, watch and learn Sudowoodo can copy Riotous Beatings for fighting weakness, Lycanroc GX 1HKOs anything you want to bring up, and the only thing you can do is hit my Lycanrocs for weakness. It’s the same story when playing against ZoroLuc but you hit weakness against Zoroarks.

    Greninja Break doesn’t brick if you actually know how to make a good deck, DM Necrosma/Zoroark GX/Magnazone is very consistent, and I was just suggesting Metagross as s counter to Gardy, and not as s BDIF.
     
  11. Kietharr Aspiring Trainer
    Kietharr

    Member

    Right now Zoroark is the dominant attacker in the format despite Buzzwole having more CP winnings, Buzzwole's popularity and success is largely an artifact of Zoroark being what it is: The most consistent, most well rounded, easily paired and most easily teched deck archetype in the game. There simply is not a less conditional, more efficient 2HKO centric attacker than Zoroark and there is almost no way I can see for them to make one, this means to beat Zoroark you for the most part need to OHKO. That means hitting for weakness or hitting 210 damage. Another option is to have some form of ability control to remove the trade advantage. The final, least reliable way to deal with Zoroark is by stopping it from attacking via special energy disruption, parallel city or safeguard, though Zoroark in the hands of a good player will generally have ways to respond to those problems. Any deck that cannot do one of those things is not a deck worth mentioning in this meta, most Zoroark variants work to include one of those responses as well as a way to win mirrors. This leaves us a few decks worth mentioning

    Best overall response:
    Buzzwole Variants - Most efficient aggressive response to Zoroark, can attack faster and can, with Diancie, potentially OHKO for one energy on a basic, can also be played with Garbodor for ability disruption though most people agree this is strictly worse than playing an ability based Buzzwole deck with Lycanroc. Be on the lookout for Buzzwole/Weavile, it will definitely be a good deck post rotation but might come into prominence early since it's both effective against Zoroark and Ultra Necrozma.

    Honorable mentions:
    VikaBulu - Currently the best deck for hitting a neutral 210.
    Ultra Necrozma - The only deck from the new set that will be relevant imo, has a good chance of displacing Vikabulu as the best netural 210 deck due to consistency, only really having to contend with the metal energy issue

    Less good options:
    Dusk Mane - Similar to VikaBulu but less consistent in exchange for having a positive matchup against Gardevoir
    Ho-oh/Salazzle - Extremely dependent on winning the flip and getting a t1 Kiawe, without that it will lose 90% of the time.
    Gardevoir - Has resistance to Zoroark and can OHKO with Gallade, lower consistency overall due to stage 2 jank
    Greninja - Can make the math work and has ability disruption, but has always had major consistency issues
    Espeon-GX/Garbodor - Primarily used for its positive Buzzwole matchup, but it also has some legs to stand on against Zoroark with ability lock, I'd say that matchup is only slightly unfavorable for Espeon while most stage 1s have a very unfavorable matchup. Golisopod/Garbodor is also relatively good against Zoroark but doesn't have the same extreme advantage against Buzzwole.
    Glaceon-GX - Has had a kind of sputtering start against the deck it was designed to counter because Zoroark is just that good, but FOL gives us some new cards in Crasher Wake and Volcanion* that will help give it an edge. Greninja could also be used here, I've done a little testing and it feels too inconsistent but someone might find a better list than me, it's still theoretically appealing. Can be played with Barbaracle for special energy denial.
    Sylveon - Disrupts Zoroark's offensive options through special energy denial and parallel city, but is more conditional than Zoroark overall.
    Hoopa - Safeguard stops Zoroark from attacking. Hoopa mill will almost always lose to Zoroark that run fighting basics like Riolu or Rockruff, Aggro Hoopa has better chances but can still suffer from strong energy Riolus. Any variants without those basic fighting types will have an extremely hard time dealing with Hoopa though.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  12. AFEX Serena is too cute!
    AFEX

    Member

    Sooo Goomster Woomster, your trying to tell me budget decks arent BDIF'S?

    SYLVEON AND GRENINJA BREAK, I CHOOSE YOU!!!

    In all seriousness, Greninja may rotate but Sylveon deserves a Tier 2 spot.

    Eh hem @The Last Shaymin :D

    Oh and by the way Goomy, I think the comparison you made between my thread, and "Top Built Meta Decks" was extremely disrespectful, you basically just offended my whole team, and the people who built some of those decks, by inferring they weren't "Top Built". They may not be the best, but that comparison was unesecary. That was genuinely uncalled for. It just makes you look selfish. Your character really came into question there. Im hurt you would say something like that, and leap to that. Im speechless. Im no trying to make you feel bad or hurt Goomy, Im just shocked you would say something like that.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  13. Chicken Nugget Master I had the munchies when I came up with my username
    Chicken Nugget Master

    Member

    I wouldn't know how to make a good Greninja Brick deck, not even I would stoop THAT low! Besides, I've never tried to anway. But seriously, you may not want to believe it and I get that, it's annoying when the decks you're passionate about become inferior, but the facts don't lie. When I referred to ZoroVoir as inconsistent, I meant to say that it doesn't physically win enough games to be considered as a 'good' Zoroark variant, purely because Zoroark sets the bar so high, and Gardevoir just doesn't clear it like the other decks do. Why else would the Three-Time International Champion decide to switch from Zoro/Voir back to Zoro/Pod, and prove that it is still good by winning Prague with it? Stage 2 decks like Gardevoir and Magnezone are naturally inconsistent, and although adding Zoroark does help, it doesn't magically fix all consistency issues and there will still be some turbulence along the way. Zoroark/Lycanroc is still a good deck, but when I said Zoro/Pod outclassed it, what I meant was it does better overall against the rest of the decks in the format, and played in the right hands (Norwegian hands, I should say) it simply performs better. I don't doubt that Zoro/Roc can beat Zoro/Pod, but I never implied that one could beat the other if they were pitted against each other. Don't take 'Outclassed' as meaning 'Could win against its superior variant' if I ever say it again in the future.
     
  14. TuxedoBlack Old School Player
    TuxedoBlack

    Member

    Based upon what criteria?
     
  15. Chicken Nugget Master I had the munchies when I came up with my username
    Chicken Nugget Master

    Member

    Oh, only the most recent major tournament results so feel free to disagree, also my opinion and personal preferences take part in it.
     
  16. Kietharr Aspiring Trainer
    Kietharr

    Member

    To be fair, there's no arguing that DM/Zoroark/Magnezone and Zoroark/Garde are less consistent than the double stage 1 variants just because of the stage 2 factor. Zoro/Goli has a very hard time dealing with Hoopa which IMO puts it solidly below Lycan and Lucario, the tradeoff there being Lycanroc's ability verses Lucario's attack OHKOing an opposing Zoroark for one attachment. Buzzwole only had two primary variants for most of its life, Buzz/Garb and Buzz/Lycan, both tournament results and the general experiences of good players say that Buzz/Garb is the worse of the two. I think that gap will expand in BKT-FOL due to Diancie being kind of a big deal. We'll get a new Buzzwole variant with Naganadel but I don't think it will even be as good as Buzz/Garb honestly.

    Also Greninja BREAK is an inherently inconsistent list, it's had that reputation for years even among the top players. Saying that it doesn't brick when built well is kind of silly because any deck can brick, and Greninja is more prone to it than just about any other deck that sees high tier play due to the effective stage 3 line it plays, each additional stage is only playable conditional on having had the prior stage benched at the end of your last turn, and even if it all goes right one Giratina promo basically invalidates your deck.
     
  17. gumball51321 *thumbs up*
    gumball51321

    Member

    You're talking about Pokemon that get OHKOd for 1 Energy and require 2 just to attack. ZoroRoc FBL is pretty bad. And Zoro/Gardy has only gotten 1 good placement since Portland, and in a tournament with less than 100 masters.

    And referencing that Greninja doesn't brick if you actually know how to build a deck sounds a bit rude. And no offense, but saying that like you're a master deckbuilder is kind of hard when you only have 30 CP in seniors :/
    EDIT: Believe me, I'm really not trying to start something, but it bothered me the way you came off.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2018
  18. FrostBiter12 Upcoming Worlds Competitor!
    FrostBiter12

    Member

    Hey @Kietharr!

    When it comes to Greninja Break, I have to agree with you on many of your points. The one thing that I think is missing though is that when you don't brick (which doesn't happen as often as you think, being a Greninja Break player myself), the match immediately moves into your favor (like how Greninja Break is able to beat VikaBulu). When building a list, if you can make it as consistent as possible, you will have less chance (that doesn't mean the scenario is removed) of bricking (I think this is the point @biffthepotato was trying to get across), which in turn increases your win rate. As for the Giratina PR, sometimes it is played, and sometimes it isn't, what really matters is when you decide to play Greninja Break in tournaments (not just randomly on PTCGO). If you play Greninja Break when it is popular, you will have a higher chance of running into a Giratina PR. If you play it when it isn't as popular, than you will most likely not run into one. Also, if you played Greninja Break in your last local tournament, definitely play something else for the next one because people will tech against you. So to further explain my point, Greninja Break is definitely a tacticians type of deck when it comes to shutting down your opponent and sniping bench-sitters, but it takes timing (as in knowing your local meta and when local players aren't expecting Greninja Break) and a bit of luck to get you the victory.

    Anyways, if something I've mentioned doesn't make sense, feel free to let me know and I would be happy to clarify!

    Thanks!
    ~FrostBiter12
     
  19. biffthepotato It's Wednesday M'dudes
    biffthepotato

    Member


    Sorry, I should have frased the Greninja thing a bit differently, and I meant that if you can FIND a good enough list, like the one in Charlottesville, then you won’t brick very often, and I only have 30 CP because unfortunately I have very packed weekends and don’t have time to travel around to league cups and stuff, but the 30 CP is only from 3 league cups so quit disrespecting my low points. Lol.

    Also, Lycanroc FBL 1HKOs Hoopas and Zoroarks with ease, and multi switch helps a lot with the attack cost, making it great in my oppinion.
    What results? Enlighten me. (Not meant in a rude way, just curious)
    Yes, this is why I was saying Greninja Break is good because almost nobody plays the Giratina promo anymore and it would be a good idea not to play Greninja multiple times in a row because you’ll get Teched against faster than you can say “Frogs!”
     
    FrostBiter12 likes this.
  20. gumball51321 *thumbs up*
    gumball51321

    Member

    Thank you for clarifying. I was scared I accidentally did start something. Good to know we're still on good terms.
     
    FrostBiter12 likes this.

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