Discussion What Will People do When Shaymin Rotates?

GekkisaiDaiNi

The Sharp Alien
Member
I've been thinking, and Shaymin has been such a huge part of deck building for so long, I really don't know what people will do. If Shaymin rotates, i'm sure Octillery will too. Not to mention, what about VS Seeker and Trainer's Mail? Or N? Or Sycamore? Or Acro Bike? We haven't been seeing many viable alternatives to these things. Tapu Lele is great, but when N and Sycamore rotate, what is it gonna search? Alolan Sandslash simply doesn't have the numbers and is a Stage One. Bewear is also Stage One and would require Deevolution Spray to use effectively. I think decks that want to use their GX attack ASAP (think Solgaleo) will benefit from Hala late game, but what about the all-important quick set up? Maybe Burning Shadows will have something. Or maybe the meta will completely shift. My point is that when Shaymin, VS Seeker, Sycamore, and all of those kinds of cards rotate, the meta will shift more than it did when these cards were released in the first place. I think the next rotation will be the most meta-shifting in a long time. I mean, what would you do without Shaymin? Think about it. It's inevitable that Shaymin will rotate. Where the meta will be after the fact is what I want to know.
 

WastedSkyPirate

...
Member
The question here is whether TPCi will be replacing Shaymin-EX with an equally powerful consistency card - the answer is "probably not". However, we're still quite far away from a rotation and we'll have more sets dropping in the meantime, so it's impossible to give a definitive answer. Though the indications are there that Tapu Lele-GX will be the consistency card and, instead of heavily relying on Pokemon-based draw, we'll have a slower game with a wider variety of Supporters.

On that note, keep an eye on the Supporters that are being printed in each new set because, at this rate, we may be heading towards a format without the "Discard your hand and draw 7 cards" Supporter that's been a staple for most of the TCG's lifespan. Personally, I think it would be a refreshing change.

EDIT: Fingers crossed that Tapu Lele-GX is released as a tin Promo. The Tapu Bulu and Tapu Koko tins are about to land so, thinking about this logically (dangerous, I know), we may get Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele tins next. That would also be welcomed as TPCi would be making the main consistency card more accessible for the masses (one of the biggest complaints against Shaymin-EX is its price/availability).
 

GekkisaiDaiNi

The Sharp Alien
Member
The question here is whether TPCi will be replacing Shaymin-EX with an equally powerful consistency card - the answer is "probably not". However, we're still quite far away from a rotation and we'll have more sets dropping in the meantime, so it's impossible to give a definitive answer. Though the indications are there that Tapu Lele-GX will be the consistency card and, instead of heavily relying on Pokemon-based draw, we'll have a slower game with a wider variety of Supporters.

On that note, keep an eye on the Supporters that are being printed in each new set because, at this rate, we may be heading towards a format without the "Discard your hand and draw 7 cards" Supporter that's been a staple for most of the TCG's lifespan. Personally, I think it would be a refreshing change.

EDIT: Fingers crossed that Tapu Lele-GX is released as a tin Promo. The Tapu Bulu and Tapu Koko tins are about to land so, thinking about this logically (dangerous, I know), we may get Tapu Fini and Tapu Lele tins next. That would also be welcomed as TPCi would be making the main consistency card more accessible for the masses (one of the biggest complaints against Shaymin-EX is its price/availability).
I think it may just be me, ive only played the game since BREAKpoint was released. I honestly don't know what a slower game will look like. A Tapu Lele tin would be awesome though, I would totally buy that. My friend actually gave me a Shaymin because he thought it stunk lol. Otherwise I wouldn't even have one lol. Even if a Tapu Lele tin was a thing, they would fly off the shelves, meaning every tin except the first batch would be like seventy bucks. Something i've been thinking about is Mallow combined with things like Acro Bike, Trainers Mail, Energy Lotto, and other previously luck-based cards, with the only Pokemon essential to it would be Lele to search for Mallow. However, all of the above except for Energy Lotto seem to be rotating so I guess it doesn't matter. What would a slower game look like though?
 

TuxedoBlack

Old School Player
Member
So when will the rotation take place? Next year? The year after?
As in the past, card sets rotation (i.e., "x" number of the current, older sets are no longer legal in Standard format sanctioned tournament play) typically takes place after the World tournament in late August/early September each year. Note: keep your older cards till after the official announcement; you may find that by then some of your older cards couid be reprinted (thus legal going forward) in upcoming new sets.
 

CrazyIvan

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Just going to start off by saying Sycamore and N won't be rotating out in the next rotation, so we have a few more sets to be released before we need to worry about them. For those that don't know, the next rotation will likely be at the end of this coming August and usually drops the 4 oldest sets. That's usually what has always happened most years. So the next format will likely be BREAKpoint-on.

In terms of deck building I can tell you what it was like before Shaymin-EX was a thing. One of the main things is that most of your decks draw will have to come in the form of Supporters. This means that any Supporter that doesn't draw cards will likely see a lot less play than they do now, since if you play a non-draw supporter you probably aren't going to be drawing cards on the turn, which can be a big tempo loss. This will be especially true with the rotation of VS Seeker, which is another major reason that so many decks can get away with playing '1 of' tech Supporters like they currently do. Because of this Tapu Lele-GX will definitely be a solid card for a lot of decks as Jirachi-EX from the Plasma Blast set was back in it's time. Having more HP and a decent attack actually makes Tapu Lele way better than Jirachi was.

The next thing is that very simple decks that hit hard with not much set-up will likely see a lot more play. These decks used to be referred to as 'Big Basics' and basically just play strong EX pokémon that just have hard hitting attacks. Decks that literally just attach energy and hit you. Because players won't be able to have the huge first turns that they can currently, it will slow down the first couple of turns of the game, which will in turn make 'set-up' attacks a lot more powerful, especially ones that let you look for cards in your deck. Stuff like Xerneas' Geomancy or Frogadier's Water Duplicates spring to mind.

Decks that require a lot more set-up will have to be very powerful once they are set-up to be worth playing. In the past this has usually meant that heavy set-up decks have to be capable of scoring OHKOs turn after turn once set up. Heavy set-up decks that exist now such as Decidueye/Vileplume will likely be the biggest hit by the rotation especially since Forest of Giant Plants will also be rotating. Running two Stage-2 lines in the past has never usually been a good idea and it's only really the combination of Forest and Shaymin that have really made it viable.

Just a small bit of incite from the past. Hope it helps.
 
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Blob55

Aspiring Trainer
Member
As in the past, card sets rotation (i.e., "x" number of the current, older sets are no longer legal in Standard format sanctioned tournament play) typically takes place after the World tournament in late August/early September each year. Note: keep your older cards till after the official announcement; you may find that by then some of your older cards couid be reprinted (thus legal going forward) in upcoming new sets.
I know, that, I'm just wondering if the whole of BW will be gone in August on, or if it's half of it or if any sets are going at all.
 

GekkisaiDaiNi

The Sharp Alien
Member
Just going to start off by saying Sycamore and N won't be rotating out in the next rotation, so we have a few more sets to be released before we need to worry about them. For those that don't know, the next rotation will likely be at the end of this coming August and usually drops the 4 oldest sets. That's usually what has always happened most years. So the next format will likely be BREAKpoint-on.

In terms of deck building I can tell you what it was like before Shaymin-EX was a thing. One of the main things is that most of your decks draw will have to come in the form of Supporters. This means that any Supporter that doesn't draw cards will likely see a lot less play than they do now, since if you play a non-draw supporter you probably aren't going to be drawing cards on the turn, which can be a big tempo loss. This will be especially true with the rotation of VS Seeker, which is another major reason that so many decks can get away with playing '1 of' tech Supporters like they currently do. Because of this Tapu Lele-GX will definitely be a solid card for a lot of decks as Jirachi-EX from the Plasma Blast set was back in it's time. Having more HP and a decent attack actually makes Tapu Lele way better than Jirachi was.

The next thing is that very simple decks that hit hard with not much set-up will likely see a lot more play. These decks used to be referred to as 'Big Basics' and basically just play strong EX pokémon that just have hard hitting attacks. Decks that literally just attach energy and hit you. Because players won't be able to have the huge first turns that they can currently, it will slow down the first couple of turns of the game, which will in turn make 'set-up' attacks a lot more powerful, especially ones that let you look for cards in your deck. Stuff like Xerneas' Geomancy or Frogadier's Water Duplicates spring to mind.

Decks that require a lot more set-up will have to be very powerful once they are set-up to be worth playing. In the past this has usually meant that heavy set-up decks have to be capable of scoring OHKOs turn after turn once set up. Heavy set-up decks that exist now such as Decidueye/Vileplume will likely be the biggest hit by the rotation especially since Forest of Giant Plants will also be rotating. Running two Stage-2 lines in the past has never usually been a good idea and it's only really the combination of Forest and Shaymin that have really made it viable.

Just a small bit of incite from the past. Hope it helps.
Thank you, that helps alot. So what your saying is things like Lysandre, Hex Maniac, and Delinquent will see less play because of the loss of drawpower? Also, what about decks like Vespiquen that stream attackers over an over again to win the prize trades? Will that kind of deck become obsolete when Shaymin rotates? Thanks for explaining about what the game was like before Shaymin, it really helped :).
 

CrazyIvan

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Thank you, that helps alot. So what your saying is things like Lysandre, Hex Maniac, and Delinquent will see less play because of the loss of drawpower?

Pretty much. With no other options to reliably draw cards, draw supporters become the only decent solution. Playing a Hex Maniac to disable abilities for a single turn starts to look pretty bad when your opponent plays a draw supporter for the turn and carries on with their set-up. You might stall them slightly for a turn, but you've lost a turn when you could have been drawing more cards and your opponent hasn't. VS Seeker also let you be more versatile with these cards so that you could just discard them and then get them back at a more opportune time. Without Shaymin your draw becomes less reliable if you play non-draw supporters. Without VS Seeker you'll end up ditching half of them in favour of playing a Sycamore and no longer have a reliable way of retrieving them.

Also, what about decks like Vespiquen that stream attackers over an over again to win the prize trades? Will that kind of deck become obsolete when Shaymin rotates?

Decks like Vespiquen can still do OK. The important thing is that the set-up not be too heavy. Usually this will mean being a single energy attacker and no more than a Stage 1, like Vespiquen is. You said that you started playing in BREAKpoint so you may not be aware that there used to be a Plasma Flareon deck that was essentially the same sort of deck that Vespiquen is (it's from the Plasma Freeze set if you want to look it up). It was relatively easy to set up, being only a Stage 1; could be easily searched for with Ultra Ball or Team Plasma Ball; and required a single DCE to attack. With no card like Shaymin-EX in the format it still performed pretty well with the help of some favourable match-ups against decks like Genesect/Virizion which were popular at the time. A deck like this in the current game would be the new Garbador deck from Guardians Rising. A solid single energy attack negating the downside of low HP and letting you get those favourable prize exchanges. I expect this deck to still be a big player after the rotation hits.
 

GekkisaiDaiNi

The Sharp Alien
Member
Pretty much. With no other options to reliably draw cards, draw supporters become the only decent solution. Playing a Hex Maniac to disable abilities for a single turn starts to look pretty bad when your opponent plays a draw supporter for the turn and carries on with their set-up. You might stall them slightly for a turn, but you've lost a turn when you could have been drawing more cards and your opponent hasn't. VS Seeker also let you be more versatile with these cards so that you could just discard them and then get them back at a more opportune time. Without Shaymin your draw becomes less reliable if you play non-draw supporters. Without VS Seeker you'll end up ditching half of them in favour of playing a Sycamore and no longer have a reliable way of retrieving them.



Decks like Vespiquen can still do OK. The important thing is that the set-up not be too heavy. Usually this will mean being a single energy attacker and no more than a Stage 1, like Vespiquen is. You said that you started playing in BREAKpoint so you may not be aware that there used to be a Plasma Flareon deck that was essentially the same sort of deck that Vespiquen is (it's from the Plasma Freeze set if you want to look it up). It was relatively easy to set up, being only a Stage 1; could be easily searched for with Ultra Ball or Team Plasma Ball; and required a single DCE to attack. With no card like Shaymin-EX in the format it still performed pretty well with the help of some favourable match-ups against decks like Genesect/Virizion which were popular at the time. A deck like this in the current game would be the new Garbador deck from Guardians Rising. A solid single energy attack negating the downside of low HP and letting you get those favourable prize exchanges. I expect this deck to still be a big player after the rotation hits.
Thank you! I just played against that, thankfully I can trade evenly with it because I use Vespiquen as my deck, but I ran out of resources and lost. Thing's a monster, gotta get my hands on it. I have seen Team Plasma Flareon before because I remember looking up Vespiquen and seeing a deck that used Team Plasma Flareon AND Vespiquen. What about cards like Golisopod? I've been messing around with a Golisopod/Vespiquen deck in PTCGO, it only uses one shaymin, and it works extremely well. It took someone two whole Mewtwo-EXs to get rid of the thing, and by that point I had three Vespiquens on the bench and did 230 damage with one of them and won the prize trade 0-5. Thanks for all the help again :).
 

CrazyIvan

Aspiring Trainer
Member
I think Golisopod is pretty strong, especially with the new Choice Band attached. I think one of the best parts of it is that its attack hits both EX and GX pokémon, so it's good against both older and newer cards. I was thinking of pairing it with Lurantis-GX since Golisopod is a bit slower to set-up. I can see it working pretty well with Vespiquen though since they're both solid grass pokémon.
 

GekkisaiDaiNi

The Sharp Alien
Member
I think Golisopod is pretty strong, especially with the new Choice Band attached. I think one of the best parts of it is that its attack hits both EX and GX pokémon, so it's good against both older and newer cards. I was thinking of pairing it with Lurantis-GX since Golisopod is a bit slower to set-up. I can see it working pretty well with Vespiquen though since they're both solid grass pokémon.
I was thinking the new Rayquaza from Guardians Rising, should test that. I think the best thing about Golisopod is that, unlike most of the anti-EX/GX cards, its actually pretty tanky. The problem with it, though, is it's complete trash against, say, Passimian/Mew, so maybe something like Rayquaza(or Lurantis)/GUR Garbodor/Golisopod would be neat. Could be too many different types of Energy though, DCE, Grass and Psychic. Anyways, I'm kind of veering off the topic lol. I think we'll be seeing the last of the next-gen supporters with Burning Shadows, maybe the set after that. If Shaymin rotates and Octillery doesnt, and we get thrown into a slower format, I think Octillery will become much more mainstream. Maybe Octillery/Tapu Lele will become a thing?
 

Ecourts

Wanderer | Lvl.2
Member
Just going to start off by saying Sycamore and N won't be rotating out in the next rotation, so we have a few more sets to be released before we need to worry about them. For those that don't know, the next rotation will likely be at the end of this coming August and usually drops the 4 oldest sets. That's usually what has always happened most years. So the next format will likely be BREAKpoint-on.

In terms of deck building I can tell you what it was like before Shaymin-EX was a thing. One of the main things is that most of your decks draw will have to come in the form of Supporters. This means that any Supporter that doesn't draw cards will likely see a lot less play than they do now, since if you play a non-draw supporter you probably aren't going to be drawing cards on the turn, which can be a big tempo loss. This will be especially true with the rotation of VS Seeker, which is another major reason that so many decks can get away with playing '1 of' tech Supporters like they currently do. Because of this Tapu Lele-GX will definitely be a solid card for a lot of decks as Jirachi-EX from the Plasma Blast set was back in it's time. Having more HP and a decent attack actually makes Tapu Lele way better than Jirachi was.

The next thing is that very simple decks that hit hard with not much set-up will likely see a lot more play. These decks used to be referred to as 'Big Basics' and basically just play strong EX pokémon that just have hard hitting attacks. Decks that literally just attach energy and hit you. Because players won't be able to have the huge first turns that they can currently, it will slow down the first couple of turns of the game, which will in turn make 'set-up' attacks a lot more powerful, especially ones that let you look for cards in your deck. Stuff like Xerneas' Geomancy or Frogadier's Water Duplicates spring to mind.

Decks that require a lot more set-up will have to be very powerful once they are set-up to be worth playing. In the past this has usually meant that heavy set-up decks have to be capable of scoring OHKOs turn after turn once set up. Heavy set-up decks that exist now such as Decidueye/Vileplume will likely be the biggest hit by the rotation especially since Forest of Giant Plants will also be rotating. Running two Stage-2 lines in the past has never usually been a good idea and it's only really the combination of Forest and Shaymin that have really made it viable.

Just a small bit of incite from the past. Hope it helps.

I agree with nearly everything you've stated; this is a well written and informed post~

We will most likely be playing with BREAKpoint and up, as such, I expect a few changes in deck "staples."
Namely, swapping out VS Seeker for Puzzle of Time.
This allows you to either: manipulate your draw (helpful in a slower format).
or
Retrieve Supporters (or anything else) from your discard~

As for Shaymin... The closest thing we'll have is probably Oranguru.
This leads me to believe that, there will be a lot more planning involved with how you maintain your hand.
This also encourages Puzzle of Time's play.
Here's an example scenario: You have 3 cards in hand, 1 of which is puzzle of time.
You can play your Puzzle, and essentially pick which card (of the 3) you want to draw from Oranguru.

Oranguru could also encourage cards like Maitenence and Pokedex to see play.

Aside from that, Lele + Draw supporter will most likely be the norm.

Sidenote: Decidueye/Vileplume will no longer be standard, as the latter of the two will be rotating with FoGP~
 

CrazyIvan

Aspiring Trainer
Member
Octillery may see some play, but only in decks that can easily fit it into their lists. The problem with Octillery is that you'll likely have to search for both parts of it to get it into play in the first place where you could have searched for something more beneficial, such as an attacker. The card more likely to be used will be Oranguru as Ecourts says since it's only a basic and much easier to use.

Namely, swapping out VS Seeker for Puzzle of Time.

The main problem with Puzzle of Time is that it's going to be quite difficult to ever get 2 of them in your hand at once without lucking into it. Shaymin-EX actually made Puzzle a lot better since you could just hold one of them in your hand as you continually drew up to 6, making it far more likely that you'd hit the second. Most draw-supporters either shuffle your hand back in or discard your hand, both of which don't consistently help you get 2 Puzzles. I guess playing just one Puzzle at a time still wouldn't be too bad though especially if you were to play Oranguru or something similar as it could majorly improve the few extra cards you do draw, but I don't think you'll be able to reliably use it to retrieve cards from the discard without getting a bit lucky.

Sidenote: Decidueye/Vileplume will no longer be standard, as the latter of the two will be rotating with FoGP~

I mainly meant to suggest that decks with a lot of set-up would suffer and used that as an example of such a deck, but you are of course right that Vileplume does rotate.
 

Ecourts

Wanderer | Lvl.2
Member
The main problem with Puzzle of Time is that it's going to be quite difficult to ever get 2 of them in your hand at once without lucking into it. Shaymin-EX actually made Puzzle a lot better since you could just hold one of them in your hand as you continually drew up to 6, making it far more likely that you'd hit the second. Most draw-supporters either shuffle your hand back in or discard your hand, both of which don't consistently help you get 2 Puzzles. I guess playing just one Puzzle at a time still wouldn't be too bad though especially if you were to play Oranguru or something similar as it could majorly improve the few extra cards you do draw, but I don't think you'll be able to reliably use it to retrieve cards from the discard without getting a bit lucky.

Though that may be true, we don't really have a better option available; Pal Pad has rotated as well.

I mainly meant to suggest that decks with a lot of set-up would suffer and used that as an example of such a deck, but you are of course right that Vileplume does rotate.

I think the meta, after rotation, will largely revolve around Pokemon that can get set-up without relying on other support.
Pokemon like: Lapras-GX, Sylveon-GX, etc.

Octillery may see some play, but only in decks that can easily fit it into their lists. The problem with Octillery is that you'll likely have to search for both parts of it to get it into play in the first place where you could have searched for something more beneficial, such as an attacker. The card more likely to be used will be Oranguru as Ecourts says since it's only a basic and much easier to use.


Also, Octillery will rotate with BREAKthrough~

This won't be a problem for any player who played the game before BW dropped.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: Shaymin was not the first with this ability~
 
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GekkisaiDaiNi

The Sharp Alien
Member
Though that may be true, we don't really have a better option available; Pal Pad has rotated as well.



I think the meta, after rotation, will largely revolve around Pokemon that can get set-up without relying on other support.
Pokemon like: Lapras-GX, Sylveon-GX, etc.




Also, Octillery will rotate with BREAKthrough~



Oh, and I forgot to mention: Shaymin was not the first with this ability~
Yeah, even though ive only played since BREAKpoint, I know Uxie ;)
 

crystal_pidgeot

Bird Trainer *Vaporeon on PokeGym*
Member
@Ecourts I'm aware of that but unlike the format now, D/P/Pt was a much slower format with less powerful cards so the draw power wasn't as good.
 

Ecourts

Wanderer | Lvl.2
Member
Probably a dumb question, but will the Best of XY set not effect rotation?

Best of XY is a Japan only set.
We're getting the cards as "alternate artworks," meaning they will share the same set number as their counterparts, and are not being re-introduced into the format.
 
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